MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #5

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If you read it in context, it is not talking just about the immediate moments after finding out. There are references to adherence to normal day-to-day life. That wouldn't be in reference to the 1-5 minutes after hearing the news.

Surely they are not just talking about the first 1-5 minutes. I think more like hours perhaps days, the time that the survivor is in an immediate crisis. I have looked at several sources, but I have not find anywhere that anger would be an abnormal reaction to losing your child to murder. If there is any evidence that would support the thesis that anger would be abnormal, I would like to see it. So far the website that I cited seems to be the most appropiate reference about the immediate reaction of a person to the news that a loved one has been murdered.
 
Here is another reference:

http://www.novabucks.org/otherinformation/homicide/
When homicide survivors first learn about the murder, they may experience shock and disbelief, numbness, changes in appetite or sleeping patterns, difficulty concentrating, confusion, anger, fear and anxiety. One survivor described her initial reactions after hearing of the murder of a family member in this way:”I felt a scream coming out and I thought, No!’ I closed my mouth. My legs turned rubbery, and I started falling, and I still wanted to scream, but I couldn’t scream.”
 
I'm sorry B_S, but formatting, cutting and pasting, does not replace good reasoning. I have to say, I fail to see clear reasoning behind your points that would be supported by the very source you present, with all due respect. Your points and reasoning sound like defensive parrying, rationalizing and not much more. Not the stuff that would sway a jury certainly, it seems to me. Why are you so intent on construing what doesn't seem reasonable to rationalize in defense of JT's lack of cooperation with LE about where he may have been around the time Julia was murdered with each and every post? Besides, it isn't what's thought of JT and KT here on these threads that matters, ultimately. It would be better if JT would just cooperate fully with LE instead of hiding in the shower while they're knocking at his door or taking off in huff for his Do Jo and getting booked in a Ninja outfit.

Come to think of it, what do you think all the various styles he presents himself in means? Barefoot karate master sitting at home in one interview which seemed odd for a TV appearance to say the least, sweatshirt and jeans in another, then the ninja look for his arrest, the candy red cowboy shirt in court, then blazer and khaki's the next time. He's a hunter too, so he pobably has hunting outfits too. Doesn't seem to know who to be is the impression one gets. Do you think he plays dress up to pysche himself up for occasions, play a role, like a kid or looks to somebody to tell him what to wear? Could he be a pawn or could he be just a posturing pervert, I wonder? Which reminds me of the way he acted according to the information that came out during his child *advertiser censored* trial about what he was like that first night with LE, emphasizing how he worked in some boat patrol and of being sick of pulling dead bodies out of the water or something. He must have an outfit from the patrol boat too, I suppose.
 
ETA: Quote from black_squirrel: Surely they are not just talking about the first 1-5 minutes.

BBM:
The articles are not, but our discussion here right now is. That is where we differ. Immediate reaction surrounding the snowflakes, hitting refrig, etc. was not the norm.


Surely they are not just talking about the first 1-5 minutes. I think more like hours perhaps days, the time that the survivor is in an immediate crisis. I have looked at several sources, but I have not find anywhere that anger would be an abnormal reaction to losing your child to murder. If there is any evidence that would support the thesis that anger would be abnormal, I would like to see it. So far the website that I cited seems to be the most appropiate reference about the immediate reaction of a person to the news that a loved one has been
murdered.

BBM
This is where I think we don't see this the same way. Were they actually told she had been MURDERED at this time? The immediate reaction to learning she had DIED would more likely have been disbelief/shock, not anger....?

ETA: This is a better explanation of what I believe, and why I disagree about the anger being appropriate/normal at this particular time. Had her anger been directed toward the person who did this, then I would understand. Instead, it was directed toward Julia's attempt to make the holidays festive. Did she even know it was Julia who had put the snowflakes up?

Factors Affecting the Nature of a Sudden Loss
1. Natural vs. human-caused disasters
Natural losses are illnesses and natural disasters—heart attack, stroke, earthquake or hurricane. With natural losses the resulting anger is directed towards the deceased or God. Human-caused losses include homicide, bombings, or acts of war and may be due to individual hostile actions. In human-caused disasters the survivor’s anger can be focused on the responsible person(s).

http://www.journeyofhearts.org/grief/accident2.html

(underlined by me)
 
I have been thinking about the payback killing theory. You are close on this, LookingGlass though I'm not so sure about all parts of it and definitely would remove at least one motive. Could JT had an obsession with Julia? I don't think JT ever had control of or over Julia like perhaps he did with the others. The timing of so many events that occurred around the time of her death and since then are odd.

