Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #2

[Linda7NJ]

On the audio interview she is now posing as a drug advocate. Give me a break . She mentions it may be an option to take a lie detector test. I can't wait for the day for this woman to be indicted for the involvement of what-ever crime took place. YOU WITNESS YOUR HUSBANDS BRAINS GET BLOWN AWAY AND A FEW DAYS LATER YOUR ON EVERY MEDIA OUTLET BEING GIDDY AND HAPPY!!! NOT!!! Justice will be served on this attention seeker.

I so hope you're right.

But I don't see how...there are simply too many polital agendas, too much BS in general. imo

 

[Linda7NJ]

Good morning and welcome to WS ozonetourist! Thank you for contributing to our discussion. I have a question that you might be able to answer since you are in Federal law enforcement: if you had three boats pursuing two jet ski's, one ski in front, one behind, with the individuals in the boats armed with machine guns (AK-47's from previous news reports of previous run-ins), if the occupants of the boat were spraying the water with bullets (possible with machine guns, yes?) is it not possible by complete accident and sheer volume to get one high enough to strike the person on the trailing jet ski? If each boat had three persons in it (no, I do not know this, I'm speculating but guessing there must be more than one driver in each boat or what is the point?), that would leave six men free to shoot until they ran out of ammo. I'm no arms expert such as yourself, but that scenario doesn't seem out of the realm of possiblity to me when you are talking about six machine guns firing at the same time at the same target. One web site I saw stated an AK-47 could fire approximately 600 rounds per minute. Multiply that times 6 and that would be 3600 bullets - potentially - spraying the water per minute. 60 bullets per second. That is alot of bullets and a lot of potential for hitting a target in my humble, civilian opinion. If it has an effective range of 1,300 ft (433.33 yds) I would assume they could reach the jet skis given the distances Tiffany has indicated they were away, and I would also assume she might be able to see bullets flying into the water around her given the previous calculations. What am I missing here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47 - BBM



Also from same wiki:


Yes it is baffling that she, nor her jet ski were struck by any of these 60 rounds per second, but stranger things have happened. If David was behind her, and in between her and the boats, his body and jet ski would be protecting her....:twocents: As far as her having his keys, did you read that somewhere or are you assuming she had them?

By her own account, she was staring down a gun barrel, 10 feet away.

 

[Mom_of_M&M]

I rarely post but I've been following this story and I just wanted to add my opinion about TH's behavior. I was involved in a car accident that killed my boyfriend years ago. I stayed with him until help arrived and I knew he was dead. From that moment on, I was a different person. I, too was like Tiffany and could recite what happened that day without emotion. Friends & family asked me so many questions about what happened that I could tell the story like it was nothing. Several months later I began having terrible panic attacks and was diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I am a very emotional person but for some reason I was trying to block out what had happened and it took a toll on me. I was trying to be strong. I think people think they know how they would act if something traumatic happened to them but the truth is, you don't know until you go through it. I'm not sure if I believe Tiffany but I don't find her behavior odd at all...everyone handles things differently. Just my opinion. :innocent:

 

[ozonetourist]

In my opinion I would assume that if rounds were being discharged at an extreme high rate per minute , they would both be struck somewhere either on the body or the watercraft. It is not reasonable to think that only one round out of thousands fired hit their target.To put this into perspective; When on the battlefield, we tend to select auto on the rifle to spray our target. Very seldomly will we launch "BRASS" (Breath, Relax, Aim Shoot) as a sniper would. I am also a former Marine and have studied all aspects of marksmanship, unfortunately Tiffany has not. Law enforcement looks forward to every time she appears in an interview. This last audio interview is going to seal the case for them.

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

DH mom is the one who said he wanted to go and take pictures of that old church. She said that he had called her earlier that morning with where and what he and TH were planning on doing that day. I always thought that info came from TH.

P. HARTLEY: Yes.

BALDWIN: Yes.

P. HARTLEY: Like, I spoke to David that morning before they went out there.

BALDWIN: What did he say to you?

(CROSSTALK)

P. HARTLEY: Pardon?

BALDWIN: What did he say to you in that phone conversation?

P. HARTLEY: He was -- he told me where they were going. He loves history. And they have been wanting to go to that church since it's been down here. They're not tourists. They've lived here for almost three years. They know where to go and where not to go.

And I asked David. I said, is it safe? And he said there's been nothing down there for months. He never would have taken Tiffany anywhere where she would have been in danger. Never. He crossed the border to go to work. He was safe. He always stayed safe.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1010/05/cnr.08.html

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Apparently these are simultaneously both the best shooters in the world and the worst.

I mean, they manage to shoot a man moving away from them at 70-75 MPH, from a moving boat themselves, square in the back of the head.

Then firing with the same weapons at presumably the same speeds at said man's wife fleeing from them, they can't even manage to hit her or her jet ski once.

