GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[dazed_ncurious]

This is all IMO, I think the state fumbled this case. Sometimes less is more. Also, when defense used the wording "expert opinion" in regards to the school counselor, prosecution should've pounced on that wording. This is in no way trying to put down the school staff, but they are NOT experts. An expert would be a neurologist, psychiatrist, or someone that is specifically trained for mental health issues. A school counselor is usually not trained to the same depth and usually they focus kore on social development. Also, teachers, counselors, are overworked, and underpaid, I appreciate what they do but as a parent I'm not going to put full trust into them to help my child who is crying for help. JC was inconvenienced when they called her to the school, she didn't take their concerns seriously, just as she didn't take EC seriously when he asked for help.

The mom also withheld information from the people they were claiming to be "experts", such as the voices EC claimed to hear, and hallucinations. --this is the information I think the prosecutors should've focused on more, and spent less time on her affairs, and what she did with her horses, IMO.

At the end of the day the school cannot force you to take your kid home. I'm guessing their protocol will be different going forward on how they handled this.

Schools shouldn't have more authority over kids than their parents do, so I guess I'd be more worried about what precedent that would set.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Jennifer Crumbley, 45, told jurors that it was her husband’s job to keep track of the gun. She also said she saw no signs of mental distress in her son.

“We would talk. We did a lot of things together,” she testified. “I trusted him, and I felt I had an open door. He could come to me about anything.”

The jury of six men and six women includes some gun owners or people who grew up with guns in their home.

In a journal found by police, Ethan Crumbley wrote that his parents wouldn’t listen to his pleas for help.

“I have zero help for my mental problems and it’s causing me to shoot up the … school,” he wrote.

Jury finds Jennifer Crumbley, the Michigan school shooter’s mother, guilty of manslaughter

PONTIAC, Mich. (AP) — A Michigan jury convicted a school shooter’s mother of involuntary manslaughter Tuesday in the killings of four students in 2021, making her the first parent in the U.S. to be…

www.wrbl.com

 

[IAMWAN]

Ah okay. what's the penalty for straw-purchase? if the state was to add that charge? It might be worth it.
Can the state now add that on this late? His trial due to start on March 6

I'm not sure -- A quick Google search:

"A purchaser of a firearm from an FFL who lies on the Federal Form 4473 about the identity of the ultimate possessor of the gun can be charged with making false statements on a Federal Firearms Transaction Record. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is denied by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."

(From: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/terminology/general-terms/straw-purchase/)

And

"Buying a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction is a "straw purchase".

• An illegal firearm purchase (straw purchase) is a federal crime.
• An illegal firearm purchase can bring a felony conviction sentence of ten years in jail and a fine of up to $250,000."

(From: Straw Purchasing | Dontlie.org)

 

[Izzylizzy]

This is from 2022. I would like to find out what happens with this case. Can the plaintiff prove the gun dealer knew the gun was for Ethan?

The dealer that sold the gun used in the Oxford High School shooting is being sued​

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/29/1108698652/oxford-high-school-shooting-gun-dealer-sued

This is the first federal lawsuit filed in relation to the shooting at Oxford High School that brings claims specifically against Acme Shooting Goods, the weapons dealer.​

The suit filed by the Mueller family alleges negligence on the part of both the school district and Acme. It claims the dealer sold the gun to Crumbley's father "despite actual and/or constructive knowledge that the father was engaging in an illicit straw purchase ... and that the Acme gun was intended for the shooter."

A straw purchase is when an individual purchases a gun on behalf of someone else while falsely claiming the purchase is for themselves. According to the lawsuit, both Crumbley and his father made comments in Acme's store that indicated the gun was actually intended for the then-15-year-old. The sales clerk sold the gun to the father anyway.

As of Aug.2023 ,according to this news story the Muller civil lawsuit was ongoing.
I haven't seen anything stating that the civil suit was dismissed.

Truck smashes into gun store that sold weapon used in Oxford High School mass shooting, several rifles stolen

The gun store that sold the weapon used in the Oxford High School mass shooting has been robbed after someone smashed a truck into the building Tuesday night.

www.audacy.com

 

[Cool Cats]

I'm not sure -- A quick Google search:

"A purchaser of a firearm from an FFL who lies on the Federal Form 4473 about the identity of the ultimate possessor of the gun can be charged with making false statements on a Federal Firearms Transaction Record. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is denied by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."

(From: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/terminology/general-terms/straw-purchase/)

And

"Buying a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction is a "straw purchase".

• An illegal firearm purchase (straw purchase) is a federal crime.
• An illegal firearm purchase can bring a felony conviction sentence of ten years in jail and a fine of up to $250,000."

(From: Straw Purchasing | Dontlie.org)

I thought parents bought guns for their kids? They have rifles made for children, even pink ones for girls.

It can't be a straw purchase because when a parent buys their kid a gun the parent has to be the one to purchase it. A kid under 18 can't purchase one.

