GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[Izzylizzy]

Prosecution doubles down on James Crumbley, adds Oxford High students to witness list​

Prosecution doubles down on James Crumbley, adds Oxford High students to witness list

After his wife was convicted of involuntary manslaughter, Ethan Crumbley's father, James, faces trial in March on identical charges.

news.yahoo.com

The prosecution appears to be upping the ante for its second case against the parents of the Oxford High School shooter, as it has added three students to its witness list to testify against James Crumbley, according to a new court filing.

The students include two teenagers who were shot and injured during the 2021 rampage, and later gave impact statements at the shooter's sentencing hearing in December, when Ethan Crumbley was ordered to serve life without parole.

No students testified at the mother's trial.

How cavalier of James.
Does James have the same judge as JC had?

'Why the defense says Oxford students shouldn't be allowed to testify'​

James Crumbley's lawyer has asked a judge to prohibit the student witnesses from testifying, arguing their testimony "would only serve to enflame the emotions of the jury."

Moreover, defense attorney Mariell Lehman argues in her filing, the father's case isn't about what happened inside the school that day, but about what he allegedly did or didn't do before the shooting happened. She stressed that James Crumbley does not contest that children died that day, and that "the events of Nov. 30, 2021, undeniably changed peoples' lives in ways most people could never imagine."




I listened to Kylie Ossenge and the mother of Aiden, who was shot in the leg testifying at EC's sentencing;
Kylie is an absolutely amazing young woman.

Students shot by Oxford shooter share emotional statements at sentencing hearing

Multiple students who were shot and injured by the Oxford High School shooter in 2021 shared statements on Friday at the shooter’s sentencing hearing.

www.clickondetroit.com

 

[cottonweaver]

<Snipped for focus>

Who knows. Maybe she'll write a book.

Not all jurors seek the spotlight. They do their civic duty and then they're done. I do understand how the media hound jury members in a high profile case, but many prefer their privacy. Who knows if others will give statements or interviews.

Phew!
Either way it will be Report - able won't it? I'll keep an eye out

 

[cottonweaver]

How cavalier of James.
Does James have the same judge as JC had?

'Why the defense says Oxford students shouldn't be allowed to testify'​

James Crumbley's lawyer has asked a judge to prohibit the student witnesses from testifying, arguing their testimony "would only serve to enflame the emotions of the jury."

Moreover, defense attorney Mariell Lehman argues in her filing, the father's case isn't about what happened inside the school that day, but about what he allegedly did or didn't do before the shooting happened. She stressed that James Crumbley does not contest that children died that day, and that "the events of Nov. 30, 2021, undeniably changed peoples' lives in ways most people could never imagine."




I listened to Kylie Ossenge and the mother of Aiden, who was shot in the leg testifying at EC's sentencing;
Kylie is an absolutely amazing young woman.

Students shot by Oxford shooter share emotional statements at sentencing hearing

Multiple students who were shot and injured by the Oxford High School shooter in 2021 shared statements on Friday at the shooter’s sentencing hearing.

www.clickondetroit.com

Yes it's the same judge. ( I wish it wasn't, but for different reasons which I already posted about during the trial. Hopefully conduct in courtroom is more respectful, next time.)

Even if the Prosecution doesn't get their way by including the student victims, all the school staff and LEOs who testified in Jennifer's trial - coupled with the short CCTV of EC on his deadly rampage - evoked some of the terrible trauma of EC's crime. For example, one of the LEOs struggled to contain emotion on the stand.

Any news on delays yet? I can't see how James's will start on March 5th. Will the Jennifer trial transcript have even been verified yet?

Also do you - or any WS-er recall which parent went with James and EC to the shooting range? It was the visit when they hired the 9mm before purchasing a 9mm for James. Was it James's Dad or Jennifer's Dad? ( I've forgotten the date, was wondering if the CCTV was still collectable at the point of EC's arrest and whether there's more chance of a parent testifying for their son James this time around. I mean, we'd all want to stand up and be counted for our own kids, right? )

----
BTW
That link about sanctions hearing for Shannon Smith is interesting considering that Jennifer stuck with Smith for the whole two years pre-trial and paid good money for her representation

 

[Cool Cats]

Yes it's the same judge. ( I wish it wasn't, but for different reasons which I already posted about during the trial. Hopefully conduct in courtroom is more respectful, next time.)

Even if the Prosecution doesn't get their way by including the student victims, all the school staff and LEOs who testified in Jennifer's trial - coupled with the short CCTV of EC on his deadly rampage - evoked some of the terrible trauma of EC's crime.

Any news on delays yet? I can't see how James's will start on March 5th. Will the Jennifer trial transcript have even been verified yet?

----
BTW
That link about sanctions hearing for Shannon Smith is interesting considering that Jennifer stuck with Smith for the whole two years pre-trial

Sanctions?

