Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #1

[Linda7NJ]

Story is being covered now on JVM.

A reporter named Will is saying that he saw the jetski and there is no physical damage or sign of a struggle. He saw the jetski the day the incident was reported.

Whose jetski? Hers?

I don't believe she tried to get him on it.

 

[sorrell skye]

I wonder what type of life vest he was wearing - some are designed to flip a person face-up to prevent drowning.

 

[easttexas]

My hardest part about this story is....why did they want to see whatever it was they went to see. The ruins I think is what she called it. Am I just too old or too cautious to get this? I just can't see someone thinking "well, there is high risk...we know there are pirates in the area....but I really want to see this....want to go with me honey??? I know let's take the jet skis...it's only 10 miles." And what man wants to put his dear wife in danger like that?????to see something. My hinky meter hit HIGH on this one. They very well might have gone there to do something.....but the ruins had NOTHING to do with it. Whatever it was would be worth the risk (to them, not me) in my opinion....drugs.

 

[Intermezzo]

As far as I know, the husband was just shot for being on the Mexican side of the lake - no demands were made.

Hi woe :wave:
Thanks.

 

[Intermezzo]

Glad you ventured here Spread those wings!

No others ( fisherman) have been shot on the spot like this guy allegedly was. Robbed, yes.

I still can't understand how he was shot between the eyes while being chased on a jet ski.

According to her, as she tried to get her shot husband onto her jet ski....their boat was 10 feet away from her and a gun was pointed at her. They apparently decided not to shoot her and retreated. God told her she had to leave, so she did.

The "witness" reported story does not match her own account.

Thanks..

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

There is a lady that said she and her husband were fishing and did in fact hear the gun shots.

"Mrs. Hartley, My husband and I were fishing on the Mexico side of Falcon that afternoon. We did hear gunfire and later saw the Border Patrol helicopter frantically flying over the area of the house that sits on the tip of a point(USA). We k...new then that something really bad had happened. Our first thought was dove hunters but the shooting just didn't stop. Gov. Rick Perry stated that the Mexican officals haven't had anyone say they heard gunshots. They didn't ask US! They are evil and we will not let them get away with this. Pray without ceasing! We are so upset about this and will do everything we can to help you. We live in Odessa and it is happening here. God Bless you and David's family. We are praying for his return and for justice."

http://www.facebook.com/search/?ini...onor-of-David-Michael-Hartley/135397963173935

 

[scapa]

Well I dunno. This is an oddball case, and my reservations really echo a lot of what has already been noted in this thread. The thing is, the more I think about it the less likely the original scenario seems.

I'm a long-time sailor and lifeguard. I grew up on a big lake w/ boats and have a fair bit of experience with jetskis (though I can't stand 'em as a rule). First off, in a contest between anything short of a high-end speedboat and a jetski, for pace and agility, a jetski wins every time. Shorter, narrower, less friction, quicker acceleration, smaller turning circle. I'm not clear on the precise run of events (is anyone?) but shooting accurately at a moving target from a moving target -- and boats, unlike cars, will be swaying side to side, up and down and back to front -- would be very difficult. Given that one of these targets is a jetski, I'd say this would require an expert marksperson or some terrific luck.

Next, unless this is a heavily islanded lake, you'd see and hear boats coming from a long way away -- and, knowing these are pirate-infested waters, likely be tempted to scoot. Why stick around? Were they in convoy? Surrounded? Cut-off? How did they ever get themselves into the situation in the first place, given their familiarity with the place and its dangers? The obvious response -- it's Mexico, anything terrible can happen -- is also the reason not to have gone in the first place, no?

Then, why the fatal shot to the head? What's the percentage in it? No ransom? No theft? If I'm a pirate looking to extort, the smart move, surely, is to be both ruthless and (strange as it is to say it) honest, because a live hostage has a better payout than a dead (and disappeared) one. And if these are just plumb homicidal pirates, why let her get away?

I'm agnostic about the talk-show appearances if only because they seem almost routine now for those involved in high-profile crimes. But the story of the crime itself seems both too precise and too vague, as if the original story is starting to show a few cracks under the heavy pressure of full-on media (and websleuther) interest and so is being revised on the fly. Again, it may end up being absolutely as odd but true as T says. But it's a leap.

s

 

[darnudes]

I still have many doubts about Tiffany's story and if I am doing her a grave injustice I will be the first to apologise.

I have watched the NBC interview from today and it still raises red flags in my mind.

