Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox Conviction Overturned #22

[sherlockh]

Argh. You got me. I'm going off of memory and I thought I remembered everyone saying there was CCTV footage that came out showing Knox exiting a black car at 8:53 pm. (the woman in white footage). Did that not have a black car in it?

The CCTV image doesn't show the gate so we can't really say when he parked his car, but he did testify that he was on the way to a bar at about 9:30pm when he bumped into the 3. Then the tow truck guy saw the car later in front of the gate. So maybe he was there or around dealing drugs but I don't think we will hear more from him, but who knows.

[video=youtube;8tH-klo4nGQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tH-klo4nGQ[/video]

 

[SMK]

The CCTV image doesn't show the gate so we can't really say when he parked his car, but he did testify that he was on the way to a bar at about 9:30pm when he bumped into the 3. Then the tow truck guy saw the car later in front of the gate. So maybe he was there or around dealing drugs but I don't think we will hear more from him, but who knows.

Amanda Knox: The missing Video Original - YouTube

Is Knox supposed to be in this cctv footage?

 

[emyr]

Is Knox supposed to be in this cctv footage?

It's just a super grainy picture that wasn't put into evidence because no one can figure out who it is.

Looks like I shouldn't be repeating the echo chamber. So the black car was seen by the tow truck driver. Got it. And Kokomani stated he parked there briefly, and his cell phone places him in that area the night of the murder. He states that he told friends at a pub he was attacked by crazy people with knives that night (but they haven't testified), and he left perugia shortly after the murder (because he said he was scared because he heard people were looking for him to buy his silence). Before trial he was arrested for drug dealing, and he knew Rudy from back when he was a waiter at Alutgria (and called him "cousin").

 

[gitana1]

There are three stages to a trial in Italy. The first stage found her guilty, the second stage reversed that decision and the third stage is yet to come.

In Italy, 50% of all people convicted at the first stage (trial) level, have their convictions overturned or reduced. 50%. That is because the first stage level is thought to be a holdover of the Mussolini era, fascist police state. And for that reason, people in Italy are generally not thought to be convicted until they are convicted at the second stage, appellate level:

The appeals process in Italy is generally considered to be much fairer than trials of the first degree, and people are not generally considered convicted until they are convicted on appeal. This is why Mignini, even after his conviction for abuse of office, was able to continue prosecuting the case.


About 50% of all criminal convictions in Italy are reversed or greatly modified on appeal. Knox and Sollecito join the 4 million Italians since the war who have seen their lives ruined by false criminal charges, only to be proclaimed innocent after many years of agony and imprisonment.


While they don't like others pointing it out, many Italians are well aware that their judicial system is dysfunctional. Silvio Berlusconi is absolutely right when he says the judiciary needs fundamental reform. The Italian judiciary, a holdover to a great extent from the Mussolini era, when Italy was a police state, acts with no checks and balances, in which prosecutors and police wield enormous power.


If you are arrested for a crime and have no alibi, you are in very serious trouble. The de facto burden of proof is on you to prove your innocence, despite lip service in the Italian constitution to the idea of innocent until proven guilty.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/04/knox-acquittal-only-possible-verdict

Here is the link to the Micheli report were the judge rejects the satanic theory presented by Mignini

It is in Italian thus you will either have to do a google translate. Sorry my Italian is not fluent enough yet

http://www.penale.it/page.asp?mode=1&IDPag=750

Thank you. A poster was stating that Mignini never accused Knox and Sollecito of the Satanic, ritualized cult killing of Meredith Kercher. I was asked to post a link to the 17 page committal hearing report in which the judge mentions that theory of Mignini and then discards it. I could not find the link. Sadly, but not surprisingly, the report is in Italian, though, but there it is.

BTW, for all interested, here is video of Sollecito and Knox "making out" after Meredith was murdered: [video=youtube;0sgA8xWXQc8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sgA8xWXQc8[/video]

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The sink stuff is weird. Amanda's body was checked twice for cuts... no cuts. There's video of the sink, I can't see blood, but a close-up photo shows smeared blood. The handle shows the same smear look. I've seen another picture where it was just the smaller red smear. My guess is it's just that smaller red part and not the long smear that this picture makes it look like. The JREF forums have considered that it might be fake blood from the halloween blood makeup that had been used, since they couldn't find a confirmatory blood test for the tap stain. But the blood on the pillow seems to make that much less plausible.