 

[cottonweaver]

Sanctions?

The new report link is below. (This link takes you to the earlier reporting too. Embedded links. Also, helps me understand why there was no love lost between both sides. Bad relations Def & Pros apparent in court room)

Crumbley attorney may face sanctions over motion on Oxford shooter's request for treatment

Oakland Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews has set a May hearing date for Shannon Smith, Jennifer Crumbley's attorney, to determine if she should face sanctions.

eu.detroitnews.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

Yes it's the same judge. ( I wish it wasn't, but for different reasons which I already posted about during the trial. Hopefully conduct in courtroom is more respectful, next time.)

Even if the Prosecution doesn't get their way by including the student victims, all the school staff and LEOs who testified in Jennifer's trial - coupled with the short CCTV of EC on his deadly rampage - evoked some of the terrible trauma of EC's crime. For example, one of the LEOs struggled to contain emotion on the stand.

Any news on delays yet? I can't see how James's will start on March 5th. Will the Jennifer trial transcript have even been verified yet?

Also do you - or any WS-er recall which parent went with James and EC to the shooting range? It was the visit when they hired the 9mm before purchasing a 9mm for James. Was it James's Dad or Jennifer's Dad? ( I've forgotten the date, was wondering if the CCTV was still collectable at the point of EC's arrest and whether there's more chance of a parent testifying for their son James this time around. I mean, we'd all want to stand up and be counted for our own kids, right? )

----
BTW
That link about sanctions hearing for Shannon Smith is interesting considering that Jennifer stuck with Smith for the whole two years pre-trial and paid good money for her representation

"Also do you - or any WS-er recall which parent went with James and EC to the shooting range? It was the visit when they hired the 9mm before purchasing a 9mm for James. Was it James's Dad or Jennifer's Dad? ( I've forgotten the date, was wondering if the CCTV was still collectable at the point of EC's arrest and whether there's more chance of a parent testifying for their son James this time around. I mean, we'd all want to stand up and be counted for our own kids, right? )"

I hadn't heard about the grandfather and 9mm handgun rental.

JC was in communication with her dad while jailed and James's parents were divorced,his mom died while in Florida in April 2021 and he has family there.
Are JC's parents, who didn't testify at her trial. teachers in Michigan?
I know she grew up not far from Oxford.

 

[Sundog]

Curious why you wish for her sentencing to be so lenient? I’ve seen through out the trial, you have made the statements and I’m curious of the reasoning. Do you feel it was unnecessary to charge her for these crimes?

Yes.

 

[GRT]

Jennifer attributes the fall to Ethan not eating that day. How often did that happen? Why didn't he eat? Did Ethan's parents not provide their son with nourishing foods? Not eating is a symptom of depression, and if Ethan was in the habit of not eating healthfully on a regular basis, that in itself should have been an indication that something was not right with their son. JMO

I would hazard a guess that JC thought EC was melodramatic and that he may have staged the fall for attention. That's what I thought about EC's stories of demons being in the house throwing things and all the other little things he did.

I've known parents who didn't believe much of anything that came out of their children's mouths--for good reason.

I've also known kids whose parents didn't believe them and it seemed unfair.

But, that's just my guess, we really know so little of what their lives and relationships were like.

I don't have any sympathy for JC -- but I think the jury made the wrong call.

I have even less sympathy for EC and I don't think anything his parents would have done would change him from the monster he is. I think he did the whole thing for attention and I don't think he has the ability to feel compassion for anyone other than himself.

 

[Walela]

Prosecution doubles down on James Crumbley, adds Oxford High students to witness list​

Prosecution doubles down on James Crumbley, adds Oxford High students to witness list

After his wife was convicted of involuntary manslaughter, Ethan Crumbley's father, James, faces trial in March on identical charges.

news.yahoo.com

The prosecution appears to be upping the ante for its second case against the parents of the Oxford High School shooter, as it has added three students to its witness list to testify against James Crumbley, according to a new court filing.

The students include two teenagers who were shot and injured during the 2021 rampage, and later gave impact statements at the shooter's sentencing hearing in December, when Ethan Crumbley was ordered to serve life without parole.

No students testified at the mother's trial.