Possible theory - What if Tiffany shot her husband and the Mexican's witnessed it and were chasing her to apprehend her, they then realise they are in American waters and decide to stop, maybe they have drugs on board and would not be believed, thinking that American LE would take Tiffany's word over theirs. Decide not to get involved. This would not account for his body going missing, however, if he was indeed shot in the lake.

 

[darnudes]

Well I dunno. This is an oddball case, and my reservations really echo a lot of what has already been noted in this thread. The thing is, the more I think about it the less likely the original scenario seems.

I'm a long-time sailor and lifeguard. I grew up on a big lake w/ boats and have a fair bit of experience with jetskis (though I can't stand 'em as a rule). First off, in a contest between anything short of a high-end speedboat and a jetski, for pace and agility, a jetski wins every time. Shorter, narrower, less friction, quicker acceleration, smaller turning circle. I'm not clear on the precise run of events (is anyone?) but shooting accurately at a moving target from a moving target -- and boats, unlike cars, will be swaying side to side, up and down and back to front -- would be very difficult. Given that one of these targets is a jetski, I'd say this would require an expert marksperson or some terrific luck.

Next, unless this is a heavily islanded lake, you'd see and hear boats coming from a long way away -- and, knowing these are pirate-infested waters, likely be tempted to scoot. Why stick around? Were they in convoy? Surrounded? Cut-off? How did they ever get themselves into the situation in the first place, given their familiarity with the place and its dangers? The obvious response -- it's Mexico, anything terrible can happen -- is also the reason not to have gone in the first place, no?

Then, why the fatal shot to the head? What's the percentage in it? No ransom? No theft? If I'm a pirate looking to extort, the smart move, surely, is to be both ruthless and (strange as it is to say it) honest, because a live hostage has a better payout than a dead (and disappeared) one. And if these are just plumb homicidal pirates, why let her get away?

I'm agnostic about the talk-show appearances if only because they seem almost routine now for those involved in high-profile crimes. But the story of the crime itself seems both too precise and too vague, as if the original story is starting to show a few cracks under the heavy pressure of full-on media (and websleuther) interest and so is being revised on the fly. Again, it may end up being absolutely as odd but true as T says. But it's a leap.

s

Great post Scapa! I wanted to do more than just click the thanks button.

I love the perspective you bring to this story with your knowledge of boats and sailing, much appreciated. I echo your sentiments entirely and hope you continue to follow this case.

 

[easttexas]

Well I dunno. This is an oddball case, and my reservations really echo a lot of what has already been noted in this thread. The thing is, the more I think about it the less likely the original scenario seems.

I'm a long-time sailor and lifeguard. I grew up on a big lake w/ boats and have a fair bit of experience with jetskis (though I can't stand 'em as a rule). First off, in a contest between anything short of a high-end speedboat and a jetski, for pace and agility, a jetski wins every time. Shorter, narrower, less friction, quicker acceleration, smaller turning circle. I'm not clear on the precise run of events (is anyone?) but shooting accurately at a moving target from a moving target -- and boats, unlike cars, will be swaying side to side, up and down and back to front -- would be very difficult. Given that one of these targets is a jetski, I'd say this would require an expert marksperson or some terrific luck.
Next, unless this is a heavily islanded lake, you'd see and hear boats coming from a long way away -- and, knowing these are pirate-infested waters, likely be tempted to scoot. Why stick around? Were they in convoy? Surrounded? Cut-off? How did they ever get themselves into the situation in the first place, given their familiarity with the place and its dangers? The obvious response -- it's Mexico, anything terrible can happen -- is also the reason not to have gone in the first place, no?

Then, why the fatal shot to the head? What's the percentage in it? No ransom? No theft? If I'm a pirate looking to extort, the smart move, surely, is to be both ruthless and (strange as it is to say it) honest, because a live hostage has a better payout than a dead (and disappeared) one. And if these are just plumb homicidal pirates, why let her get away?

I'm agnostic about the talk-show appearances if only because they seem almost routine now for those involved in high-profile crimes. But the story of the crime itself seems both too precise and too vague, as if the original story is starting to show a few cracks under the heavy pressure of full-on media (and websleuther) interest and so is being revised on the fly. Again, it may end up being absolutely as odd but true as T says. But it's a leap.

s

Bolded by me. And with that happeining what are the odds that her jet ski wasn't hit by a bullet. She heard bullets whiz by her...so she left. And if she was trying to get him onto her jet ski (huge IF) she was stopped in the water. It is amazing to me that they hit him (marksmanship) on the move and then she is stopped in the water and drawn on but never fired upon...