When did Amanda's botched ear piercing take place?

emyr,

The lighting in this photo is brighter than some other photos of the bathroom I have seen, and that may have some effect. I think one is seeing the reflection from a dark (wood?) ceiling on the faucet. I see a couple of drops that are reddish. I see at most one brownish smear, and I am not sure whether this is really blood or just a distorted reflection. If we had a photo that showed what the ceiling in the bathroom looked like, that would help.

 

[Steft50]

The gossip is that the cleaning was 'selective'. This has been explained many times. If you look at the violent acts committed against Meredith Kercher then most of those acts did not leave any DNA. Especially the acts attributed to AK and RS did not leave any DNA. The reason is simple. They had a knife in their hands. You don't leave DNA so easily anyway as was also explained during the trials. For example, the strangle must have been very forceful yet no DNA was left of that action. So I don't know if their was anything to clean in the bedroom. The area where the cleaning definitely happened is the bathroom.

There is plenty of evidence but the problem of the appeal was that the experts did not agree. This was the cause for doubt amongst the judges who did not want to convict on just bloody footprints and mixed DNA traces. I don't know exactly why since I don't believe there is anything 'normal' about having luminol footprints and mixed blood/DNA traces in your house. Especially not in the context of a very bloody murder scene. We will have to wait for the judges report to see what he says.

I understand you praise judge Hellmann. It would have been rather silly had he convicted them for the staging but not for the murder charge. Judges like Micheli and Massei thought otherwise about the staging. You can read their reports for evidence if you like.

And here is the circle I mentioned before. Evidence at a bloody crime scene would/should/could mean other evidence than just DNA. A lack of evidence of them being there simply means they weren't there, not that there was a clean up. This was a bloody crime scene. Where are the areas that were cleaned up? Where are the bloody clothes, bloody shoes, bloody anything connected to AK and RS? Are there pictures taken of the blood spatter in the room that shows voids of someone(s) other than Rudy in the room? Was there blood in the mop? Was there evidence of the floors, walls, ceilings being wiped down? What is the evidence of a clean up happening?

As for the alleged staging of the breakin, again, where is the evidence that this staging occured? I've heard rumors and supposed testimoney that glass was on top of the clothes in the room that was broken into and testimony that item (s) a laptop? were removed from this room before any pictures could be taken to show this was staged. I wasn't praising Hellman for ruling that the staging did not occur, I was only stating the obvious and the ruling, there is no evidence that the crime of staging did occur.

What I keep going back to is the C&V report. I don't understand that harsh criticisms from guilters of this report. Remember, this isn't a defense paid for report, these people were not paid for by the defense or the prosecution. These were court appointed, neutral, nothing to gain or lose people. They are really the only ones in this who had no reason to lie or make things up.

I dunno, I'm not gonna bang my head against the computer on this anymore. Again I asked, and again I get no response that makes any sense and no evidence to back it up.

 

[Steft50]

emyr,

The lighting in this photo is brighter than some other photos of the bathroom I have seen, and that may have some effect. I think one is seeing the reflection from a dark (wood?) ceiling on the faucet. I see a couple of drops that are reddish. I see at most one brownish smear, and I am not sure whether this is really blood or just a distorted reflection. If we had a photo that showed what the ceiling in the bathroom looked like, that would help.

My understanding is the ceilings were wood and that is the reflection you see on the faucet and handle. If you look close enough you can see the reflections of the crime scene techs too. The spots of blood are fairly tiny, about half way up the faucet on the right as your looking at it. Everything else is reflection IIRC.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

In some cases of attempted strangulation, DNA of the perpetrator can be found on the victim. There might also be DNA on the clothing or wrists of anyone who was restrained. I do not know whether all possible areas were swabbed. Yet, I would take the lack of DNA from AK or RS on Meredith's clothing as mildly exculpatory.

Bibliography
P. Wiegand and M. Kleiber, “DNA typing of epithelial cells after strangulation,” International Journal of Legal Medicine (1997) 110 :181–183.

G. N. Rutty, “An investigation into the transference and survivability
of human DNA following simulated manual strangulation
with consideration of the problem of third party contamination,” International Journal of Legal Medicine (2002) 116 :170–173.

A. Lowe, C. Murray, J. Whitaker, G. Tully, P. Gill, “The propensity of individuals to deposit DNA and secondary transfer of low level DNA from individuals to inert surfaces.” Forensic Science International (2002) 129(1):25-34.