I am wondering what the prosecution is trying to do. These students being added after JC's trial is suspect. There was a guilty verdict without these student witnesses. Does the prosecution now feel that they need to hammer down on the emotional aspect to make sure James doesn't get less because his wife has been convicted? I'm guessing that the prosecution has talked with the jurors by now and has a good understanding where each of them stood regarding the action/lack of action issues with the mother so I'm curious to know if they don't believe they have the same level to convict the father.
moo

 

[Weki]

The new report link is below. (This link takes you to the earlier reporting too. Embedded links. Also, helps me understand why there was no love lost between both sides. Bad relations Def & Pros apparent in court room)

Crumbley attorney may face sanctions over motion on Oxford shooter's request for treatment

Oakland Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews has set a May hearing date for Shannon Smith, Jennifer Crumbley's attorney, to determine if she should face sanctions.

eu.detroitnews.com

I 100% believe Smith did exactly what the prosecutor is accusing her of! That’s her MO. It was evident during the trial. She plays dirty. I have no doubt there’s tons of tension between her and the state. But IMO Matthews won’t sanction Smith. I too wish a different judge was handling James Crumbley’s trial. I’m not fond of this judge. She’s too soft spoken and indecisive when objections are made. Just rule! The Traconis judge is making a mess of that trial with his meanderings after each objection. At least she’s not that bad. JMO

 

[Weki]

I would hazard a guess that JC thought EC was melodramatic and that he may have staged the fall for attention. That's what I thought about EC's stories of demons being in the house throwing things and all the other little things he did.

I've known parents who didn't believe much of anything that came out of their children's mouths--for good reason.

I've also known kids whose parents didn't believe them and it seemed unfair.

But, that's just my guess, we really know so little of what their lives and relationships were like.

I don't have any sympathy for JC -- but I think the jury made the wrong call.

I have even less sympathy for EC and I don't think anything his parents would have done would change him from the monster he is. I think he did the whole thing for attention and I don't think he has the ability to feel compassion for anyone other than himself.

Yeah I’m also of the opinion that EC is a sociopath and it’s not his parents neglect that led him to do what he did. Plenty of children are neglected, abused by their parents and don’t reach this level of violence so quickly. He was only 15 at the time for goodness sake. I would expect their abandonment to cause him to act out to get attention by getting in trouble at school, shoplifting etc. This was a methodical, calm assassination of his fellow students. I see the jury’s perspective though - JC facilitated the school shooting due to her inattentiveness. That gun should’ve been locked up tight! JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I am wondering what the prosecution is trying to do. These students being added after JC's trial is suspect. There was a guilty verdict without these student witnesses. Does the prosecution now feel that they need to hammer down on the emotional aspect to make sure James doesn't get less because his wife has been convicted? I'm guessing that the prosecution has talked with the jurors by now and has a good understanding where each of them stood regarding the action/lack of action issues with the mother so I'm curious to know if they don't believe they have the same level to convict the father.
moo

I think they are worried about getting a conviction on him. His jury will already know that someone is already going to be sent to prison for the crime so the community is happy there. So the jury will need a high standard to also convict yet a second person.

The 2 biggest pieces of evidence according to the jury forewoman were the notebook and Jennifer being the last known adult with custody of the gun.

The notebook will come into Jame's trial along with video footage of James purchasing the gun but the part left out will be that he was the last person who had custody of the gun.

Another significant part of the evidence that will be left out, I believe, will be all those weird texts Ethan sent Jennifer about hallucinations in the house and wanting her to come home and to text him back and she ignores him.

Bottom line, without any damning text messages from James, without his being distracted by affairs and horses, with no real evidence except Ethan's notebook --- all they really have on James is the gun purchase and that is mitigated a bit by Jennifer being the last known adult with it.

2 Cents

 

[ChatteringBirds]

all they really have on James is the gun purchase and that is mitigated a bit by Jennifer being the last known adult with it.

JMO: They have plenty to show James is just as responsible for the entire situation. He was parent #2 for Ethan's entire childhood, would have also known about his difficulties (academic, social, emotional), still literally bought him a gun, attended the same school meeting/saw the same drawing/also chose to walk out of it without taking any action, didn't change the code on the safe from its default so knew Ethan could access the guns, etc. etc.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I think they are worried about getting a conviction on him. His jury will already know that someone is already going to be sent to prison for the crime so the community is happy there. So the jury will need a high standard to also convict yet a second person.

The 2 biggest pieces of evidence according to the jury forewoman were the notebook and Jennifer being the last known adult with custody of the gun.

The notebook will come into Jame's trial along with video footage of James purchasing the gun but the part left out will be that he was the last person who had custody of the gun.

Another significant part of the evidence that will be left out, I believe, will be all those weird texts Ethan sent Jennifer about hallucinations in the house and wanting her to come home and to text him back and she ignores him.

Bottom line, without any damning text messages from James, without his being distracted by affairs and horses, with no real evidence except Ethan's notebook --- all they really have on James is the gun purchase and that is mitigated a bit by Jennifer being the last known adult with it.

2 Cents

When questioning the Acme Shooting Goods saleswoman who sold James the handgun Marc Keast showed the evidence that it was a "straw purchase" and then both parents gifted the gun to their son for Christmas.

