GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[cottonweaver]

Here we go.
The facebook message from JC to boyfriend on the morning of 11-30.
This is 2 days after JC went to the shooting range with the handgun.
JC testified that James put the gun in her car on 11-28 and when she returned from shooting range 11-28 he brought the gun into the house,
She didn't know where he put it.

Yet the evidence presented at trial tells a completely different story.

' A few hours before the shooting, Jennifer and James Crumbley were called to the school to have a meeting with counselors and the dean of students, and she messaged Meloche and told him that she was afraid her son would do something dumb.


Meloche responded by asking Jennifer Crumbley where the gun was, and she said it was in her vehicle. He told it that it shouldn't be there. '

Brian Meloche, man who had an affair with Jennifer Crumbley, testifies about messages exchanged after Oxford shooting

Brian Meloche, a friend of Jennifer Crumbley and someone she was having an affair with, testified in her trial.

www.cbsnews.com

easier if WS-ers can hear what he said?
starts at 4.15

Foreseeability of risk of harm. what JC was aware of before she attended the meeting with the counsellors.

In the conversation with Bryan before she rushed to the school, she already foresaw the risk 'he'd do something dumb' and B replied to her immediately wtte of where's the gun?
After JC had this conversation with Bryan, did ' hyper-vigilant' JC go check her car before she headed to OHS in the parking lot at work? Possibly, but it makes the post too long if I get into that.

Just to add that this is the kind of critical detail & direct evidence that the talking heads on TV and the lawtubers on YT also probably missed but I guess the jurors would've caught ( also why it tends to be mentioned more often on WS or on sites where people had to sit through the - imo pain in the A - messy trial interrupted by endless speaking objections, whining and delays. Again imo, the jury was so professional to put up with so much Cr.. )

 

[Weki]

easier if WS-ers can hear what he said?
starts at 4.15

Foreseeability of risk of harm. what JC was aware of before she attended the meeting with the counsellors.

In the conversation with Bryan before she rushed to the school, she already foresaw the risk 'he'd do something dumb' and B replied to her immediately wtte of where's the gun?
After JC had this conversation with Bryan, did ' hyper-vigilant' JC go check her car before she headed to OHS in the parking lot at work? Possibly, but it makes the post too long if I get into that.

Just to add that this is the kind of critical detail & direct evidence that the talking heads on TV and the lawtubers on YT also probably missed but I guess the jurors would've caught ( also why it tends to be mentioned more often on WS or on sites where people had to sit through the - imo pain in the A - messy trial interrupted by endless speaking objections, whining and delays. Again imo, the jury was so professional to put up with so much Cr.. )

Right after Maloche said that and the prosecutor tries to admit those Facebook messages, Smith has a meltdown. And I think her whiny loud voice distracted from the critical evidence that Maloche JUST gave. Smith was playing a lot of psychological games throughout this trial. Of course she also did a decent job of making it seem like Maloche was compromised and threatened by LE. He admitted to being intimidated. 3 hours long interview??! Seems like a lot. JMO

 

[Gardenista]

Can anyone point me to an archive of the trial videos day by day? I’m looking for raw coverage, not edited podcasts with podcasters narrating. I’ve been looking around, but can’t find a place. Are any of the local tv stations keeping them on their websites? TIA!

Here's a playlist of the entire trial

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT2snNGWwa64v5LTOjhCeo-7U3iE5F-eA

 

[Gardenista]

After this verdict, I bet there are some worried parents of school shooters. There is no statute of limitations on murder

 

[cottonweaver]

Right after Maloche said that and the prosecutor tries to admit those Facebook messages, Smith has a meltdown. And I think her whiny loud voice distracted from the critical evidence that Maloche JUST gave. Smith was playing a lot of psychological games throughout this trial. Of course she also did a decent job of making it seem like Maloche was compromised and threatened by LE. He admitted to being intimidated. 3 hours long interview??! Seems like a lot. JMO

Yes and then in closings Shannon calls him ' idiot Bryan'
later on, redirect Bryan confirms he was never intimidated by any LEO so all her efforts came to naught