 

[truecrimejunkie]

this story just gets weirder. I dont understand why the US sheriff wont work with the Mexican authorities. He says it would be too dangerous. I would think they could negotiate some ground rules to try and find this man and bring him home to his family.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...f_declined_invite_to_help_with_search_for.php

from the today show:

Vieira asked the sheriff if he'd prefer for his staff to be included in the search. Gonzalez said that, actually, he'd turned down an offer to cross the border to assist.

"Well, it's not necessarily that we're being left out," Gonzalez said. "We have been invited to participate, just last night, to actually go to Mexico and participate. We have chosen, however, to remain here, simply because it's dangerous.

 

[MsFacetious]

Tiffany Hartley has STILL apparently NOT filed an official complaint...which is needed for an official search.

I saw some interesting comments left on the abc story, and wanted to do some searching, and was wondering if anyone knows her maiden name?

According to media reports it is Tiffany Young-Hartley. Also according to her facebook.

Does anyone know how long they have been married?

They have been married for 8 years. June 1, 2002.

Whose jetski? Hers?

I don't believe she tried to get him on it.

Tiffany says IN the original 911 call that her husband was shot "in the head."

That she TRIED to pull him onto her jet ski but he was "just too big."

She says that she got OFF of her jet ski, went over and flipped him over and saw the bullet hole.


Why would you even try to get him on your jet ski? I am precisely the same size as Tiffany. My father is about the same size as her husband. In a situation where he was unconscious and I needed to get out of the area immediately, I would grab onto the life jacket and pull him next to the jet ski while I drove. She had already flipped him over onto his back, so there wouldn't have been nearly as much drag as if he'd been face first. I would do that until I could get further away from the guys shooting, where I could likely pull him onto the jet ski or yell for help.

Why would they just shoot this guy dead, with no motive? They had no money obviously. They didn't take her wedding ring, or hold either of them for ransom. They didn't abduct her and rape her. They didn't kill her, the witness. This is nothing like the other robberies in the area, it doesn't fit the pattern. Unless there was some other motive for him to be killed, it makes no sense.


Meanwhile, the profile photo for David Hartley’s Facebook page changed on Friday — the day after he was reported missing — and he added new friends.

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/articles/falcon-117639-heights-police.html

The profile picture it changed to was uploaded, not just changed on Oct 1 and is of the water. He was gunned down on the 30th. I don't know about you... but I wouldn't be in the mood to change my husband's profile picture the day after seeing him get shot in the head.

If other people have reported that the pirates tried to "lure" them across the border, why would they chase her so far into US waters when they already decided not to kill her?

Held a gun to her head??? From a boat?

No, that is a new one for me. I had only heard that she was looking down the barrel of a gun and it was "the length of" her jet ski away from her...which was "about 10 feet."

So the "looking down the barrel of a gun" was not a figure of speech if it was ten feet away.

Has this been posted yet?

"Three boats approached them, waving guns talking in Spanish," he [the Good Samaritan] said. "They got scared, spooked then they heard the gunshots going on. She could see they were hitting the water and the water was coming up at them. All of a sudden she sees her husband flying off."

Tiffany told him she turned around to go take care of her husband, but two pirates went after her jetski. One pirate held a gun to her head. Once he left she tried to pull her husband body onto her jetski but she didn't have the strength.

http://www.krgv.com/news/local/stor...er-on-Falcon-Lake/uswGSvm9Hku0eC9foze9Yw.cspx

I haven't read/heard this account before - of one of the *pirates* holding a gun to Tiffany Hartley's head.

Anyone else?

The pirates didn't speak to Tiffany, they only spoke in Spanish to each other "trying to decide what to do with" her.

They just shot him in the back of the head and then shot at her, but miraculously missed her and her jet ski.

All other cases the people have been robbed and they have been on boats. Obviously on a jet ski you don't have your wallet or your rolex on you.

Have other boaters on this lake been shot at and/or killed on the spot like this guy was?

I didn't get to watch the whole segment with the wife but did she say the pirates demanded anything such as money? or did they just show up and shot her husband?

sbm

 

[sorrell skye]

In one of her interviews (on the Today Show with Michelle Vieira), Tiffany stated (in response to a question from Vieira) that she can't identify or describe (paraphrasing) the pirate shooters, because she was focused on "the barrel of the gun".

If that's true, then why did the early account of the *pirates* describe them as "teenage pirates"?

Viera: Yesterday, you told me, Tiffany, that 'one of the boats came up to me' -- this is your quote -- 'and had a gun pointed at me, trying to decide what to do with me, and then they left.' How close did these people come to you? Can you describe them to me?'

Hartley: Honestly, looking at the barrel of the gun is all I saw. I was pretty focused there. I couldn't tell you what they look like. But they were within the length of my jet ski of me, which is about 10 feet."

[ame="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/39533190#39533190"]Today Show Video Player[/ame]

Again, if she is unable to describe what they looked like, then why were they described as being "teenage pirates" when this story first broke?

Here's the link to the article that describes the shooters as "teenage pirates":

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mexican-pi...erican-begs-hillary-clinton/story?id=11801126

I'm wondering where the info came from that described them as "teenage pirates" - was it from Tiffany herself, or from someone else, or did the reporter @ ABC News make it up?

 

[MsFacetious]

Mexican Officers Call Off Search for David Hartley

They are receiving threats from cartels

The search for the body of a man killed by Mexican Pirates is on hold tonight. David Hartley's family is now appealing to Mexico's president for help.

Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez Jr. says the cartels who may have killed David Hartley threatened Mexican officers and the people who live in the town of Guerrero.

The sheriff says he is now waiting for Mexican investigators to tell him when they'll resume the search for Hartley. He does not think it will resume tomorrow.

http://www.krgv.com/news/local/stor...for-David-Hartley/vl9PJrcypE6gSXp9BZX5-Q.cspx

 

[luvsleuthing2]

I do not believe her story..it's uncrediable that they were being shot at as she says and not one bullet hit her jet ski, not one..yet she was allowed to ski back after having a gun pointed at her and try to retrieve her floating husband's body?...but there were bullots all over the place and she could see it in the water next to them..Bull sh**. I think she and someone else offed him.. JMO!!

 

[sorrell skye]

I wonder if the Sheriff is up for re-election this year or next?

Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez Jr. says the cartels who may have killed David Hartley threatened Mexican officers and the people who live in the town of Guerrero.

http://www.krgv.com/news/local/stor...for-David-Hartley/vl9PJrcypE6gSXp9BZX5-Q.cspx

I've read that the town of Old Guerrero is basically a ghost town.

http://texaslesstraveled.com/oldguerrero.htm

Old Guerrero, as it has been called since the residents of the town were forced-relocated to a newly constructed city some 13 miles to the south, has reappeared on the Texas-Mexico border since a decade of drought and water shortages have caused the waters of Lake Falcon to recede. More @ above link.

IDK - but I wonder if anyone actually lives in Old Guerrero (since it has been described as a "ghost town"). If so, what "people of the town" would these cartels be threatening?

So many questions, so few answers.

 

[sorrell skye]

IDK - but this whole story strikes me as possible political maneuvering, not to mention that very little of Tiffany's account of what allegedly happened that day makes sense (at least to me).

U.S./Mexico border control has been a hot-button issue for many years now.

I would hate to see this *event* (whatever this *event* ultimately turns out to be) manipulated in order to inflame the border control conflict between the U.S. & Mexico.

 

[MsFacetious]

I saw some interesting comments left on the abc story, and wanted to do some searching, and was wondering if anyone knows her maiden name?

There really isn't much on her at all...even with her maiden name of Young. I can't find anything as far as previous relationships or criminal backgrounds. I know she and David met as teenagers. But I wonder if they have been together since then? If either one of them even dated anyone else?

 

[sorrell skye]

Vieira: "Why do you believe that authorities have cast doubts on your story?"

Hartley: "Because we do have no evidence. I - we were in Mexico, and U.S. authorities can't go over there and I have no proof - I have no cameras - I have nothing - Um, I don't have the photos that we were taking. I don't have anything except for my word."

I gotta hand it to Michelle Vieira - she asked the hard questions.

 

[sorrell skye]

I wonder if Tiffany has photos that she & her husband took of the partially-sunken Mission the day they went to Old Guerrero?

I mean - after all, that was the reason she said she & her husband went across Falcon Lake into Mexican territory to Old Guerrero to begin with, was it not - to photograph the Mission?

And yet now she says, "I have no cameras - I have nothing - Um, I don't have the photos that we were taking..."