Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #1

[laytonian]

Thing is, when the sheriff lists a few bits of preposterously unconvincing "evidence" of her innocence, it's hard to take his claim of additional "evidence" very seriously. They had lunch at Subway at a certain time, so of course she told the sheriff that. And she cried really hard? Well I'm sure anyone pretending they just witnessed someone killed their beloved spouse would do that. And traces of his blood on her vest? First of all, I *very* much doubt that conclusive DNA test results on those traces could have been back by the time he said that (or even by now), and secondly, even if it was, evidence of *his* blood on *her* jacket hardly meets my threshold for proof that she didn't kill him! A jury would be hard-pressed not to burst out laughing if such information was presented in court as "evidence" the accused wasn't involved in the murder. So what's the yet-to-be-disclosed additional "evidence" of her innocence? That she said her husband was wearing an X-colored shirt and the dashcam video from the traffic stop earlier that day showed he was indeed wearing that color shirt?

And I haven't seen any claim by anyone that any "witness" saw anything like attackers in the vicinity of an injured/dead David Hartley.

BBM

Not only that, but her makes-no-sense explanation that she handled her husband's body after he was shot, would be necessary to explain WHY his blood was on her and obviously the jet ski.

 

[laytonian]

He said, "The Mexican government said yes, then backed off and said, 'No, we don't want the Americans over here.' We need to use the American resources that we have, because that area of the lake is controlled by the Zetas, there is an island on that lake where the Zetas really operate, the drug cartels. If we mean business about trying to recover David Hartley's body we need American involvement and the Mexican government needs to be relentless to find it. They are intimidated now, they really won't go near the area where the Zetas operate."

"Early Show" co-anchor Harry Smith said, "We need to stop and pause a second because even the Mexican authorities themselves are clearly not in control. It's the drug cartel that is in control because…the Mexican authorities backed away when they were threatened."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/08/earlyshow/main6938718.shtml

Some of the members of the Zetas are former Special Forces soldiers from the Mexican Army. It apparently pays more to side with the drug cartel than try to stop them.

That's all well and good, but that flotilla that helped her place flowers in the water, certainly didn't seem afraid.

 

[WellDone]

BBM: & my opinion in red

]I'm a fence sitter and am coming up with a few things to ponder and go hmmm? :

If this couple was involved in illegal activities, you'd think they would be sure not to attract law enforcement (i.e. update their car/trailer tags) Nope, that's for sure! IMO

Are pirates like those other types of terrorists where they would brag or claim ownership of this crime? ) Nope, that's for sure! IMO


Is there presence of a border patrol on this lake? Is this a place where people can easily go (illegally) back and forth over the borders and to dry land? For instance, drug runners? Great question, but I doubt it..... IMO

These questions may seem trivial or silly but I'm like a few others here trying to figure out why they would endanger themselves over a old church. I'm wondering how many other people might use this same method of transportation to sight see in this area? Interesting... I would assume so too.... IMO

At first, I thought the wife didn't act upset enough but like someone mentioned here, she may have been in shock. I couldn't imagine myself going through what she said happened. That's probably why it's hard to believe.

I think TH is pretty much damned if she does & damned if she doesn't..... there are no rule books for any kind of tragedy unfortunately..

IMO and Godspeed to the families involved.

[/B] I totally agree!!! I believe TH & wish her & her family are able to find DH's body & have some kind of closure ~ Godspeed.... there are no better words! IMO

 

[laytonian]

From what I understand, the witness saw Tiffany speeding around on her jetski, with a boat of men behind her.

Tiffany claims they were shooting at her and fired several times as she sped away. So, according to Tiffany, they WERE shooting. Apparently no one saw that part.

....which, according to her claim, means they shot at her for seven miles but couldn't hit her. Yet, they didn't have any trouble hitting her husband.

If I were Tiffany, I wouldn't claim people were shooting at her while she ran away for seven miles. That would mean what.....the pirates crossed over into the US portion of the lake, and kept shooting? Not worrying about being seen? Then backing away....when they could more easily have been in range?

 

[WellDone]

That's exactly what TH said & the witness confirmed

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...nRPZBA8z3GreQPLl8SMQD9IIUA101?docId=D9IIUA101o

(this isn't the orginal link I'm referencing to..unfortunatley I didn't bookmark it, but I'm looking for it...in the mean time here's another that says the same.)

BBM:

....which, according to her claim, means they shot at her for seven miles but couldn't hit her. Yet, they didn't have any trouble hitting her husband.

If I were Tiffany, I wouldn't claim people were shooting at her while she ran away for seven miles. That would mean what.....the pirates crossed over into the US portion of the lake, and kept shooting? Not worrying about being seen? Then backing away....when they could more easily have been in range?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't think it's necessarily "territory". Often it appears they just want to terrify people into silence and into not interfering with drug cartel activity anywhere. Leaving gruesomely killed bodies in plain view has this effect, expecially when the bodies are of police or government officials, journalists, or nosy/outspoken citizens. When the bodies are of known rival cartel members, then it's more likely about "territory".