Agree on all the rest, it was frustrating to rewatch that clip while trying to track down a time-stamp just now and hard to focus on that testimony first time around when we were following live.
(If God forbid, I'd been on that jury, I would've been kicked off because I would've sent a note to the clerk at the end of day and asked to see the judge about control of that courtroom so that jury can do their job)

 

[cottonweaver]

New evidence and 2 new witnesses from Florida.
The consensus in reporting is that they're James's ex-girlfriend and his son by her, they reside in Florida.
Eli, his son who is not a minor now had lived with the Crumbley's in Michigan and worked at the diner.
I thought they'd be called by the state in this trial to testify against JC but they weren't.
The ex trashed James as a father big time and JC even more.
Could they be called by the state or the defense in James trial?

related NYP article
posting it just because it says 6 figure salary, at one point, IDK that

Ethan Crumbley’s father spoiled him rotten — but was a deadbeat dad to an older son he had with another woman, the ex says in a new interview.

Cobb claims that while James Crumbley was earning six figures, she had to fight for $67 a week child support for their son, Eli. “My son is 18 years old now,” she told Detroit’s WXYZ-TV. “And you know, I cried the moment he turned 18, because I thought all of this hell is over as far as dealing with my son’s father.”

The Florida woman also claimed James, 45, left their son, as well as a daughter he had with another woman in Florida, when he moved to Michigan with Jennifer.

Jennifer, meanwhile, made Eli’s life unbearable when he would visit. “Jennifer was a monster,” Cobb stated. “She could do no wrong and she was right about everything.
Eli was last at their Michigan home when the pandemic started, she said.
The ex also claimed that Ethan was spoiled. “They pretty much gave him whatever he wanted,”

Ex claims Ethan Crumbley’s father is a deadbeat, calls mother a ‘monster’

Ethan Crumbley’s father spoiled him rotten — but was a deadbeat dad to an older son he had with another woman.

nypost.com

photo of JC &JC in happier times Crumbley parents face rare, but not unprecedented, charges in Michigan school shooting

ETA James Crumbley's dad is doing media today pointing the finger of blame at the school, rather than his son. He also slams ' the system' and Law enforcement!
Why? Cause LEO don't attend to school shootings quickly enough
( A case of the apple doesn't fall far from the tree?)

 

[Weki]

Foreperson went on the Today show! Wow. Her interview was interesting as far as how she answered the questions. Very short answers. Seemed like she wanted to be super careful and not ramble on. But she said for her the main issue was that Jennifer was the last person who had possession of the gun and, therefore, it was her responsibility to secure it. I’m really confused by this. She also said the Ethan’s diary was not a huge deal to her but it was to others. As for JC’s testimony - she realized during deliberations that JC is an unreliable witness and she was aghast that she said ‘she wouldn’t change anything.’ Curious what others thought?

JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

Jury Foreperson speaks with Savannah Guthrie this morning.

video

https://www.today.com/video/juror-in-jennifer-crumbley-case-speaks-to-today-about-verdict-203765829999

 

[RickshawFan]

You’re right that there were no incessant cries for help from Kip Kinkel. In fairness to Kip’s parents, he didn’t tell them he was hearing voices, nor did he tell the counselor his mother sent him to when he got in trouble with some other kids. He didn’t want to be viewed as “retarded.” He did end up on an antidepressant for three months and then stopped. His father did let him pay for a gun and they went shooting together “to bond.” And, of course, his parents lost their lives to him.

It’s a tragic story. I only hope EC can be rehabilitated to the same degree Kip has apparently been.

Kip Kinkel Is Ready To Speak

At 15, he shot and killed his parents, two classmates at his school, and wounded 25 others. He’s been used as the reason to lock kids up for life ever since.

www.huffpost.com

I lived there at the time, but admit to missing some of the follow up. I was pretty ticked at how Kinkel’s parents were raising their child. And, as I recall, he had a whole arsenal in their home. IMO this is next dimension worse than not reading a child’s journal. There had to have been signs in the home about something going on.