So according to this lawsuit, every parent who buys their under 18 year old their own gun is committing the crime of a straw purchase.

2 Cents

 

[wyome]

Do you think parents should ever be legally a responsible party, too, if their teenager takes the household gun to school? Or do you think that no matter what, the parents should be legally immune? Do you think we should look at which cases cross that line and why, or do you think the line simply can't be crossed?

Yes, I do think parents should be held legally responsible in some cases.

In this case, I don't see how all can comfortably agree to find her guilty. She's made many statements that cannot be proven one way or another because James can't testify, her son can't testify.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I'm not sure -- A quick Google search:

"A purchaser of a firearm from an FFL who lies on the Federal Form 4473 about the identity of the ultimate possessor of the gun can be charged with making false statements on a Federal Firearms Transaction Record. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is denied by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."

(From: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/terminology/general-terms/straw-purchase/)

And

"Buying a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction is a "straw purchase".

• An illegal firearm purchase (straw purchase) is a federal crime.
• An illegal firearm purchase can bring a felony conviction sentence of ten years in jail and a fine of up to $250,000."

(From: Straw Purchasing | Dontlie.org)

The sales woman's testimony by Keast who sold JC the handgun which shows the evidence that JC checked the box that the purchase was for him.
@10:00

@ 20:05 Smith goes on about Jennifer's name is not on any of the 3 gun sales receipts that James purchased at Acme and the saleswoman says that she heard nothing that indicated the handgun was for the teen and not James.
The Muller lawsuit states otherwise, that there was talk between father and son about the gun being for son, which the sales woman denied on the stand.

They did go right to the handgun when they arrived at the store and paid in cash.
I hope the jury focuses on Jennifer's text about giving EC the gun as an early Christmas gift and focuses on the fact that it was illegal for a 15 yr old to own it.

 

[wyome]

If Jennifer is found "not guilty," do you think they might charge James with something different or add an additional charge?

I do wonder about this too. I think they will continue to charge him, and as you said, probably add a lesser charge to consider.

 

[GRT]

I thought parents bought guns for their kids? They have rifles made for children, even pink ones for girls.

It can't be a straw purchase because when a parent buys their kid a gun the parent has to be the one to purchase it. A kid under 18 can't purchase one.

So according to this lawsuit, every parent who buys their under 18 year old their own gun is committing the crime of a straw purchase.

2 Cents

A straw purchase isn't necessarily illegal.

You're right; parents can purchase guns for their kids -- and they do. But, lying on the Form might have made that an illegal straw purchase. I haven't really heard all that much about it in this case.

 

[GRT]

I hope the jury focuses on Jennifer's text about giving EC the gun as an early Christmas gift and focuses on the fact that it was illegal for a 15 yr old to own it.

---snipped for focus---

It's not illegal for a teen to possess a firearm in MI.

MCL - Section 750.234f - Michigan Legislature

www.legislature.mi.gov

 

[Izzylizzy]

I thought parents bought guns for their kids? They have rifles made for children, even pink ones for girls.

It can't be a straw purchase because when a parent buys their kid a gun the parent has to be the one to purchase it. A kid under 18 can't purchase one.

So according to this lawsuit, every parent who buys their under 18 year old their own gun is committing the crime of a straw purchase.

2 Cents

Could this be the legal problem for the parents giving their 15 yr old a semi-automatic handgun?

'Michigan also prohibits issuance of a handgun purchase license to any person under age 18.5 If the handgun is to be purchased from a federally licensed dealer, the applicant must be age 21 or older.6'

Minimum Age to Purchase & Possess in Michigan

Michigan generally prohibits persons under 18 from possessing firearms with exceptions for adult supervision, target ranges, and hunting.

giffords.org

 

[cottonweaver]

just a weird little snippet in absence of any news on verdict

JC's 'best friend' in jail, 19 year old Megan Imirowicz ( while both awaited their trials)

A young woman convicted of killing her father by burning him with a chemical drain cleaner was given a light sentence and released after more than a year in a suburban Detroit jail.
Imirowicz was arrested after throwing lye, a chemical drain cleaner, on Konrad Imirowicz, 64, while he was sleeping in 2021. He survived for five months before dying in March 2022.

Megan Imirowicz was upset with her father because he was drunk and unable to drive her to a hair appointment before an 18th birthday party, according to prosecutors.
“The prosecution has tried to make me look like a monster but that's not me and never was,” Imirowicz told the judge, saying her father was her “hero” and “best friend.”

“One of the biggest things overlooked in this case is that me and my siblings lost my dad, too. ... I am the best parts of him.

Oakland County woman out of jail after light sentence for killing dad by throwing chemical

A young Michigan woman convicted of killing her father by burning him with a chemical drain cleaner has been sentenced to a year in jail.

www.clickondetroit.com

There's a video interview of MI where she explains how JC helped her in jail and why she was her best friend but it's not a WS postable link.