Lansing has 13 cold cases from 2010 t0 2013 that I know of, and I always wondered have we overlooked other areas. If JT is responsible for Chelsea's murder as well, did he stop killing because of what they knew died and the secret is safe? Or has he killed others as well? For me, that answer pulls to being yes each time I read an article with JT talking about man who interviewed with KT for a job. (I forget his full name). Now another murder has happened so when looking at murders over a time span is JT a serial killer?

Two other questions is why did LE goes to Ohio and more importantly what was the overseas connected they were looking into? For myself, two names comes to mind when looking overseas plus Julia was planning on going to Rome in July 2013. What was the connection to Ohio? Family?

In talking about this article, we see the following:
  • One of the first family members on the scene was JT.
  • He claims LE isn’t looking hard enough.
  • “We don’t talk to them. We don’t like the way they are handling it.”
  • Detectives and family members feel JT knows more than he is letting on.
  • JT has refused to cooperate or tell LE his whereabouts near the time of the murder.
But then this gem stands out....
  • Of the killer, JT tells the reporter, “Inside them somewhere, they have to have some feeling of remorse. Sooner or later it is gonna get to them, it’s gonna eat them enough that they are not gonna be able to handle it.”
We all know a man is involved and LE only has stated one POI but from JT's lips the single killer turns into they and them....so who are these killers?
 
There definitely is a family connection to Ohio. They seem to have "family rivalries" between Michigan and Ohio during major sporting events (per photos posted on social media pages, if I recall correctly)

As for the overseas connection, I have no idea what that may be about. Your thought, ModMaiden, is as good as any.
 
BBM
This is where I think we don't see this the same way. Were they actually told she had been MURDERED at this time? The immediate reaction to learning she had DIED would more likely have been disbelief/shock, not anger....?

ETA: This is a better explanation of what I believe, and why I disagree about the anger being appropriate/normal at this particular time. Had her anger been directed toward the person who did this, then I would understand. Instead, it was directed toward Julia's attempt to make the holidays festive. Did she even know it was Julia who had put the snowflakes up?

I got your back, Spellz. :blowkiss:

They did not know she was murdered. They were told she was deceased by the officer who led them back to the living room. Source

"He said you can't be in here and led us out to living room," Kim said. "I said where is my daughter. Jen was yelling and I said I want to see my daughter. They said, 'Ma'am you can't go back in there' and I don’t know why it didn’t hit me sooner. I looked at him and he said, 'Ma'am, your daughter is deceased.' "
Valid question, Spellz and I wonder did KT hurt her hand when she punched the refrigerator? :slapfight:
 
I'm sorry B_S, but formatting, cutting and pasting, does not replace good reasoning. I have to say, I fail to see clear reasoning behind your points that would be supported by the very source you present, with all due respect. Your points and reasoning sound like defensive parrying, rationalizing and not much more. Not the stuff that would sway a jury certainly, it seems to me. Why are you so intent on construing what doesn't seem reasonable to rationalize in defense of JT's lack of cooperation with LE about where he may have been around the time Julia was murdered with each and every post? Besides, it isn't what's thought of JT and KT here on these threads that matters, ultimately. It would be better if JT would just cooperate fully with LE instead of hiding in the shower while they're knocking at his door or taking off in huff for his Do Jo and getting booked in a Ninja outfit.

Come to think of it, what do you think all the various styles he presents himself in means? Barefoot karate master sitting at home in one interview which seemed odd for a TV appearance to say the least, sweatshirt and jeans in another, then the ninja look for his arrest, the candy red cowboy shirt in court, then blazer and khaki's the next time. He's a hunter too, so he pobably has hunting outfits too. Doesn't seem to know who to be is the impression one gets. Do you think he plays dress up to pysche himself up for occasions, play a role, like a kid or looks to somebody to tell him what to wear? Could he be a pawn or could he be just a posturing pervert, I wonder? Which reminds me of the way he acted according to the information that came out during his child *advertiser censored* trial about what he was like that first night with LE, emphasizing how he worked in some boat patrol and of being sick of pulling dead bodies out of the water or something. He must have an outfit from the patrol boat too, I suppose.