IMO Ethan is a fifth victim in this case. I don’t see Kinkel in quite the same way. I don’t think either should have been put away for life.

 

[RickshawFan]

Foreperson went on the Today show! Wow. Her interview was interesting as far as how she answered the questions. Very short answers. Seemed like she wanted to be super careful and not ramble on. But she said for her the main issue was that Jennifer was the last person who had possession of the gun and, therefore, it was her responsibility to secure it. I’m really confused by this. She also said the Ethan’s diary was not a huge deal to her but it was to others. As for JC’s testimony - she realized during deliberations that JC is an unreliable witness and she was aghast that she said ‘she wouldn’t change anything.’ Curious what others thought?

JMO

I unfortunately got sidetracked by how much the JFP looks like Disney’s Snow White and how young jurors seem to be these days. (Not to mention, how young mothers look these days…) However, I’m impressed about how definite and sorted out she is. I think the jury did well in choosing her for their foreperson.

 

[Weki]

The psych evaluation of EC concluded that he had no psychosis. He wasn’t hallucinating or deluded. His actions were premeditated and calculated. He had planned it for months. He had violent tendencies. He was clam and collected throughout and after the shooting. This wasn’t some kid who lost control due to mental illness. I feel like he is manipulative and all that stuff he put in writing (to his friend and diary) was also calculated. He was angry at his parents.

I’m not saying the parents didn’t abandon/neglect him. But this kid was unnaturally violent even with the circumstances and the parents failures. JMO

 

[cottonweaver]

The psych evaluation of EC concluded that he had no psychosis. He wasn’t hallucinating or deluded. His actions were premeditated and calculated. He had planned it for months. He had violent tendencies. He was clam and collected throughout and after the shooting. This wasn’t some kid who lost control due to mental illness. I feel like he is manipulative and all that stuff he put in writing (to his friend and diary) was also calculated. He was angry at his parents.

I’m not saying the parents didn’t abandon/neglect him. But this kid was unnaturally violent even with the circumstances and the parents failures. JMO

which one of the psych evaluators and did she do the evaluation on him when he was experiencing the delusions or hallucinations or a couple of years later?

PS I agree that he was legally competent to stand trial but I think he was seriously disturbed at the time he committed the crimes. ( The other two psychs, King and the one who works at the jail said he has a couple of different disorders, but again, only evaluated him in 2022 or 2023 )

It might be interesting to see the OHS litigation to see if that raises anything extra about behaviour. No violence or real disciplinary record in all the years prior to the murders?

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

She won't be adding this case to her press cuttings page on her website!

Press Appearances - Shannon Smith Law

Our firm has been featured in most major news channels and media outlets such as CNN, Fox News, New York Times, and many more.

defendingabuse.com

ps why is her partner not listed on her site ( the atty for James who is or was part of Shannon's firm)

Shannon Smith and Mariell Lehman are no longer partners. Mariell now has her own practice in Macomb County.

Home - Attorney Mariell R. Lehman

Highly sought after criminal defense attorney Mariel Lehman

mlehmanlaw.com

 

[RickshawFan]

The psych evaluation of EC concluded that he had no psychosis. He wasn’t hallucinating or deluded. His actions were premeditated and calculated. He had planned it for months. He had violent tendencies. He was clam and collected throughout and after the shooting. This wasn’t some kid who lost control due to mental illness. I feel like he is manipulative and all that stuff he put in writing (to his friend and diary) was also calculated. He was angry at his parents.

I’m not saying the parents didn’t abandon/neglect him. But this kid was unnaturally violent even with the circumstances and the parents failures. JMO

IMO his parents had abandoned him for years (testimony of a neighbor). Traumatizing a child e.g. by neglect, rewires their brains permanently, so we can’t assume his violent tendencies existed independently of the way he was treated by them.

There was plenty enough in that household to create the conditions for either murder or suicide; you treat a child the way they did from a young age, at the very least, you’re going to get disordered thinking patterns, because normal human thinking patterns require certain parental (or parent-figure) interactions.