You missed the point I was trying to make. I was trying to convey my opinion that they don't tidy up the murder scene and they don't drag the body's off, cause they don't have to.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

The highest price for a used wave runner/jet ski on eBay, TWO of them, with trailer, is $6500.

But....the story you mention. They took the boat, and clothes. And didn't kill anyone.

In THIS case, there's a killing.....WHY?

Ebay? Really??

IMO, these aren't Miami Vice type drug runners. They aren't chilling on the patio of their hacienda, on their laptop, checking Ebay for jet-skis.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

He said, "The Mexican government said yes, then backed off and said, 'No, we don't want the Americans over here.' We need to use the American resources that we have, because that area of the lake is controlled by the Zetas, there is an island on that lake where the Zetas really operate, the drug cartels. If we mean business about trying to recover David Hartley's body we need American involvement and the Mexican government needs to be relentless to find it. They are intimidated now, they really won't go near the area where the Zetas operate."

"Early Show" co-anchor Harry Smith said, "We need to stop and pause a second because even the Mexican authorities themselves are clearly not in control. It's the drug cartel that is in control because…the Mexican authorities backed away when they were threatened."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/08/earlyshow/main6938718.shtml

Some of the members of the Zetas are former Special Forces soldiers from the Mexican Army. It apparently pays more to side with the drug cartel than try to stop them.

If I was a decision-maker for either a US or Mexican LE agency, I wouldn't go along with any plan that would put my own or another agency's personnel at risk, in order to search for the body of a known illegal border crosser whose wife's story about his murder/disappearance is full of holes. He may well have disappeared as part of plan hatched by his wife and/or himself, and if so that's likely to become known sooner or later, regardless of any search for his body.

I sure wouldn't want to be left explaining to a grieving wife and children why I sent their now-dead husband/daddy into a drug-cartel-controlled area to search for the body of a law-breaking American who it was later learned was a drug trafficker and had never been murdered in the first place. Of course, we don't know that's what happened, but it's certainly a realistic possibility, and the illegal border-crossing part is a sure thing. Nobody should die looking for this guy's body. And any other Americans thinking it might be fun to to do some recreational illegal border crossing in a drug-cartel-controlled area should get the message loud and clear that the consequences of their decisions to do stupid and illegal things will be their own problem and nobody else's.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

You missed the point I was trying to make. I was trying to convey my opinion that they don't tidy up the murder scene and they don't drag the body's off, cause they don't have to.

I agree. And not just that they don't "have to", but that there is clear benefit to them in leaving the bodies out where they'll be seen. I was only questioning the "territory" aspect of it. Plenty of the killings *are* about territory, but the leaving bodies out in the open part is usually about creating a general reign of terror IMO -- even rival cartels are happy to see the general populace terrorized by the other cartel's carnage.

 

[WellDone]

Regardless...it's done all the time by LE, military & rescue workers.

I would hope if I were in TH's shoes that EVERYONE would help in retrieving my husbands' body..... jmo

BBM

If I was a decision-maker for either a US or Mexican LE agency, I wouldn't go along with any plan that would put my own or another agency's personnel at risk, in order to search for the body of a known illegal border crosser whose wife's story about his murder/disappearance is full of holes. He may well have disappeared as part of plan hatched by his wife and/or himself, and if so that's likely to become known sooner or later, regardless of any search for his body.

I sure wouldn't want to be left explaining to a grieving wife and children why I sent their now-dead husband/daddy into a drug-cartel-controlled area to search for the body of a law-breaking American who it was later learned was a drug trafficker and had never been murdered in the first place. Of course, we don't know that's what happened, but it's certainly a realistic possibility, and the illegal border-crossing part is a sure thing. Nobody should die looking for this guy's body. And any other Americans thinking it might be fun to to do some recreational illegal border crossing in a drug-cartel-controlled area should get the message loud and clear that the consequences of their decisions to do stupid and illegal things will be their own problem and nobody else's.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

If I was a decision-maker for either a US or Mexican LE agency, I wouldn't go along with any plan that would put my own or another agency's personnel at risk, in order to search for the body of a known illegal border crosser whose wife's story about his murder/disappearance is full of holes. He may well have disappeared as part of plan hatched by his wife and/or himself, and if so that's likely to become known sooner or later, regardless of any search for his body.

I sure wouldn't want to be left explaining to a grieving wife and children why I sent their now-dead husband/daddy into a drug-cartel-controlled area to search for the body of a law-breaking American who it was later learned was a drug trafficker and had never been murdered in the first place. Of course, we don't know that's what happened, but it's certainly a realistic possibility, and the illegal border-crossing part is a sure thing. Nobody should die looking for this guy's body. And any other Americans thinking it might be fun to to do some recreational illegal border crossing in a drug-cartel-controlled area should get the message loud and clear that the consequences of their decisions to do stupid and illegal things will be their own problem and nobody else's.

