Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #20

[emyr]

I rented a room in a house that was burglarized in the 1970s. The burglar stole one pair of jeans (French cut, slightly more expensive than regular blue jeans) from me.

I called the owner of the house the other day and he can't even remember what was taken from him, whatever it was was of such low value. But TVs, radios and jewelry were left behind.

Not every burglar is like a master criminal from the movies. In fact, I've heard (sorry, don't have a link) that most burglaries are crimes of opportunity, rather casually carried out.

When my house was robbed, they ignored the small painting on the wall (worth thousands) and stole a drawer full of loose change (mostly pennies, but I'd guess about 20 pounds worth. I always laugh thinking of them hauling around those pennies). They only broke through the bedrooms as there were typically alarms on the other doors.

 

[emyr]

I find that unlikely as well. He knew both Knox and Meredith and seemed to like them - why would he break into their place. They were students, meaning they probably had very little in belongings beyond clothes and books. If someone is going to take the trouble to break into a place, why not at the very least be sure that there's something worth stealing. Rent money being in the cottage on the night of Nov 1 was certainly a very big "if" regardless of whether the rent was due during business hours on Nov 1 or on the next business day. There was something to steal in Filomina's room (laptop, jewelery) and most likely also in Laura's room, but nothing was taken from those rooms. In fact, it seemed that the "burglar" was very considerate and didn't want to disturb the bedrooms of Knox and Laura.

The whole burglary thing falls through for me. If the point of entry was Filomina's bedroom, her jewelery should have been stolen (fits easily into a pocket). The laptop fits easily into a backpack. The laptop wasn't even taken out of the room - where an encounter with Meredith could have occurred. Instead, clothes were thrown on the floor ... as Filomina said "what a stupid burglar."

So why are his fingerprints on Meredith's purse? If he went there because he was invited, and accidentally participated in a spur-of-the-moment murder, would he rifle through her purse at the end? And how does this fit with the theory that Amanda and Raffaelle had to be the ones who took the cell phones? If we know Rudy's fingerprints are on Meredith's purse, then it's clear he took the items from her purse. Why wouldn't he take her cell phones, and then dump them? Amanda and Raffaelle were found guilty of stealing those phones by Massai, yet there is clear and concise evidence that Rudy stole the phones. So what's the deal?

 

[RWright]

Some of the things I find particularly troubling are the choice of windows, the failure to even attempt to take the laptop and the locking of Meredith's door. If the narrative is that Rudy broke in to burgle, why did he not pick up that computer or rifle through Filomena's drawers? Why would he pull clothes out of the cabinets? If the laptop had been found in another room, even the bathroom for Pete's sake, I think it would look more realistic. Why would he climb up to break in up there when he could have entered the downstairs flat so much easier? And really, look at the climb up to that patio area. It just bothers me because I cannot put all the pieces together without having one or two either left over or jammed into place.

FH

Hi Frankie Hellis,
I'm a 1st time poster, but debate elsewhere about this brutal murder case, so I am up to speed, so to say...

I too had doubts about the Rudy as a burglar theory.
Until I read on PMF.org about a home burglary that happened to a regular contributor named Thoughful,
who helped that pro-guilt website translate the Massei Report from Italian to English.
Thoughtful, who lives in Italy*, had her place broken into back in March 3rd of this year and she wrote this:

Came home last night to find...the door slightly open. Scary.
(Although if I were sharing a flat with other people and the door was broken, I suppose it would have seemed less unusual.) Still, it is strange. I went in with the twins. The living room was eerily still. But upstairs was chaos, all the drawers dumped out, jewelry and money stolen. Computers untouched and nothing broken, however. Police...fingerprints...insurance...it's all quite depressing. A neighbor looking out of her window saw a woman walking around the house peering into the windows while we were out.

and this:

Thanks for all the sympathetic messages! This morning a police team came with their fingerprint kits. I'm not sure they found much, though. When things are tossed around, not too many solid fingerprints are left.