 

[IWannaKnow]

By her own account, she was staring down a gun barrel, 10 feet away.

AFTER David was shot, and she went back for him. They were surrounded at that point and that was when she said they were pointing a gun at her from 10 ft away IIRC. I have not seen or read anything that says or implies that they were 10 ft away when they shot David - can you link to that?

Has anyone turned up this big insurance policy which is presumably the reason for Tiffany shooting him in the head while on a sight seeing tour?

 

[ozonetourist]

Once she hires an attorney which should be very soon, She will make no more TV appearances. That would be a sign that the Attorney feels that she is involved in what-ever took place.

 

[Linda7NJ]

AFTER David was shot, and she went back for him. They were surrounded at that point and that was when she said they were pointing a gun at her from 10 ft away IIRC. I have not seen or read anything that says or implies that they were 10 ft away when they shot David - can you link to that?

Has anyone turned up this big insurance policy which is presumably the reason for Tiffany shooting him in the head while on a sight seeing tour?

My point, at two points in time she claims she was shot at, both before and after David was shot. She claimed they chased her well back into US waters, yet at one point...they were 10 feet away with a gun pointed directly at her face. It doesn't make sense.

 

[IWannaKnow]

Apparently these are simultaneously both the best shooters in the world and the worst.

I mean, they manage to shoot a man moving away from them at 70-75 MPH, from a moving boat themselves, square in the back of the head.

Then firing with the same weapons at presumably the same speeds at said man's wife fleeing from them, they can't even manage to hit her or her jet ski once.

Could you provide a link for that please - I haven't read that they have decided that he was moving at that rate of speed.

 

[IWannaKnow]

My point, at two points in time she claims she was shot at, both before and after David was shot. She claimed they chased her well back into US waters, yet at one point...they were 10 feet away with a gun pointed directly at her face. It doesn't make sense.

I stand by my opinion that they wanted to kidnap Tiffany and were probably chattering about how to get her into the boat, pointing guns at her from 10 ft away when she took off on her jet ski. I do not think they anticipated that action from her. Putting large bullet holes into her would ruin the merchandise. :twocents: She was worth far, far more to them than any jet ski, watch, camera, wallet.....until she ran and they realized she might get away.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129426547

Mexico's Drug War Spawns Wave Of Kidnappings

Seoane says that one of the difficulties in Mexico is that the drug cartels have now gotten into kidnapping to supplement their income. He says some of these gangs don't understand the complexity of ransom negotiations and they also tend to be much more violent. Seoane says there used to be a criminal code of conduct in Mexico, but not any longer.

"There are no codes. There are no boundaries. There are no limits. There is a high degree of impunity," he says. "That's the big worry of all of us that live in Mexico. There were limits in the past; now there are no limits."

 

[dgfred]

AFTER David was shot, and she went back for him. They were surrounded at that point and that was when she said they were pointing a gun at her from 10 ft away IIRC. I have not seen or read anything that says or implies that they were 10 ft away when they shot David - can you link to that?

Has anyone turned up this big insurance policy which is presumably the reason for Tiffany shooting him in the head while on a sight seeing tour?

Insurance doesn't have to be the only 'reason' he could have been shot for:

Boyfriend? Girlfriend?
Drugs or deal for?
Murder for hire?
etc?

 

[Intermezzo]

DH mom is the one who said he wanted to go and take pictures of that old church. She said that he had called her earlier that morning with where and what he and TH were planning on doing that day. I always thought that info came from TH.

P. HARTLEY: Yes.

BALDWIN: Yes.

P. HARTLEY: Like, I spoke to David that morning before they went out there.

BALDWIN: What did he say to you?

(CROSSTALK)

P. HARTLEY: Pardon?

BALDWIN: What did he say to you in that phone conversation?

P. HARTLEY: He was -- he told me where they were going. He loves history. And they have been wanting to go to that church since it's been down here. They're not tourists. They've lived here for almost three years. They know where to go and where not to go.

And I asked David. I said, is it safe? And he said there's been nothing down there for months. He never would have taken Tiffany anywhere where she would have been in danger. Never. He crossed the border to go to work. He was safe. He always stayed safe.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1010/05/cnr.08.html

Thank you for this post. His mother was concerned enough to mention it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/11/earlyshow/main6946795.shtml
snipped

"dash cam video taken from a police cruiser provides more support for Tiffany Hartley's story that Mexican pirates attacked the couple while they were jet skiing on the lake and taking pictures of a sunken church.

In a video shot from a police "dash-cam," the couple can be seen being pulled over shortly before getting to the lake, jet skis in tow.

The trooper can be heard asking, "Where you headed to?"

David Hartley replies, "Out to Falcon"

The trooper says, "To Falcon?"

David says, "Yeah."