There is a lot of research current in this area. As an example that may not exactly be obvious, they have discovered that it’s not unusual for adopted children with behavior (issues), likely before they were adopted, to have poor internal rhythm. Treatment involves time on a trampoline, and having them bounce.
The lead scientist in this area is Van der Kolk.

Here’s a snippet of his work to summarize what I’m trying to say:

Traumatised people live in a world that's different from people who have not been traumatised. Their world looks different in every conceivable measure, whether it's brain or mind or body. It's a different planet.

Bessel van der Kolk

Healing trauma through mind and body - ABC listen

Boston Trauma Centre director Bessell van der Kolk believes that traumatic events affect people’s bodies as much as their brains. He explained to Lynne Malcolm why self-awareness is at the centre of his unconventional approach to therapy.

www.abc.net.au

I believe this is the speech where van der Kolk talks about trampolines. Hearing him speak like this may be the best way to latch onto the kinds of things he talks about. His focus is how child abuse changes the brain, including how violence comes about. Very compelling talk IMO.

 

[Izzylizzy]

So EC was no clearer either? It's just that it was 5am. Ok but the state never claimed that parents saw or knew he had taken the gun. ( just that it was a foreseeable risk as evidenced by James's panic to check gun was still at home)
Jennifer already testified that the gun was in the home ' because my husband told me' it was

The foreperson's answer to the reporter's question:

GUILTY - MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

One crucial factor that we found out from JC's testimony was when she said that when she got home from Black Friday shopping she was angry that James & EC weren't home yet because they delayed getting their Christmas tree. Not angry because James and EC were purchasing a semi-automatic handgun...

www.websleuths.com

It's hard to know for certain from a one-liner, what the JFP meant but I took her to mean that as far as the jury were concerned, JC was the last person seen - in evidence - handling the gun. TV producer then adds the CCTV image of JC carrying the gun in the case out of the shooting range, guessing that JFP meant that.

If the jury were hung-up on this point I wonder if they went & reviewed Jennifer's testimony on this point? IMO it doesn't stand up to scrutiny
( Also, because the judge told them they had to watch an entire testimony all over again, if they wanted to check a phrase or a point - it probably contributed to the deliberations? Two and a half hours testimony?)

at 3.29 timestamp ( worth re-watching through to 6m ' we can handle injuries' & how she instantly guessed he was a school shooter which is a point that's been discussed a lot on WS during the trial days.
' my husband phoned and asked me where I hid the bullets and that the gun was gone'

prior to that clip, her explanations on gun & ammo storage at 1hr 06 and returning from the gun range. How would you react as a juror to this testimony? Convincing to you?

You continue to outdo yourself with the articulate information you so generously give us.
Thank you!
After re-watching select parts of JC's testimony that you posted it becomes more obvious why the jury came to their guilty verdicts.
I would love to hear Dr. D's critique on the "gun & ammo storage at 1hr 06" and Jennifer's eye/eyelid movements.

 

[IDK]

Jury Foreperson speaks with Savannah Guthrie this morning.

video

https://www.today.com/video/juror-in-jennifer-crumbley-case-speaks-to-today-about-verdict-203765829999

What a well spoken young lady!

 

[Izzylizzy]

Jury finds Michigan school shooter’s mother Jennifer Crumbley guilty of manslaughter

A Michigan jury convicted a school shooter’s mother of involuntary manslaughter Tuesday in a first-of-its-kind trial to determine whether she had any responsibility in the deaths of four students in 2021. Prosecutors say Jennifer Crumbley was grossly negligent when she failed to tell Oxford...

news.yahoo.com

“You're the last adult to have possession of that gun,” assistant prosecutor Marc Keast said while cross-examining Jennifer Crumbley last week. “You saw your son shoot the last practice round before the (school) shooting on Nov. 30. You saw how he stood. ... He knew how to use the gun."

She's an adult out shooting a gun, she needs to secure that gun when she is done using it. If she rides a new bike would she leave it in the front yard and assume her husband would put it away?

........ Because bikes "are his thing?"