Anyway, it was interesting because as soon as I realized someone had been in the house, I immediately checked for two things: the computers and the money. It so happened that there was a lump of cash in the house - there usually isn't, but it was a matter of rent. Well, the computers were there, but the money was gone.

Now I feel certain that in checking her room, Amanda would have immediately checked those same two things: computer and rent money. It was just too spontaneous with me - the computer! the cash! Only afterwards did I start looking through the jewelry which had been tipped out on the bed. I bet Filomena did the same.

and in response to a question asked from another member about what kind of computers they were, Thoughtful mentioned this:

Portables. They're not even actually ours. We get them from work to let us work from home. I know nothing about computers but my daughters tell me they're very chic up-to-date Macs. Why?

As I don't live in Italy, I had wondered why Rudy Guede did not take the laptops? Surely they must have had some value, I would think. But then again, we do recall that he had just busted a short while earlier with a stolen laptop, so maybe he was learnin' lessons, so to say. IIRC, Rudy also did not steal the small digital camera that was on Filomena's messy table. I am guessing that the reason why was that he had not turned on the lights and seen it or that he just had not finished casing the inside of the girls apartment when he heard Meredith coming into her home...

Anyways, it does make sense that with rent due, and no job,
Rudy was only looking for $$$, not traceable laptops...
Take it easy, RW


* -Thoughtful has a daughter that recently got engaged to a guy that happens to personally know, of all people, Rudy Guede...

 

[Rolfe]

I had a burglary many years ago where the thieves took a bunch of cheap blank cassette tapes with classical music (recorded from the radio) on them, and left a gold necklace....

Actually, the evidence in my flat when I returned suggested that the burglars had fled mid-burglary, thinking they were about to be discovered. This wasn't the case, and in fact nobody noticed until I returned from a weekend away. But the open suitcase with more cheap cassettes in it suggested a hurried departure.

Consider. We may believe and suspect that Rudy broke in with the primary intention of stealing. However, he was disturbed in his intent by Meredith on her return home. However matters then transpired, the confrontation escalated into rape and murder. By the time Rudy left the cottage he wasn't a burglar departing with the spoils, he was a fleeing murderer.

Why is anyone even faintly surprised about anything he left behind? I'm merely slightly surprised that he took anything at all from the cottage after that, and not at all surprised that he seems to have jettisoned what he took at an early stage thereafter. The entire episode was inevitably such a shambles (literally, sadly), that nothing that was or wasn't taken or moved can be read as being evidence that a couple of students suddenly turned into crazed killers that evening.

 

[RoseMontague]

Hi Frankie Hellis,
I'm a 1st time poster, but debate elsewhere about this brutal murder case, so I am up to speed, so to say...

I too had doubts about the Rudy as a burglar theory.
Until I read on PMF.org about a home burglary that happened to a regular contributor named Thoughful,
who helped that pro-guilt website translate the Massei Report from Italian to English.
Thoughtful, who lives in Italy*, had her place broken into back in March 3rd of this year and she wrote this:

and this:

and in response to a question asked from another member about what kind of computers they were, Thoughtful mentioned this:


As I don't live in Italy, I had wondered why Rudy Guede did not take the laptops? Surely they must have had some value, I would think. But then again, we do recall that he had just busted a short while earlier with a stolen laptop, so maybe he was learnin' lessons, so to say. IIRC, Rudy also did not steal the small digital camera that was on Filomena's messy table. I am guessing that the reason why was that he had not turned on the lights and seen it or that he just had not finished casing the inside of the girls apartment when he heard Meredith coming into her home...

Anyways, it does make sense that with rent due, and no job,
Rudy was only looking for $$$, not traceable laptops...
Take it easy, RW


* -Thoughtful has a daughter that recently got engaged to a guy that happens to personally know, of all people, Rudy Guede...

And that daughter is getting a baby grand piano from thoughtful as a wedding present. I am jealous.

To me this is one of the strongest pieces of evidence against Guede. Not just a Y chromosome match but a full DNA match and a spot positive for blood on the purse.