Oh my goodness, I know exactly what you are referring to and it struck a chord with me as well. Why would he dress inappropriately like that for a TV interview about the murder of his stepdaughter? I'm glad to see my reaction to that is shared by another. I probably saved photo of it, just to shake my head at it now and then.

That second bold statement is truly one for the records. When you think about it, FindHG, JT does make interesting comments. Good insight on the personalities of JT. :wink:

Ha! Couldn't help myself....nomad.jpg Blacked out the minor child's face.
 
I would think that either response would be "normal" in that situation. You can't know how someone would react to that situation, everyone's different at times.
 
Surely they are not just talking about the first 1-5 minutes. I think more like hours perhaps days, the time that the survivor is in an immediate crisis. I have looked at several sources, but I have not find anywhere that anger would be an abnormal reaction to losing your child to murder. If there is any evidence that would support the thesis that anger would be abnormal, I would like to see it. So far the website that I cited seems to be the most appropiate reference about the immediate reaction of a person to the news that a loved one has been murdered.

I am not saying that anger is not normal. I'm saying that responding with immediate outward destructive rage is not normal. Haven't you learned or seen people learn terrible and shocking news in your life? I have. The first response is almost always as if the person has had the wind knocked out of them, then sometimes immediate manifestations of grief. I have never seen anyone fly into a rage and start vandalizing things, nor have I heard anecdotes (except this one), nor have I read anywhere that the type of reaction that JT had was common. So, if there is something out there -- beyond the one website that talks about a range of reactions over a range of timelines -- I'd be interested. It's certainly not my experience, andI don't think a misreading of that one source does anything to bolster the argument that JT's reaction was normal.
 
I am not saying that anger is not normal. I'm saying that responding with immediate outward destructive rage is not normal.
I think "destructive rage" is an exaggerating. The fridge is fine, I am sure. The paper decorations are not, but they would have been removed and discarded anyway. I mean, after Julia's death there wasn't going to be a jolly Christmas celebration.

The website I provided, http://www.pomc.com/survivors.html#2
is from the National Organization of Murdered Children, Inc. Unlike any of us (I presume), they deal with parents of murdered children on a regular basis. From what they write it certainly seems that an immediate anger reaction is normal (although the text doesn't specify what immediate is in this context). Anecdotal stories and experiences do not really give a good picture of what is normal and what is not. I have so far not seen any opinion of a bereavement expert that anger, or even rage would be an abnormal reaction. It is possible that there are better sources than the one I gave that would support the thesis that such anger and/or rage would be abnormal. But I have not seen anything like that. All the web sites I have looked at all say that in general anger is a normal reaction to bereavement.

Anger seems logical to me. Anger towards the perpetrator of course, or perhaps anger towards God, who has taken your child away. Anger because of the feeling of helplessness. Since KT was stopped when she tried to see her daughter, she must also have felt anger for not being allowed to see her daughter. We don't know if she knew at that time that her daughter was killed, but she must certainly have suspected something like that because she wasn't allowed to see her daughter. She must have felt angry because LE didn't tell her exactly what was going on. Wouldn't that drive you nuts? Just put yourself in her position.

This reminds me of a scene in the movie "Mystic River", where the Sean Penn character finds out that
his missing daughter was found death. He tries to run to her body but it takes like 10 policemen to stop him and he goes totally nuts. I guess at least in Hollywood an anger reaction is normal. (I am not going to post a link though because the images and language are a bit graphic.)
 
I got your back, Spellz. :blowkiss:

They did not know she was murdered. They were told she was deceased by the officer who led them back to the living room. Source


Valid question, Spellz and I wonder did KT hurt her hand when she punched the refrigerator? :slapfight:

This is an odd thing because my impression was KT and JN (twin) wanted into the room and LE said no. I thought KT was striking the frig. because she wasn't allowed into the room by LE and just found out about Julia being deceased. Since there are 2 other roommates I wasn't sure KT completely knew the snowman decoration was Julia's. However, with KT, Julia and JN(twin) being close, how could she not know? It seems KT went into a rage. There have been instances where people have been restrained by LE upon finding out such news because they wouldn't stay away from the scene.