Well guns might be "his thing" but getting out of bed and doing chores correctly were not. She didn't trust him doing those things so why trust him to secure a deadly weapon?

Well guns might be "his thing" but getting out of bed and doing chores correctly were not. She didn't trust him doing those things so why trust him to secure a deadly weapon?

To clarify this was Weiki's comment which I disagreed with.

Izzylizzy said:
Edited to add - The gun had to have been inside the home. So I don’t know what the foreperson is talking about - what is the relevance of JC being the last person seen with the gun at the shooting range????

JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

What a well spoken young lady!

Right?
Her confidence reading the guilty verdicts spoke volumes.
Curious how she became the foreperson, or how one does.
The jurors can't speak to each other about the trial until they get in the jurors room.

 

[cottonweaver]

re that long post with clips on this page and this question:

'In the conversation with Bryan before she rushed to the school, she already foresaw the risk 'he'd do something dumb' and B replied to her immediately wtte of where's the gun?
After JC had this conversation with Bryan, did ' hyper-vigilant' JC go check her car before she headed to OHS in the parking lot at work? Possibly, but it makes the post too long if I get into that.

What about this scenario for Nov 30th?


C gets call from school
JC calls Bryan - do something stupid, gun in car ( detailed in the previous post)
What happens next?
Scenario: she checks her car in the lot before heading to OHS, gun isn't there. Next she tells James it’s not there. James replies that it will be at home and he'll check for it later .
Jennifer thinks - We can’t ask him now because if I search his bag and he has it, he’ll get suspended. It’s probably at home. Important to ' not get caught.' This is why they didn't check the back pack, but they just hoped it was at home despite realising it wasn't still in the car ( spare tyre box)


They attend OHS meeting. 12 mins. They leave at 11.16am..ish?
She goes back to work. James by phone logs onto door dashes so he doesn’t immediately go home and check if the gun is there.

12.51pm Police said Ethan opened fire inside Oxford High School
1:37 p.m. James returned home after learning of the active shooter situation at his son's school and dialled 911 ‘ 'I think my son took the gun,' Crumbley says
( around the same time, before either have been told the shooter is EC, she speaks with James.
She also texted Smith to say 'the gun is gone and so are the bullets' and other frantic texts followed, including: 'Omg Andy, he's going to kill himself. He must be the shooter.' )


Part of the 911 call, rest at the link
911 OPERATOR: 911 what is the location of your emergency?

JAMES CRUMBLEY: I am not really sure. I am at my house. There is an active shooter situation going on at the high school. My son goes to the high school. I have a missing gun at my house. I need an officer to come to my house right away please.

911 OPERATOR: OK, I am not going to be able to send anybody to your house right now, sir. They are on the active shooter situation right now.

JAMES CRUMBLEY: I understand that. There's a million cops there. I have a missing gun and my son is at the school. And we had to go meet with the counselor this morning because of something that he wrote on a test paper and then I was in town and I saw a whole bunch of cops going somewhere. And I made sure … I wanted to get to the high school to see if something was going on at the high school. And then somebody told me that there was an active shooter and then I raced home just to like find out and I think my son took the gun. I don’t know if it’s him. I don’t know what’s going on. I am really freaking out. My son’s name is Ethan Crumbley. C-R-U-M-B-L-E-Y.

911 call made by school shooter Ethan Crumbley's dad played in court

James Crumbley called 911 45 minutes after the shooting at Oxford High School in Michigan to report that his gun was missing, that he thought his son had taken it, and that he was 'freaking out.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

'I saw a whole bunch of cops going somewhere. And I made sure .....'
made sure of what

 

[RickshawFan]

Right?
Her confidence reading the guilty verdicts spoke volumes.
Curious how she became the foreperson, or how one does.
The jurors can't speak to each other about the trial until they get in the jurors room.

Maybe she was expert in dividing up the pizza in such a way that everyone was happy and felt heard about which topping they liked the best?

I’ve always wondered how the foreperson gets picked, too, since they can’t talk about trial until deliberations.