But as Massei points out Meredith was on her bed for a couple of hours in her damp clothes playing with her cell phone and randomly pushing buttons so it does not mean Guede took them. When she got bored with that she was probably counting her money or something.

 

[SkewedView]

ummm I know

Since it is though my private asylum, on a caribbean island, with its' own jet, rubber staw hats, rubber wine bottles etc i chose straight jacket on purpose (a play on name since they are designer ones )

Hope SV that your wife is better!!!

All night in the emergency room (with an hour drive each way to get there) for a diagnosis of 'unexplained uterine bleeding' - in other words, no answers yet. More tests for her later in the week, so it's still wait and worry, and avoiding debates as I'm a bear right now.


To add to my commentary on Knox's ability to flee the rest of the appeals process, murder is a pretty much mandatory extraditable offense by the 1983 extradition treaty between the US and Italy. See here:

http://untreaty.un.org/unts/60001_120000/26/25/00051223.pdf

Given the State Dept.'s lack of interest in her case, and Italy's good standing with the US, I doubt that they would fight any extradition request made by the Italian government.

 

[SkewedView]

Huh, I just noticed that because Italy's Libel and Defamation laws allow sentences of greater than one year, those are extraditable offenses as well.

 

[RoseMontague]

Huh, I just noticed that because Italy's Libel and Defamation laws allow sentences of greater than one year, those are extraditable offenses as well.

Would this apply to Amanda's parents as well?

 

[SkewedView]

Would this apply to Amanda's parents as well?

Yep, and members of the US media, bloggers etc as well, though the latter would be draw the ire of too many human rights groups to be politically or diplomatically feasible, IMO.

 

[SunD]

Yep, and members of the US media, bloggers etc as well, though the latter would be draw the ire of too many human rights groups to be politically or diplomatically feasible, IMO.

I think that would apply pretty much to all these defamation cases. There is no way that the US is going to extradite anyone for a slander/defamation.

 

[SunD]

Yep, and members of the US media, bloggers etc as well, though the latter would be draw the ire of too many human rights groups to be politically or diplomatically feasible, IMO.

By the way, I think you are wrong that the defamation charges are extraditable offenses. Here is the extradition treaty between the United States and Italy.

Article II states:

"1. An offense, however denominated, shall be an extraditable
offense only if it is punishable under the laws of both Contracting
Parties: by deprivation of liberty for a period of more than one year
or by a more severe penalty. When the request for extradition
relates to a person who has been sentenced, extradition shall be
granted only if the duration of the penalty still to be served
amounts to at least six months."

There are no federal criminal defamation or insult laws in the United States (there are some state levels). Therefore, I don't believe they can even be theoretically extradited by the federal government, since there is not an equivalent federal law. The treaty seems pretty straight forward "only if punishable under the laws of both Contracting Parties", those parties being the United States and Italy.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

To me this is one of the strongest pieces of evidence against Guede. Not just a Y chromosome match but a full DNA match and a spot positive for blood on the purse.

RoseMontague,

I am having trouble reading/comprehending your thumbnails. What is the indication that it is a full match, not just a YSTR match?

 

[RoseMontague]

RoseMontague,

I am having trouble reading/comprehending your thumbnails. What is the indication that it is a full match, not just a YSTR match?

It's the first line in that column. I can send you the egrams if you want.

 

[Nova]

That is correct, though they can in the meantime ask for an emergency preventative detention order to prevent flight before the appeals process is truly completed. I don't know why the media is ignoring this key aspect of the Italian system (much fewer limits on preventative detention than most other EU nations), but if it were to be granted, it would very likely be in the form of house arrest this time, given the PR nightmare Italy has already been put through.

Sorry I haven't been posting the past few days and most likely won't for a while yet, my wife is ill and I don't have the patience to debate in a civilized fashion at the moment.

SV, I'm so sorry to hear about your wife. Please know that you and she are in our thoughts and prayers.

 

[SkewedView]

By the way, I think you are wrong that the defamation charges are extraditable offenses. Here is the extradition treaty between the United States and Italy.