I do wonder too, when JN (twin) went to EMU did she stay in an apartment on or near campus or did she commute from Monroe for classes? Was KT hoping Julia would've commuted instead, to be in Monroe and closer to the family more? There must be some family dynamics here that I'm not understanding. Julia's college life doesn't seem much different than other college students her age. And she went back home to Monroe on a regular basis, participating to family outings and holidays etc...



My take on KT is, because of intimate relationships mentioned earlier, she lives on the defensive on a daily basis. And, finding out about this tragic event put her over the edge. A hard question, did she blame Julia in a desperate instant for her death, being taken away from KT and family? Was that why she ripped the santa off the frig.? Was KT just in rage at the world for taking her precious child? Anger is a human saying no, I cannot take more sadness or disappointment into me, so I'm throwing it back out to the world.
 
This is where I think we don't see this the same way. Were they actually told she had been MURDERED at this time? The immediate reaction to learning she had DIED would more likely have been disbelief/shock, not anger....?

ETA: This is a better explanation of what I believe, and why I disagree about the anger being appropriate/normal at this particular time. Had her anger been directed toward the person who did this, then I would understand. Instead, it was directed toward Julia's attempt to make the holidays festive. Did she even know it was Julia who had put the snowflakes up?

Factors Affecting the Nature of a Sudden Loss
1. Natural vs. human-caused disasters
Natural losses are illnesses and natural disasters—heart attack, stroke, earthquake or hurricane. With natural losses the resulting anger is directed towards the deceased or God. Human-caused losses include homicide, bombings, or acts of war and may be due to individual hostile actions. In human-caused disasters the survivor’s anger can be focused on the responsible person(s).

http://www.journeyofhearts.org/grief/accident2.html

(underlined by me)

I wonder what exactly they told Julia's family when they arrived at Julia's apartment. They told her that she was deceased. But what reason did they give for not letting them go see Julia's body? If she had died of natural causes or an accident, there would have been to block the family from seeing her. From the way LE reacted, it likely was a homicide or possibly a suicide. From your citation, regardless of whether her death was a natural or human cause, feelings of anger are normal. I cannot say for sure what or who she was angry with at the time. Emotions are so intense that she may not even know herself. It seems to me that she was also angry with LE, because they did not let her see her daughter.


I don't know if KT knew that Julia made the decoration. I believe she posted it on instagram, but not everyone pays attention to that all the time.
 
My take on KT is, because of intimate relationships mentioned earlier, she lives on the defensive on a daily basis. And, finding out about this tragic event put her over the edge. A hard question, did she blame Julia in a desperate instant for her death, being taken away from KT and family? Was that why she ripped the santa off the frig.? Was KT just in rage at the world for taking her precious child? Anger is a human saying no, I cannot take more sadness or disappointment into me, so I'm throwing it back out to the world.

Which intimate relationships?
 
I'm sorry B_S, but formatting, cutting and pasting, does not replace good reasoning. I have to say, I fail to see clear reasoning behind your points that would be supported by the very source you present, with all due respect. Your points and reasoning sound like defensive parrying, rationalizing and not much more. Not the stuff that would sway a jury certainly, it seems to me.
All I am trying to do is separate facts from opinions. KT's reaction may seem to some people abnormal. It does not seem abnormal to me, but that is just my opinion based on my experience. In my opinion, the notion that an anger reaction to a child's death or murder is abnormal does not seem to be based on scientific fact. I could be wrong, but one would have to consult a bereavement expert to be sure. If I had to sway a jury, one could have such an expert testify if necessary.
Why are you so intent on construing what doesn't seem reasonable to rationalize in defense of JT's lack of cooperation with LE about where he may have been around the time Julia was murdered with each and every post? Besides, it isn't what's thought of JT and KT here on these threads that matters, ultimately. It would be better if JT would just cooperate fully with LE instead of hiding in the shower while they're knocking at his door or taking off in huff for his Do Jo and getting booked in a Ninja outfit.
I don't know JT or his family. All I am saying is that he has valid reasons for hiring a lawyer, and the lawyer may have valid reasons for preventing him to make any formal statement.
Come to think of it, what do you think all the various styles he presents himself in means? Barefoot karate master sitting at home in one interview which seemed odd for a TV appearance to say the least, sweatshirt and jeans in another, then the ninja look for his arrest, the candy red cowboy shirt in court, then blazer and khaki's the next time. He's a hunter too, so he pobably has hunting outfits too. Doesn't seem to know who to be is the impression one gets. Do you think he plays dress up to pysche himself up for occasions, play a role, like a kid or looks to somebody to tell him what to wear? Could he be a pawn or could he be just a posturing pervert, I wonder? Which reminds me of the way he acted according to the information that came out during his child *advertiser censored* trial about what he was like that first night with LE, emphasizing how he worked in some boat patrol and of being sick of pulling dead bodies out of the water or something. He must have an outfit from the patrol boat too, I suppose.
I am not sure what his dressing style has to do with anything. But I guess he could use fashion advice. Not from me though, because I have no fashion sense whatsoever. :)
I don't think that was a ninja suit that he was arrested in.
 