​

 

[GRT]

Jennifer Crumbley, 45, told jurors that it was her husband’s job to keep track of the gun. She also said she saw no signs of mental distress in her son.

“We would talk. We did a lot of things together,” she testified. “I trusted him, and I felt I had an open door. He could come to me about anything.”

The jury of six men and six women includes some gun owners or people who grew up with guns in their home.

In a journal found by police, Ethan Crumbley wrote that his parents wouldn’t listen to his pleas for help.

“I have zero help for my mental problems and it’s causing me to shoot up the … school,” he wrote.

That is heartbreaking, but I'm reminded of my own daughter and her diary. I think she was 15 when I bought the diary for her, and I told her it could be her special place to write down her thoughts. She left it everywhere, on the sofa, on the coffee table--literally everywhere. When I found it, I would always close it and take it to her bedroom.

It wasn't until she was in her early 20s that she told me she left it out because she wanted me to read it. She'd written dozens of times how, if her parents loved her, they'd buy her a wolf.

But, I respected her privacy and she never got the wolf she wanted.

I know some parents read their children's diaries and journals, but I have a feeling more parents respect their privacy.

 

[Boodles]

---snipped for focus---

It's not illegal for a teen to possess a firearm in MI.

MCL - Section 750.234f - Michigan Legislature

www.legislature.mi.gov

I believe it’s illegal EXCEPT for the things in the Code you quoted.

 

[GRT]

just a weird little snippet in absence of any news on verdict

JC's 'best friend' in jail, 19 year old Megan Imirowicz ( while both awaited their trials)

A young woman convicted of killing her father by burning him with a chemical drain cleaner was given a light sentence and released after more than a year in a suburban Detroit jail.
Imirowicz was arrested after throwing lye, a chemical drain cleaner, on Konrad Imirowicz, 64, while he was sleeping in 2021. He survived for five months before dying in March 2022.

Megan Imirowicz was upset with her father because he was drunk and unable to drive her to a hair appointment before an 18th birthday party, according to prosecutors.
“The prosecution has tried to make me look like a monster but that's not me and never was,” Imirowicz told the judge, saying her father was her “hero” and “best friend.”

“One of the biggest things overlooked in this case is that me and my siblings lost my dad, too. ... I am the best parts of him.

Oakland County woman out of jail after light sentence for killing dad by throwing chemical

A young Michigan woman convicted of killing her father by burning him with a chemical drain cleaner has been sentenced to a year in jail.

www.clickondetroit.com

There's a video interview of MI where she explains how JC helped her in jail and why she was her best friend but it's not a WS postable link.

​

That's an odd one.

It sounds like they may have met in jail--when JC was visiting EC? Another disturbed young person. Another killer.

 

[Boodles]

just a weird little snippet in absence of any news on verdict

JC's 'best friend' in jail, 19 year old Megan Imirowicz ( while both awaited their trials)

A young woman convicted of killing her father by burning him with a chemical drain cleaner was given a light sentence and released after more than a year in a suburban Detroit jail.
Imirowicz was arrested after throwing lye, a chemical drain cleaner, on Konrad Imirowicz, 64, while he was sleeping in 2021. He survived for five months before dying in March 2022.

Megan Imirowicz was upset with her father because he was drunk and unable to drive her to a hair appointment before an 18th birthday party, according to prosecutors.
“The prosecution has tried to make me look like a monster but that's not me and never was,” Imirowicz told the judge, saying her father was her “hero” and “best friend.”

“One of the biggest things overlooked in this case is that me and my siblings lost my dad, too. ... I am the best parts of him.

Oakland County woman out of jail after light sentence for killing dad by throwing chemical

A young Michigan woman convicted of killing her father by burning him with a chemical drain cleaner has been sentenced to a year in jail.

www.clickondetroit.com

There's a video interview of MI where she explains how JC helped her in jail and why she was her best friend but it's not a WS postable link.

​

Good lord! Throwing lye on your dad! Kinda sounds monstrous to me!

 

[Izzylizzy]

Has anyone else read or heard at JC's trial that James never registered the 2 guns in his house and did have a few days left to register the semi-automatic hand gun he purchased on 11-26-21?
iirc: It was said that in Michigan you have 10 days to register your purchase.

 

[Weki]

Good morning trial watchers and justice seekers - I think the fact that they didn’t come out and say they were hung yesterday is a good sign. I wanna say when a jury is going to be hung it’s clear almost right away - within a few hours. JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

That's an odd one.

It sounds like they may have met in jail--when JC was visiting EC? Another disturbed young person. Another killer.

The two women were jailed together.
It was stated at the trial that JC has not seen either husband or son since her arrest.

 

[KMouse]

If Jennifer is found "not guilty," do you think they might charge James with something different or add an additional charge?

I think they will listen closely to the poll of the jury. James bought the gun and was also a crappy parent but what else. A lot of the disdain is directed towards the Mom and not the Dad so the prosecution has a harder hill to climb IMHO.