Article II states:

"1. An offense, however denominated, shall be an extraditable
offense only if it is punishable under the laws of both Contracting
Parties: by deprivation of liberty for a period of more than one year
or by a more severe penalty. When the request for extradition
relates to a person who has been sentenced, extradition shall be
granted only if the duration of the penalty still to be served
amounts to at least six months."

There are no federal criminal defamation or insult laws in the United States (there are some state levels). Therefore, I don't believe they can even be theoretically extradited by the federal government, since there is not an equivalent federal law. The treaty seems pretty straight forward "only if punishable under the laws of both Contracting Parties", those parties being the United States and Italy.

Doh! Right you are...the hazards of posting while helping my daughter with completely unrelated homework I guess.

SV, I'm so sorry to hear about your wife. Please know that you and she are in our thoughts and prayers.

Thank you. It's probably nothing, but being that it involves her plumbing, so to speak, well, that's extra cause for worry. A woman's reproductive system is a wonder of nature, but it can go catastrophically wrong so quickly...add in my notorious over-protectiveness, and you get one touchy papa-bear.

 

[js202]

I think that would apply pretty much to all these defamation cases. There is no way that the US is going to extradite anyone for a slander/defamation.

Concur. But that won't be necessary for Ganong or Quennell, thankfully.

BTW, is that a young Robbie Robertson in your sig photo? Awesome.

 

[Allusonz]

All night in the emergency room (with an hour drive each way to get there) for a diagnosis of 'unexplained uterine bleeding' - in other words, no answers yet. More tests for her later in the week, so it's still wait and worry, and avoiding debates as I'm a bear right now.


To add to my commentary on Knox's ability to flee the rest of the appeals process, murder is a pretty much mandatory extraditable offense by the 1983 extradition treaty between the US and Italy. See here:

http://untreaty.un.org/unts/60001_120000/26/25/00051223.pdf

Given the State Dept.'s lack of interest in her case, and Italy's good standing with the US, I doubt that they would fight any extradition request made by the Italian government.

Oh my SV many thoughts and prayers your way and hoping that everything turns out well. From personal experience I understand when things do not go quite so well but am blessed with 2 adopted children thus I am fortunate. (They may disagree at times though lol)

Thanks for the infomation I know this is an area you have studied greatly!!!
{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}} to the entire family

 

[SunD]

Doh! Right you are...the hazards of posting while helping my daughter with completely unrelated homework I guess.






Thank you. It's probably nothing, but being that it involves her plumbing, so to speak, well, that's extra cause for worry. A woman's reproductive system is a wonder of nature, but it can go catastrophically wrong so quickly...add in my notorious over-protectiveness, and you get one touchy papa-bear.

No worries.

 

[Allusonz]

By the way, I think you are wrong that the defamation charges are extraditable offenses. Here is the extradition treaty between the United States and Italy.

Article II states:

"1. An offense, however denominated, shall be an extraditable
offense only if it is punishable under the laws of both Contracting
Parties: by deprivation of liberty for a period of more than one year
or by a more severe penalty. When the request for extradition
relates to a person who has been sentenced, extradition shall be
granted only if the duration of the penalty still to be served
amounts to at least six months."

There are no federal criminal defamation or insult laws in the United States (there are some state levels). Therefore, I don't believe they can even be theoretically extradited by the federal government, since there is not an equivalent federal law. The treaty seems pretty straight forward "only if punishable under the laws of both Contracting Parties", those parties being the United States and Italy.

I have often wondered of late whether the so far very quiet US embassy might step in (note the might) if there is an overturn of the conviction

I am thinking that both families are probably very aware of what could be tossed at them by the prosecution therefore am even going to include RS's family here. What I don't know is what if anything could be done as it is not something I have researched

 

[SunD]

Concur. But that won't be necessary for Ganong or Quennell, thankfully.

BTW, is that a young Robbie Robertson in your sig photo? Awesome.

Ya. I was going to choose Bob Dylan from 1966, but I thought it was a little too mainstream for an avatar.