I must say this discussion has been interesting, and different views approached. Thanks to all who contributed. (I wish it wasn't because of someone we all care about, and would like to continue it in a different forum. I think I need to take a class --- seriously)
 
There seems to be a sink or swim attitude among the Turnquist. Julia sank, the rest are still swimming, even if down to a doggy paddle at this point, still afloat...

This is the season where the dynamics that rule that family are at a head, it seems to me. Holidays are when cash flow, power, & loyalty all come to a head for them it seems. Remember the visits home that ended in violent fights, at the time, IIRC; Julia's text about not trusting anyone; the shopping and lunch visit at her job with JN and their younger sister; which has been spun ad nauseam, in their attempts to influence impressions against LE in the press over the years, but essentially seemed like a fishing expedition of sorts that last day she was seen alive?

The year Julia was murdered was one of the first she was apart from the family dynamic, but she didn't get to swim too far, did she?

Who really cares what a terrible pervert enabling mother does anyway, B_S, time better spent focusing on the person/s who could be the murderer/s? Maybe KT should sit down with LE and tell them what she may know?

Whether KT punches the clock at her job or the fridge when she hears her daughter is dead, it seems obvious to me she knew why Julia was dead and who made her that way from that moment on. KT was upset because the death rained on her parade and caught her short. That is the impression I get. Her reaction was primal, like a gorilla goes around asserting dominance to let all the other monkeys know who rules, she went around beating appliances and decorations, to keep everybody in line, when faced with barriers and LE at the door. The tune never changed after that, did it? KT and JT did everything possible to distract, subvert, and distance the investigation. I doubt the best lawyer in the world or their defenders anywhere could save them from themselves, ultimately.


A little closer to

Justice for Julia (and Chelsea)
 
This is an odd thing because my impression was KT and JN (twin) wanted into the room and LE said no. I thought KT was striking the frig. because she wasn't allowed into the room by LE and just found out about Julia being deceased. Since there are 2 other roommates I wasn't sure KT completely knew the snowman decoration was Julia's. However, with KT, Julia and JN(twin) being close, how could she not know? It seems KT went into a rage. There have been instances where people have been restrained by LE upon finding out such news because they wouldn't stay away from the scene.

I do wonder too, when JN (twin) went to EMU did she stay in an apartment on or near campus or did she commute from Monroe for classes? Was KT hoping Julia would've commuted instead, to be in Monroe and closer to the family more? There must be some family dynamics here that I'm not understanding. Julia's college life doesn't seem much different than other college students her age. And she went back home to Monroe on a regular basis, participating to family outings and holidays etc...



My take on KT is, because of intimate relationships mentioned earlier, she lives on the defensive on a daily basis. And, finding out about this tragic event put her over the edge. A hard question, did she blame Julia in a desperate instant for her death, being taken away from KT and family? Was that why she ripped the santa off the frig.? Was KT just in rage at the world for taking her precious child? Anger is a human saying no, I cannot take more sadness or disappointment into me, so I'm throwing it back out to the world.

When JN (twin) went to EMU, she lived in a dorm while there. Her dorm was across the street from where Julia's apartment was located. There is a large parking lot between the two buildings plus a main road. I would say distance wise it was at least 300 yards as the crow flies!
 
I don't remember seeing this interview:
http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/57081847-story
It features Rose Niswender, and Trojan. The article says that Rose is Julia's mother, but she
is of course her grandmother. The interviewer seems confused. The tone of grandma Rose
is a bit different and she does not say anything about JT. She says something about police
making progress, and that they are looking at several people.

Trojan, is there anything new to report from police? Is there any progress?

Here is an interview with Jennifer:
http://www.monroenews.com/news/2015/dec/10/keeping-julias-spirit-alive/
 
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