E. A. M. Graham and G.N. Rutty, “Investigation into ‘normal’ background DNA on adult necks: implications for DNA profiling of manual strangulation victims.” Journal of Forensic Science, (2008) 53(5):1074-82.

 

[SMK]

On the role of the CIA in the Knox Acquittal (now I have heard it all):

Amanda Knox, the fall of Silvio Berlusconi, on 11 September and the role of U.S. intelligence ...

This is more than just a feeling. The recent acquittal of a U.S. citizen Amanda Knox to the murder of British student in Perugia Meredith Kercher repeats a theme that other elements make it relevant: the influence of the United States and especially its innermost structures (secret service, CIA, etc.) in politics and Italian life. The ruling of the Court of Appeal in Perugia has overturned the verdict of First Instance, which had condemned the Knox with her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito at the time, sending the American citizen acquitted. The media pressure have been very strong but also have not been less diplomatic. The American public has long had issued a verdict of acquittal for his young compatriot, a verdict based not on reality but on a procedural sense of ownership created by the American media.

And the American media had always placed great emphasis on the poor quality of investigations on Italian and Italian justice system. Kercher now investigating the case were not particularly complex and according to our sources have been done well. In that house there were three people besides the unfortunate student killed and one of the three, who suffered a judicial process in its own right, the Ivorian Rudy Guede has already been convicted for the incident. Now the appeals court tells us that there were two other people but they were not Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. Something is not right, in addition to denial of justice made the Kercher family. We change now completely general. The downfall of Silvio Berlusconi is a project, coordinated, also because of the disorderly life of the President of the Council is carried out by numerous journalistic circles, politicians and business for over a year. Tucked away in a line of some newspaper a few months ago it was written, and has never been denied, that a team of U.S. intelligence, consisting of four persons at the U.S. embassy was working to topple the government of Silvio Berlusconi Berlusconi is no longer considered a trusted friend of the United States and in dangerous liaison of business (especially oil) and not only with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

http://translate.google.com/transla...ese.it&hl=en&sa=G&biw=1024&bih=504&prmd=imvns

 

[Madeleine74]

Boy those CIA operatives really get around, don't they? I didn't realize they have the ability to control the Italian jurisprudence system, though. Now that's some big honkin' power!

 

[sherlockh]

And here is the circle I mentioned before. Evidence at a bloody crime scene would/should/could mean other evidence than just DNA. A lack of evidence of them being there simply means they weren't there, not that there was a clean up. This was a bloody crime scene. Where are the areas that were cleaned up? Where are the bloody clothes, bloody shoes, bloody anything connected to AK and RS? Are there pictures taken of the blood spatter in the room that shows voids of someone(s) other than Rudy in the room? Was there blood in the mop? Was there evidence of the floors, walls, ceilings being wiped down? What is the evidence of a clean up happening?

As for the alleged staging of the breakin, again, where is the evidence that this staging occured? I've heard rumors and supposed testimoney that glass was on top of the clothes in the room that was broken into and testimony that item (s) a laptop? were removed from this room before any pictures could be taken to show this was staged. I wasn't praising Hellman for ruling that the staging did not occur, I was only stating the obvious and the ruling, there is no evidence that the crime of staging did occur.

What I keep going back to is the C&V report. I don't understand that harsh criticisms from guilters of this report. Remember, this isn't a defense paid for report, these people were not paid for by the defense or the prosecution. These were court appointed, neutral, nothing to gain or lose people. They are really the only ones in this who had no reason to lie or make things up.

I dunno, I'm not gonna bang my head against the computer on this anymore. Again I asked, and again I get no response that makes any sense and no evidence to back it up.

If you keep insisting the bedroom must have been cleaned then that is up to you. I don't agree. The bathroom was visibly cleaned as their should have been more blood on the floor if you look at the bathmat. The door and sink were visibly cleaned as the traces of blood found seemed to have been part of a larger trace. Especially the trace on the side of the door is rather telling.

I did not even criticize the C&V report. I pointed out that the experts did not agree. Experts for the prosecution are neutral as well. There were several experts arguing on very specific technical details of the investigation. How are the judges supposed to choose sides on that? This is the only reason why I understand and can accept the courts decision.