As I recall James has not been charged with the straw purchase so it will be interesting to see how the state addresses this fact during his trial and if Keast enters the same straw purchase evidence that he did at JC's trial.
Legally James was the owner of an illegally purchased firearm and the the felony charge for that is a stiff one.



"Current law prohibits and imposes penalties—a fine, a prison term of up to 10 years, or both—for making false statements in connection with the acquisition of a firearm from a federally licensed dealer."

STOP Straw Purchases Act 117th Congress (2021-2022)​

Congress.gov
https://www.congress.gov › bill › house-bil

 

[Weki]

Just some stray thoughts - a couple TV commentators were saying that Smith was arguing for jury nullification and I dismissed those people as being pro-prosecution. But now that I’ve stepped back and thought about it - she so was! The argument that this sets a dangerous precedent against all parents IS jury nullification. It’s not allowed - I don’t know why McDonald wasn’t all over Smith for that. I actually bought into the jury nullification argument. I even argued in here that the jury can consider the precedent setting nature of this case. JMO

 

[Sundog]

Just some stray thoughts - a couple TV commentators were saying that Smith was arguing for jury nullification and I dismissed those people as being pro-prosecution. But now that I’ve stepped back and thought about it - she so was! The argument that this sets a dangerous precedent against all parents IS jury nullification. It’s not allowed - I don’t know why McDonald wasn’t all over Smith for that. I actually bought into the jury nullification argument. I even argued in here that the jury can consider the precedent setting nature of this case. JMO

Isn't jury nullification an option for all juries, even though it would be extremely rare to invoke?

Are you saying that "it's not allowed" for a defense attorney to suggest this option in front of a jury? Just trying to follow your train of thought here.

 

[Bodhi]

Isn't jury nullification an option for all juries, even though it would be extremely rare to invoke?

Are you saying that "it's not allowed" for a defense attorney to suggest this option in front of a jury? Just trying to follow your train of thought here.

An attorney can't encourage the jury to ignore the law.

 

[Weki]

Isn't jury nullification an option for all juries, even though it would be extremely rare to invoke?

Are you saying that "it's not allowed" for a defense attorney to suggest this option in front of a jury? Just trying to follow your train of thought here.

What @Bodhi said. She’s not allowed to argue that the jury can ignore the law. The precedent setting nature of the case is irrelevant and improper for the jury to consider just like sympathy for the victims. Of course she didn’t flat out say “ignore the law” but that’s what she’s doing with that argument. JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

"The Legality of Jury Nullification. According to the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Sparf v. U.S., written by Justice Harlan, juries have no right to ignore the law when rendering the jury's verdict. However, nullification still occurs in some instances because of the secrecy of jury deliberations."Oct 16, 2023

Jury Nullification in Theory and Application​

Jury nullification occurs when jurors believe in the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt but exercise the jury's power to acquit. They might feel that the defendant doesn't deserve to be punished under unjust laws.

Under this theory, the average citizen chosen for a jury can override the statutes passed by the legislature.

Sometimes, nullification is a tool that juries can use to set aside a law they believe is immoral or wrongly applied to a particular case. For example, in the 1800s, Congress passed stringent fugitive slave laws that compelled citizens of all states to assist law enforcement with apprehending suspected runaway slaves.

Known as the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, the law included large fines for anyone who aided an enslaved person in an escape, even by simply giving the person food or shelter. Abolitionists used the jury system to voice their protest by refusing to convict in these cases, thereby "nullifying" the law on moral grounds. The law still existed on the books but was difficult to enforce.

In other examples, juries refused to enforce alcohol prohibition laws and drug laws that they disagreed with, even if they violated the letter of the law. Jurors have also refused to convict a defendant who appeared sympathetic or created an emotional conflict despite the clear evidence of guilt.

In other contexts, a jury might refuse to convict out of concern for the consequences of a conviction or an unwillingness to see a minimum sentence imposed. In these examples, the jurors violate their oaths and abdicate their responsibilities.

Critics argue that the jury is a weakness in the criminal justice system. Others argue that the human element shows the system is working as intended — that it is more likely to acquit the guilty than to convict the innocent.

'The Legality of Jury Nullification'​

Jury Nullification - FindLaw
https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-procedure/jury-nullification.html#:~:text=The Legality of Jury Nullification,the secrecy of jury deliberations.
FindLaw
https://www.findlaw.com › ... › Criminal Procedur

 

[LMDlong]

JMO: They have plenty to show James is just as responsible for the entire situation. He was parent #2 for Ethan's entire childhood, would have also known about his difficulties (academic, social, emotional), still literally bought him a gun, attended the same school meeting/saw the same drawing/also chose to walk out of it without taking any action, didn't change the code on the safe from its default so knew Ethan could access the guns, etc. etc.

He’s as guilty as JC is.