The trooper says, "Going jet skiing for the day, or what?"

David can be heard saying, "Yeah, I figure we'll play around for a bit."

Johnny Hernandez, of the Texas Department of Public Safety, told CBS News, "It proves that they were together. That they were en route to Falcon Lake to enjoy the day."

Tiffany said on "The Early Show," the border patrol saw the couple several times on their way to the lake. "
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I would expect them to be together in these videos, these were taken BEFORE they launched the jet ski in the water at Falcon Lake and headed towards Mexico.

David did not reveal to LE, when they got pulled over and questioned, that their purpose for going to Falcon that day was because they intended to cross into Mexico and visit Old Guerrero.

According to the transcript there is NO mention from David that they intended to cross into Mexico for some sightseeing even though the Trooper probed more and asked "going jet skiing for the day or what?" and David answers "yeah, I figure we'll play around for a bit"

I can't explain Why, but this is bothering me. It could be nothing at all and maybe it is, yet I am unsettled.

 

[darnudes]

AFTER David was shot, and she went back for him. They were surrounded at that point and that was when she said they were pointing a gun at her from 10 ft away IIRC. I have not seen or read anything that says or implies that they were 10 ft away when they shot David - can you link to that?

Has anyone turned up this big insurance policy which is presumably the reason for Tiffany shooting him in the head while on a sight seeing tour?

No not yet, but I'm not looking. I don't believe it is an insurance scam.

 

[dgfred]

I stand by my opinion that they wanted to kidnap Tiffany and were probably chattering about how to get her into the boat, pointing guns at her from 10 ft away when she took off on her jet ski. I do not think they anticipated that action from her. Putting large bullet holes into her would ruin the merchandise. :twocents: She was worth far, far more to them than any jet ski, watch, camera, wallet.....until she ran and they realized she might get away.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129426547

Mexico's Drug War Spawns Wave Of Kidnappings

Kidnap maybe... but they wouldn't have let an eye-witness to a murder escape so easily IMO.

 

[darnudes]

Could you provide a link for that please - I haven't read that they have decided that he was moving at that rate of speed.

Well the investigators haven't investigated, have they? No reason to, crime happened in Mexico, by drug cartel, Tiffany is telling the truth - what investigation.

 

[Kat]

Hey everyone, just posting a quick thought. I have been loosely following this since it happened, but not closely following.

Something isn't right and I haven't been able to put my finger on it yet. (I've read the threads an am pondering all the info as well this morning).

Even without taking into consideration the convo on these first 2 pages of this thread (thanks for your insight ozonetourist) why would these men that are tenatively identified as being with the Los Zetas murder someone who just happened to cross over the border by about five miles or so on jetskis as tourists?

To rob them? Naw. Then why not rob the deceased man and leave him floating? If they took him to leave a message he would have already been found. Decapitated, more than likely, and posed so as many passerbys as possible could see him. JMHO.

Zetas are some of the most dangerous that operate on the border but that story doesn't sound right. It just doesn't. There has to either be more that we don't know, or we aren't being told exactly what happened. JMHO.

As for the official that was decapitated. I'm not sure that is directly connected to this tourist's story. I just am not convinced that his murder was completely and solely because of this tourist's death. JMHO.

I just can't put my finger on it! I lived directly on the border last year. I have the suspicion we aren't getting the complete story from the man's wife or she didn't know the complete story (giving her the benefit of the doubt).

Always JMHO at this point in time.

 

[IWannaKnow]

Well the investigators haven't investigated, have they? No reason to, crime happened in Mexico, by drug cartel, Tiffany is telling the truth - what investigation.

They haven't investigated? Then who are all those people looking for David's body? What about the Mexican investigator who had his head removed for looking for David's body? I sure hope he counts.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Could you provide a link for that please - I haven't read that they have decided that he was moving at that rate of speed.

I was going by Tiffany's own words. Here is the link:

http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publishe...topicId=100018248&docId=l:1276414631&start=10

At one point she says she and David were racing as fast as they could away from the shooters, then a little later she says the jet skis can go 70, 75 miles per hour. So if you believe she's telling the truth, ergo she and David were racing away at 70, 75 miles per hour.

 

[Kat]

Kidnap the wife? Well I suppose anything is possible. Did they know who she was? Did they know her family was weathy enough to pay a ransom? Just some questions to consider. Because

We usually see kidnappings of that sort deeper into the country of Mexico. The cartels controlling the border will and do come into the US and extract who it is they have a beef with and take them back to Mexico. (Saw this happen a few times in the city I lived in last year) Those people are usually found fairly quickly laying in the streets with their heads resting nearby or on their chests. Every once in a while they would come over the border and try to extract the wrong person because they had the wrong house or something. But nine times out of 10 those murdered had a direct relation with a cartel.That's what I'm scratchin my head about over here, the part I highlighted above.