Meredith Kercher murdered in Perugia, Amanda Knox convicted #3

[Nova]

One final question (for now): what's up with AK's black light? If I understand the sequence of events, it was found in MK's room, but the cord ran out into the hall to an electrical socket there.

Any explanations as to why?

 

[Steely Dan]

I don't know what all the Knox family has said, but your assessment of the relationship seems right to me and is consistent with the testimony of MK's friends.





Lumumba also knew he had an airtight alibi and didn't live in the room next to the dead girl. Knox, on the other hand, had no alibi other than a very new boyfriend who may have been asleep at the time of the murder, and who, so she heard, was throwing her under the bus in his testimony to LE.

You keep invoking Lumumba as he if were proof of how all innocent persons behave. The fact is he is not. Do I really need to drag out all the research on false confessions and coerced testimony, etc.? It's been repeatedly shown here in various WS threads that innocent persons are quite capable of saying stupid and untrue things under the pressure of official suspicion.

We all agree Lumumba is terrific and was badly treated. Why are we still discussing him?



My mother ignored my brother's memorial service, even though he lived with her all 33 years of his life. Think she murdered him?

The other behaviors may indicate immaturity; they may just indicate that as the only other roommate in town at the time of the murder, people were already beginning to look at her with suspicion and read things into everything she did.



Perhaps when they started telling her that what she was saying couldn't possibly be true. That's usually when it happens.



Fair enough. That is indeed what the report states.



Is this statement the one you cited above? The one where she talks about her questioning the previous day? Because she does not state that Lumumba is a rapist and murderer; she says she has vague impressions of seeing him at the house, impressions she isn't at all sure are real. And she does say she is confused--she says it over and over again. In fact, that's about all she says.

Could she have done a better job of exonerating Lumumba in that statement? Yes. But what I read is a girl trying to cast suspicion away from herself, but also remaining vague enough to keep Lumumba out of any real trouble. Doesn't make Knox an angel, but as I said above, Italian LE should be ashamed of themselves for arresting anyone on the basis of that statement.

False confessions, IIRC, usually come from those with low IQ's looking for a way to get out of an uncomfortable situation. Amanda isn't stupid. I believe she thinks she's able to outsmart the police, which on some level is stupid but her IQ isn't low.

Still, with reference to otto's post #592, re carrying knives: was RS known to go around carrying 8" kitchen knives?

'Cause that strikes me as really awkward and most likely to inflict injury on the one carrying the knife.

I realize the prosecution doesn't have to prove motive and doesn't have to explain every single artifact and oddity of a case, nor is it usually possible to do so.

But supporters of these verdicts should admit, I think, that there's a lot about this case that simply either makes no sense or requires tremendous leaps of faith.

The court report has AK and RS wandering off to her bedroom to have sex, leaving their friend RG with an frosty and annoyed MK, only to be interrupted by MK's screams when RG rapes her. AK and RS jump up and rush into MK's room where the attack is taking place, then "choose to commit extreme evil", according to the court summary. Fortunately, RS--or maybe AK--is wandering around with one of RS' kitchen knives, so the young lovers can join in the mayhem. Huh?

I'm beginning to think Steely Dan has the best idea: that AK and RS weren't necessarily involved in the rape or killing, but somehow thought they would be held responsible (maybe because they were high and paranoid?) and effected the cover-up. But if that's so, why hasn't one or both said so by now? (The answer may lie in Italian law, which I don't pretend to fully understand. There is a discussion in the trial report of how Italian law defines "continued association" (or similar words) in a crime, whereby one becomes responsible for the actions of another.)

It was wondered above why the Knox family cares about the reevaluation of evidence that seems to only help RS. Maybe it's because without the knife, the only evidence of AK's participation in the rape and murder is the inferred conclusion that she was in on the cover-up and must have done something she had to hide. Without the knife, what is there to tie either RS or AK to anything criminal before the cover-up?

And what is up with RG and toilets? As the court report notes, this wasn't the first time he neglected to flush!

IIRC, in America if you and I rob a convenience store and you shoot and kill the clerk I'm guilty of murder too. They may have some sort of similar law.

This link explains the footprint evidence;

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15711115/Barefoot-Footprints-Hallway

Here's a good site for evidence. The one thing that bugs me about this site is it claimed, last I checked over a year ago, that the knife was hidden in a shoe box in RS's closet. This was brought up on NG by a woman discussing the case. I couldn't find anything about it on the internet, other than at that site, and I emailed her to find out where that report came from and never heard back from her. The email address was good, nothing kicked back to me. There is a picture of the knife in an evidence box that I think was used as the basis for that report. A conclusion jump, IMO.

 

[Steely Dan]

This link has a list of false statements given to police by RS. http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/raffaele_sollecito_trapped_in_his_own_words/

This link has the false statements of AK; http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/amanda_knox_trapped_in_her_own_words/

 

[Steely Dan]

This is interesting; http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...estify_those_devils_that_lurk_in_the_details/

Preamble

We have always pressed very hard for the truth to come out. WHY did poor Meredith have to die? And why and how in such a cruel and depraved way?

It now looks almost overwhelmingly certain that the truth did NOT come out when Amanda Knox took the witness stand in the court on 12 and 13 June.

No media organization seems to have made even the slightest effort to analyze Amanda Knox’s testimony, to see if it hangs true with past statements and known timelines.

But the judges and jury will do this for sure.

We have also begun to cross-check the testimony, and the first results look quite devastating for the defense....

 

[Steely Dan]

This is about RS's knife collection; http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C309/

 

[Sarah1892]

The conviction of Amanda Knox relied on forensic evidence that is fatally flawed in many respects. The investigation fall well short of the standards you would expect in such a case primarily because the police, under intense media pressure locally, were too quick to state what they thought had happened, effectively starting out with the conclusion they felt required to reach and making the "evidence" fit the desired outcome. The best place to see why the defense contest the forensics is www.friendsofamanda.org . I am 100% convinced that this is an unsafe conviction that should not stand, and as such I am urging all with an interest in justice to consider the failings of the evidence and support a new petition site in support of Amanda's appeal at www.freeamandaknox.com .

I can understand why the police & prosecutors acted as they did. Once they were committed to their version of events, it would have been highly embarrassing for them to back down and admit they were wrong but that is no reason to destroy the life of an innocent girl unlucky enough to be a perfect scapegoat caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. We really must make it clear that although being understanding of their reasons, the Italian authorities must make good their error and overturn this unjust conviction by adding our support to the petition. It will do far more harm to the reputation of the Italian justice system to continue with this folly and refuse to accept the reality that the evidence presented does not prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Accepting the mistake and correcting it however will be of great credit to Italy and restore faith in their system as being just and fair for all.

 

[otto]

Either the worst lie ever by a guilty suspect or a classic example of coerced, false testimony under pressure. (The pressure of being a suspect, not necessarily because someone was looming over her at that moment.)

"I don't even remember being there, but you insist you have proof I was. In addition, I hear my boyfriend is telling you that my memory of being with him all night is false. So everyone around me is telling me my memory is wrong, so maybe the truth is really something else. "

otto says pot doesn't cause blackouts and he may be right. But not being as upstanding a citizen as otto, I can say from personal experience that pot plus alcohol can produce fleeting impressions such as Knox describes here.

That doesn't mean she is innocent. But IMHO using this statement as proof of guilt (which the trial judge says he did not) is to ignore the context in which it was created.

For what it's worth, Knox very clearly backs away from the Lumumba accusation several times in this writing before eventually reiterating it. Knox shouldn't have mentioned him in the first place, but if Italian LE kept him in jail for two weeks on the basis of statements like these, then Italian LE very much shares the blame for Lumumba's mistreatment.

Amanda did not have a fleeting moment of forgetfulness. Instead she, a supposedly inexperienced drug user, forgot the entire evening. Short term memory loss is a long term abuse thing, not a European vacation of drug abuse. Raffaele's father refuted Amanda's claims that they ate at 11 PM because he spoke with Raffaele between 8 and 9 when they were eating. The luggage girl confirmed this account of the events of the evening. Raffaele's father phones repeatedly throughout the night at the most inopportune times.

Which statement do you think should not be included in the decisions, keeping in mind that everything Amanda said during questioning as a witness was excluded from trial?

By the way, the obvious proof that Amanda was there was her confession. People have turned themselves into pretzels to justify Amanda's actions and statements, but still she was convicted and sentenced to 26 years in prison. I don't think that this is a complete mistake. One would have to excuse a mountain of evidence to conclude that Amanda was innocent ... a bit like ignoring the big picture, and trying to dissect each piece of evidence, hoping that one by one it could be discarded before anyone saw the big picture.

 

[Allusonz]

One final question (for now): what's up with AK's black light? If I understand the sequence of events, it was found in MK's room, but the cord ran out into the hall to an electrical socket there.

Any explanations as to why?

The investigators used it, why would MK have it plugged into a hallway, for that matter why would Ak MOO

 

[Allusonz]

As per the innocence project

While it can be hard to understand why someone would falsely confess to a crime, psychological research has provided some answers – and DNA exonerations have proven that the problem is more widespread than many people think. In approximately 25% of the wrongful convictions overturned with DNA evidence, defendants made false confessions, admissions or statements to law enforcement officials

As per this link

http://www.innocenceproject.org/fix/False-Confessions.php?phpMyAdmin=52c4ab7ea46t7da4197

 

[Allusonz]

As for the slander charges against so many others by GM

He was convicted of:

1.) Illegally investigating journalists who had criticized him with the "intent to harass or deter them from pursuing their legitimate profession". Specifically the court found that Mignini had targeted Italian journalists Vincenzo Tessandori, Gennaro De Stefano, and Roberto Fiasconaro, because they had criticized his investigations into the death of Narducci.


2.) Ordering an illegal investigation of the Florentine ex police chief Giuseppe De Donno.


3.) Ordering illegal investigations of two officials of the Viminale, the Ministry of the Interior in Rome, including an illegal investigation of the Roberto Sgalla, ex-director of the office of external affairs

 

[Allusonz]

Footprint

The prosecution in this case stated that many bare footprints of Amanda Knox were found in the house (but none in Meredith’s room) Never was there any attempt to determine whether they were indeed Amanda’s as opposed to any of the other roommates. Theoretically, they could have been old footprints of Meredith. These footprints, however, were detected with luminol. Recapping, now; after luminol detection, a forensic investigator then……


1. Tests for blood (after all, that’s what you’re looking for), and
2. Tests for DNA. (If it IS blood, you want to know whose it is).


Patrizia Stafanoni of the Policia Scientifica, who perpetrated this debacle, instead tested only for DNA. Only for DNA? You are looking for blood and you get a hit that could be blood or any of a dozen different substances, including bleach, and you don’t test to see if you hit the jackpot? It begs the question of incompetence or intent. Regardless, the DNA testing showed that whatever the substance was; Meredith’s DNA was not in it.

http://knoxarchives.blogspot.com/

 

[Allusonz]

Cleaned crimescene

A crime scene cleaned with bleach wouldn’t have footprints or fingerprints; it would have wide swaths of bleach, many times in arcs that give away the tell-tale motions of cleaning and wiping, kind of like we used to see on chalk-board erasures. You would see luminol reactions everywhere; it would look like a huge florescent blue paint spill

 

[Allusonz]

the interrogation

Of even greater ignominy are the last eight hours of the interrogation. This took place from 10:30 p.m. until 6:00 a.m. All night. Why would detectives schedule an interrogation overnight? Detectives are for the most part different from other policemen in that their regular schedule is 8a-5p or 9a-5p or something similar. Sure, they get called out in the middle of the night, but all things equal, unless you are in a department like NYPD or LAPD where a skeleton crew covers the evening shift; normal schedules for detectives are not overnight

They used a technique that I unfortunately became aware of while serving overseas in counter-terrorism. We used to call it “tag-teaming”. I am aware of its use by intelligence/law enforcement officers of other countries. It takes dozens of operatives/officers to make it work. Two officers are assigned for approximately an hour at a time to the suspect. Their prime responsibility is simply to keep the person awake and agitated. They do this for only an hour, because it takes a lot out of the detectives. After an hour, a fresh pair of “interrogators” come in. Again, the questions they ask are secondary to their main task—keep the person awake and afraid. By tag-teaming every hour, the interrogators remain fresh, energetic and on-task. The suspect, however, becomes increasingly exhausted, confused by different questions from dozens of different interrogators, and prays for the interrogation to end. In extreme cases, people can become so disoriented that they forget where they are. Interrogation such as this for more than four days has resulted in death

http://injusticeinperugia.org/FBI7.html

 

[Allusonz]

deflamation charges by GM

1. Amanda Knox: Charged with defamation of the police for claiming she was hit on the back of her head during her illegal interrogation. The wrongful conviction wasn't enough for Mignini.



2 & 3. Edda Mellas and Curt Knox: Amanda's parents were served with papers just before the ruling against their daughter, for simply repeating their daughters court testimony. During an interview, Amanda's parents told a reporter that Amanda testified in court, that she had been hit on the back of the head. They simply repeated the court testimony of their daughter. For that, Mignini slapped a lawsuit on them. Is he trying to keep them from visiting their daughter in prison? Is he really that cold hearted? I say yes. In my opinion, Mignini is an Unstable, cold hearted, worthless excuse of a human being.



4. The West Seattle Herald: Mignini filed defamation charges in this case because Herald reporter Steve Shay quoted other people saying Mignini was "mentally unstable". Mignini actually filed a lawsuit against a newspaper in Seattle Washington because they hurt his feelings. Read more here.



5. Joe Cottonwood - www.joecottonwood.com. Take a look at Joe's Website. Joe is a fiction writer. Joe doesn't even like Amanda Knox. He was simply voicing his opinion about the case. Why was Mignini threatened by him?



Here is Joe's quote that won him the honors of a Magnini lawsuit: "The Meredith Kercher murder is one of those mirrors that reflects the prejudices of whoever is looking into it. There is no physical evidence and no credible motive, and yet an egotistical prosecutor is blaming Amanda Knox anyway. In the USA, this would only happen if she were black. Perhaps partying American college kids are so hated in Italy that Amanda will be treated as blacks are treated in the USA, and she will be convicted not because of the evidence but because of general resentment of shallow rich Americans. Personally, from what I've read I don't like Amanda Knox. She sounds spoiled, naive, and shallow. But that's not a crime. I loathe the prosecutor, who has a counterpart in every city in the USA - a preening, intellectually dishonest bully who cares more about making newspaper headlines than in serving justice. It's the same all over the world. Power and prejudice are the enemies of justice."



6. Luciano Ghirga, an attorney for Amanda Knox.



7. Luca Maori, an attorney for Raffaele Sollecito



8. Giangavino Sulas, journalist for Oggi magazine



9. The director and editor of Oggi magazine



10. Mario Spezi: Italian journalist who co-wrote The Monster of Florence with journalist and author Doug Preston. Mignini continues to torment Spezi for simply disagreeing with him.



11. Francesca Bene, an Italian reporter, said Knox had, in her opinion, advanced her cause by making clear what police had not previously conceded , that Knox thought she was being a helpful witness when in fact police were targeting her as a suspect and should have told her so. Mignini didn't like hearing the truth from Bene.



12. Gabriella Carlizzi: Carlizzi is a psychic. Mignini has charged Carlizzi with defamation multiple times. Doug Preston says that Mignini used Carlizzi as a witness in the Monster of Florence Case.



Mignini actually keeps blacklists. It has been reported that he targets his enemies. Click on the link below to read an article from Panorama Magazine. The text has been translated.

http://injusticeinperugia.org/Mignini.html

 

[Allusonz]

the bathroom

please excuse the link i did not want to waste much more space with the actual pictures

please look half way down the page to get this information

before luminol and after

http://injusticeinperugia.org/myths.html

 

[Allusonz]

Would be quite simple to produce the knife he supposidly hid... right? :snooty:

I hate when i say except but except

The court never contacted him. Definately makes me wonder who did know about it hhhhhhmmmmmmmmm

 

[Allusonz]

I defer to your judgment since I don't see many copies this far west. I was reacting to the ads on The Mail's website.

Personally, I don't imagine I'd want to discuss my dead daughter and my family's pain amid ads for gossip on reality-TV stars and the latest on the supposed Jolie/Aniston feud. But as I said, I'm not in Mr. Kercher's shoes.

I believe you are naive, however, as to how tabloid journalism works. I can almost guarantee you Mr. Kercher was paid for that article, and probably paid well. As he has every right to be. (ETA I want to be very clear that I see absolutely nothing wrong with Kercher being paid to write a newspaper article about his daughter's case. He's done nothing wrong; writing is his profession. Why shouldn't he be paid?)

Except for the timing..........

How convenient that this word has come into play prior to so many instances with relation to this fiasco

 

[dgfred]

I hate when i say except but except

The court never contacted him. Definately makes me wonder who did know about it hhhhhhmmmmmmmmm

So the defense, parents, or ANYONE can not contact him or look themselves??? :snooty: So far the court has refused to believe him in any way.

There is NO WAY to read AK's email, her 'statements' about Patrick and look at her behavior after he was arrested without seeing she was trying to deflect the investigation with lies and misinformation IMO. She did not claim she was hit, she did not claim to be exausted/tricked/hungry... she just lied.

 

[dgfred]

The investigators used it, why would MK have it plugged into a hallway, for that matter why would Ak MOO

Maybe the investigators had THEIR OWN LIGHTS.
Maybe needed to find an earing or a broken nail.
Maybe needed to clean their/her footprints and see very clearly.
Maybe forgot to remove it before locking the door.
Maybe it should have had SOMEBODY's fingerprints on it... but it did not.

Wonder how she was able to see during her 'bathmat shuffle' without a lamp in her room?

Wonder why she would do a bathmat shuffle anyway in a cottage that she was already suspicious of, with an open front door-blood drops-poo in toilet-
flatmate's door shut and locked-etc???

Is there a drop of evidence that could possibly show AK is not guilty? :waitasec: Instead of excuses/deflection/ambiguity/lies/spin/candy coating.

 

[Nova]

Except for the timing..........

How convenient that this word has come into play prior to so many instances with relation to this fiasco

Obviously, I don't have a pay stub in front of me. But paying for stories has become standard practice for tabloids and producing such stories is Mr. Kercher's profession.

Of course, it's possible he refused payment out of principle, but he's an idiot if he did. As I've said repeatedly, the article is not something *I* imagine I'd write, but I'm not in his shoes. And since he did write it, if he was paid for it (as I'm sure he was), good for him. He, like his daughter, is one of the victims here; there's no reason he shouldn't make a living. (And it's not as if he wrote something disrespectful of his dead daughter; quite the contrary.)