I agree.

I'm so glad Sheriff Gonzalez thinks the way he does. He speaks out against the drug cartels in a very LOUD voice. It's good to know some people still have morals and compassion for their fellow Americans.

 

[WellDone]

The highest price for a used wave runner/jet ski on eBay, TWO of them, with trailer, is $6500.

But....the story you mention. They took the boat, and clothes. And didn't kill anyone.

In THIS case, there's a killing.....WHY?

BBM

Who knows why things happen???? Prior to the Hawke-Petit family killings neither SH or JK had killed either so why then??? I'm just saying just because a murder had not been acknowledged prior to this happening doesn't mean it is impossible.

 

[rossva]

Perhaps they never meant to hit the husband; perhaps they were just firing shots to scare, and accidentally hit the husband?

And *totally* missed both her and her jet-ski . . . despite the fact (according to her) that they managed to nail her husband right in the back of the head, when firing from their speedboat as he raced away from them on his jet-ski.

 

[laytonian]

BBM

Who knows why things happen???? Prior to the Hawke-Petit family killings neither SH or JK had killed either so why then??? I'm just saying just because a murder had not been acknowledged prior to this happening doesn't mean it is impossible.

I understand what you're saying.

But in Hawke-Petit, robbery was the initial motive of two deranged men. right?

While they were making their way back to the U.S. border, they were approached by three boats of fully armed pirates, she said.
"David and I were racing back to the U.S., and they started shooting," [Tiffany] told ABC News.

Seriously, three boats of "fully armed men" to just steal a jet ski and shoot a guy in the head? You don't get much from a dead guy (UNLESS you know he has something very valuable in his possession - like drugs, money or guns).

Why would the drug cartel suddenly attack two tourists on jet skis?

How did she know they were "fully armed"?

 

[laytonian]

Perhaps they never meant to hit the husband; perhaps they were just firing shots to scare, and accidentally hit the husband?

Something they couldn't duplicate, while chasing Tiffany for "seven miles"?

 

[laytonian]

I agree.

I'm so glad Sheriff Gonzalez thinks the way he does. He speaks out against the drug cartels in a very LOUD voice. It's good to know some people still have morals and compassion for their fellow Americans.

As if there's crowds of us who don't?
Really?

If WE Americans didn't have such an appetite for the drugs, and if the Mexicans didn't want the guns so freely available here, there wouldn't be such a problem.

But thinking like that is immoral - right?

 

[WellDone]

I understand what you're saying.

But in Hawke-Petit, robbery was the initial motive of two deranged men. right?

While they were making their way back to the U.S. border, they were approached by three boats of fully armed pirates, she said.
"David and I were racing back to the U.S., and they started shooting," [Tiffany] told ABC News.

Seriously, three boats of "fully armed men" to just steal a jet ski and shoot a guy in the head? You don't get much from a dead guy (UNLESS you know he has something very valuable in his possession - like drugs, money or guns).

Why would the drug cartel suddenly attack two tourists on jet skis?

How did she know they were "fully armed"?

BBM

Well, in my opinion (because I'm not a criminal or gang member or drug cartel member).... personally I think they just wanted the jet ski's or did it just for the hell of it..... jmo I know it is known they travel in abundance vs 1 or 2 criminals... that's all over the world..... I'm sure they have victimized others whether with just theft &/or theft & death for a lot less. It's because they can.... they know they are feared & use it to their advantage.

 

[Linda7NJ]

BBM

Well, in my opinion (because I'm not a criminal or gang member or drug cartel member).... personally I think they just wanted the jet ski's or did it just for the hell of it..... jmo I know it is known they travel in abundance vs 1 or 2 criminals... that's all over the world..... I'm sure they have victimized others whether with just theft &/or theft & death for a lot less. It's because they can.... they know they are feared & use it to their advantage.

So WHY would they take and hide the body? Makes no sense. imo

 

[WellDone]

]So WHY would they take and hide the body? [/B] Makes no sense. imo

BBM

Well, IMO.... Apparently it's 2 gangs/cartels fighting over the area... so it would make sense to avoid LE getting in their area/business. I'm sure they "tolerate" LE to a degree... more of an avoidance... I'm certain they wouldn't want a search with even more people & publicity, but that's what it's turned out to be.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

As if there's crowds of us who don't?
Really?

If WE Americans didn't have such an appetite for the drugs, and if the Mexicans didn't want the guns so freely available here, there wouldn't be such a problem.

But thinking like that is immoral - right?

BBM: That bell can't be unrung. Those Border Patrol Agents are very brave to do what do.

MY point in my post is that Sheriff Gonzalez hasn't been BOUGHT by the drug cartels. And he is demanding the return of David's body. In my opinion Sheriff Gonzalez possesses morals AND compassion.

But to respond to your first comment, yes, I believe there are crowds of people in America lacking morals and compassion.