You got a fair response from me, but apparently you don't appreciate it and throw name calling like "guilters" at me so I am going to shut up now

 

[sherlockh]

Thank you. A poster was stating that Mignini never accused Knox and Sollecito of the Satanic, ritualized cult killing of Meredith Kercher. I was asked to post a link to the 17 page committal hearing report in which the judge mentions that theory of Mignini and then discards it. I could not find the link. Sadly, but not surprisingly, the report is in Italian, though, but there it is.

*Snipped*. There is nothing in that report about 'satan'. Micheli reject the prosecutions theory of a planned sex game gone wrong. He said it was more spontaneous. As shown before the source of this rumor is a defense lawyer who described the theory of the prosecution as satanic. This then was picked up by reporters and the words were subscribed to the prosecution. Mignini himself explicitly denied ever have said this in an interview with CNN.

 

[dr dona]

I guess the CIA is really buay. Personally I thought that initally Amanda was guilty and most of the gullible American press made her out to be the spawn of Satan. After following the appeal I have huge doubt over the guilty verdict and think she is probably innocent. .DUH----that fulfills the defiunition of reasonable doubt. Inthat bloody of a crime scene their DNA should be there!!!!

 

[SMK]

*Snipped*. There is nothing in that report about 'satan'. Micheli reject the prosecutions theory of a planned sex game gone wrong. He said it was more spontaneous. As shown before the source of this rumor is a defense lawyer who described the theory of the prosecution as satanic. This then was picked up by reporters and the words were subscribed to the prosecution. Mignini himself explicitly denied ever have said this in an interview with CNN.

To synopsize a refutation:

1. Despite this, Mignini did in fact speak of a Halloween ritual and such things in court on Oct. 18, 2008. Your claim that Mignini didn't say those things runs counter to all the reports supported by Nadeua, Follain, Micheli, and Kercher, all deemed credible.
   
2. Mignini made a correlation between Raffael's Japanese graphic novel that included female vampires . Nadeau wrote that it had been deemed a fusion of "Satan worship and *advertiser censored*."
   
3. The burglary gone wrong staring the police in the face was swapped by Mignini for a Halloween ritual killing. He back-pedalled, but the damage had been done.

 

[Madeleine74]

I couldn't help but notice that the picture of Amanda in the car with (the bodyguard?)...that bodyguard in his profile resembles Paul McCartney! LOL. Go back and look and tell me if you think he does.

 

[sherlockh]

To synopsize a refutation:

1. Despite this, Mignini did in fact speak of a Halloween ritual and such things in court on Oct. 18, 2008. Your claim that Mignini didn't say those things runs counter to all the reports supported by Nadeua, Follain, Micheli, and Kercher, all deemed credible.
   
2. Mignini made a correlation between Raffael's Japanese graphic novel that included female vampires . Nadeau wrote that it had been deemed a fusion of "Satan worship and *advertiser censored*."
   
3. The burglary gone wrong staring the police in the face was swapped by Mignini for a Halloween ritual killing. He back-pedalled, but the damage had been done.

Right. So now it is not 'satan' anymore, but more something like a 'Halloween prank'. I think you just proved my point. Thanks

 

[SMK]

I couldn't help but notice that the picture of Amanda in the car with (the bodyguard?)...that bodyguard in his profile resembles Paul McCartney! LOL. Go back and look and tell me if you think he does.

That he does! But I think it is Steve Moore.:floorlaugh:

 

[SMK]

Right. So now it is not 'satan' anymore, but more something like a 'Halloween prank'. I think you just proved my point. Thanks

Mignini never used the word "prank". He used words such as "sect", Satanism, and "ritual".

Thus, I did NOT prove your point, I refuted it.:great:

 

[sherlockh]

Mignini never used the word "prank". He used words such as "sect" and "ritual". I did NOT prove your point, I refuted it.:great:

I thought the discussion was about Mignini using words like 'satan' or 'satanic'? Nowhere you have shown that he said such things. I am still waiting for the quotes besides the one from the defense lawyer.

 

[SMK]

I thought the discussion was about Mignini using words like 'satan' or 'satanic'? Nowhere you have shown that he said such things. I am still waiting for the quotes besides the one from the defense lawyer.

Check court transcripts from Oct. 18, 2008. Check also Nadeau, Kercher, Follain, Micheli, et al. Mignini did indeed describe Raffaele's vampire material as "satanic". He did make highly suggestive remarks about rituals and Halloween. And you know the defense attorney would have been sued for defamation if he misspoke about Mignini. :innocent:ETA: Also see my post below: