MI - Three siblings in juvenile detention for contempt, Pontiac, 9 July 2015

[Margo/Mom]

It's not a matter of me wanting to see him separated from his children. He made that decision years ago when he decided to live in another country.

Why do I hate him? I guess because he is an absentee dad, and he is just an *******. If my dad had me sent to juvenile detention, I guarantee you that would have been the last time I would have talked to him ever. I would not have been as nice about it as these kids are. I would demand that the judge hold me in contempt, and keep me in juvenile detention until I was 18.

Point of clarification--Dad did not put the kids anywhere. They chose freely, following consultation with court-appointed counsel.

That said--I have a few issues with the things that the judge said. I believe she was trying to scare the kids into making the wiser choice, still, I don't think all of her tough talk was that helpful.

 

[Margo/Mom]

The mom went with him to that country, she made the decision to leave the country with the kids and without him. She filed for divorce here in the states while he was still there. So you are blaming dad for moms actions.

So again you are blaming the dad for what MOM did...

He didn't choose to be an absentee dad, she forced him into being one. For gosh sakes, she's the one who took the kids to Italy during what was supposed to be their summer visitation with him.

If he had done that, he would have been vilified, as it is he is being vilified for just wanting to see his kids...

Turn it around and see it this way...

He takes the kids to another country, files for divorce, does everything in his power to make sure mom never sees the kids ( including taking them to Italy during moms scheduled summer visitation), Kids don't want to see Mom, dad has filled their heads with all sorts of stuff about her...

Would you still defend him? If it was turned around that way?

You have to turn around the situation to see it, to see that it's not right what she has/is doing.

My kids hated flying 4 states away to visit their dad, but I still put them on a plane every summer. And he's the one who choose to move so far away! And before skype made sure they talked to him twice a week. The time was scheduled and they had no choice in it.

She has done the exact opposite of what a responsible should/must do.

And he's still being vilified for her actions.

Please look at this as if he had done what she did, and tell me, you would still be defending these actions?





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Agreed. I wonder if it might be helpful to interject that Mom may well be operating somewhat below the level of conscious choice on some of her actions/attitudes. There are many who want proof that Mom has intentionally acted to destroy any possibility of relationship between Dad and kids. I don't think most of us operate that clearly in many of our established patterns.

I do think that Mom is terrified of losing her kids. She may feel particularly vulnerable due to an accusation that she had an affair prior to the divorce (cannot vouch for the truth--only that it was in the divorce proceedings). She may be projecting, knowing how she was able to bolt and leave Israel with the kids. But, I do believe that she is operating out of her own pain and fear. She bears some responsibility for rejecting any healing supports. But I do see someone who is terrified of letting go of any detail of arrangements, and greatly fears the potential loss of her children. She cannot conceive of them having relationships with both parents. For her it is clearly (on an emotional level) and either/or teeter-totter. And she is so deeply enmeshed that her fears of loss cut to the core of her own identity.

 

[Margo/Mom]

Well, considering the judge's decision to send the kids to juvenile detention for two weeks to try and deprogram them there was an epic FAIL, now she is going to try and do it in five days. :facepalm: I think it's a safe bet that the kids will just be more pissed off at their father, then ever.

I don't know that there was ever any intent at "deprogramming" at CV. It was a consequence for defying the orders of the court. And the reality is that unruly youth from other income strata are routinely treated similarly. These are the so-called "bad" kids that these children were being lodged with. Some of the other children may also be from families who have demonstrated an inability to parent responsibly--again, a good fit for what is happening here. Why is nobody wondering why Mom never chose to advocate with her children to make a better choice?

 

[TorisMom003]

Mother and father lived here in the US when all three of the kids were born, from my understanding. Father gets an offer to work and live in Israel. Mother and children are happy with their lives here in the US and don't want to go. Father moves to Israel alone anyway, so he did abandon his children especially in their eyes. Mother began the divorce procedure during that time. Father convinced mother to give marriage another shot so she and the children move to Israel. Marriage still is a failure so mother moves back, with the children, to the US and follows through with the divorce. Father seldom sees the children while living in Israel, his choice since he chose to move away from them. The children are going to feel that their father abandoned them no matter what he or their mother say to them. Father was there, then he wasn't. Father gets remarried and has new child. Again, the children are going to feel abandoned and now replaced. Father is supposedly transferred from Israel to the US with his job. If this was possible now, why was it not possible before when his children were much younger and needed their father in their lives more? Was it possible but father puts his wants/needs/desires ahead of his marriage and children?

Court records show that the judge told father, with children in the courtroom, that HE was the one that decided when the children would leave juvie. Children also were told that mother could not visit them while in juvie. Father was the one that decided who was able to see them while in juvie, including himself. Father then leaves the US to go back to Israel. So we have the children in juvie, not visitation from mother, father allowed to visit but is unavailable to because he is in Israel. This is not a situation that is going to make the children want to be with their father. He has once again abandoned the children but this time has even taken their mother away from them as well. May not be fair to the father but as children this is what they are going to see. The children were not even allowed to be with/spend time with each other.

This forced 5 day hotel stay with father is going to be a failure IMO. That's if father can keep his rear end in the US for the entire 5 days. If father is unwilling to see things from the children's point of view, doesn't work on changing his own attitude about how he treats his children, and continues to blame mother instead of admitting some blame himself then his relationship with his children will never get any better. While children are not adults, they do still have the desire for their wants/needs/issues to be heard and understood. So far it seems like (more than likely even more so to the children) that those things simply don't matter to the adults making the decisions for and about them.

MOO

 

[MyBelle]

Now there is a bad analogy. Two of those three things they can do.

Not so. The oldest child is 15 and U.S. laws do not allow him to drink, drive or to move out of his home.

JMO

 

[Margo/Mom]

Mother and father lived here in the US when all three of the kids were born, from my understanding. Father gets an offer to work and live in Israel. Mother and children are happy with their lives here in the US and don't want to go. Father moves to Israel alone anyway, so he did abandon his children especially in their eyes. Mother began the divorce procedure during that time. Father convinced mother to give marriage another shot so she and the children move to Israel. Marriage still is a failure so mother moves back, with the children, to the US and follows through with the divorce. Father seldom sees the children while living in Israel, his choice since he chose to move away from them. The children are going to feel that their father abandoned them no matter what he or their mother say to them. Father was there, then he wasn't. Father gets remarried and has new child. Again, the children are going to feel abandoned and now replaced. Father is supposedly transferred from Israel to the US with his job. If this was possible now, why was it not possible before when his children were much younger and needed their father in their lives more? Was it possible but father puts his wants/needs/desires ahead of his marriage and children?

Court records show that the judge told father, with children in the courtroom, that HE was the one that decided when the children would leave juvie. Children also were told that mother could not visit them while in juvie. Father was the one that decided who was able to see them while in juvie, including himself. Father then leaves the US to go back to Israel. So we have the children in juvie, not visitation from mother, father allowed to visit but is unavailable to because he is in Israel. This is not a situation that is going to make the children want to be with their father. He has once again abandoned the children but this time has even taken their mother away from them as well. May not be fair to the father but as children this is what they are going to see. The children were not even allowed to be with/spend time with each other.

This forced 5 day hotel stay with father is going to be a failure IMO. That's if father can keep his rear end in the US for the entire 5 days. If father is unwilling to see things from the children's point of view, doesn't work on changing his own attitude about how he treats his children, and continues to blame mother instead of admitting some blame himself then his relationship with his children will never get any better. While children are not adults, they do still have the desire for their wants/needs/issues to be heard and understood. So far it seems like (more than likely even more so to the children) that those things simply don't matter to the adults making the decisions for and about them.

MOO

Well, you are certainly not alone in cheering on the failure of the next attempt at healing prior damage (which includes the inevitable trauma of divorce). Personally I have a really hard time in hoping that the best available efforts fail.

I have no doubt that on an emotional level the children have experienced abandonment--regardless of the facts of who chose what. However, recalling the ages of the children at the time of dad taking the job in Israel (the oldest I believe was about 8), I have serious problems with implying that they had an active role in deciding to stay in the US. Children of that age are not only not typically given such choices, but it is with good reason as they lack the appropriate context and emotional development to make sound decisions. There were multiple advantages to making the move to Israel, including the opportunity to have a connection with grandparents and extended family. And given time to adjust and support I have little doubt that they would had positive experiences living there. Instead they experienced a second or third abrupt change, result in a second loss of contact with their father. The fact that the father was not in control of these events does not necessarily mean that this was not experienced as abandonment. Feelings are not logical. And for such young children to work through the nuances of blaming their mother--the only parent they had contact with--for this loss would be an unrealistic expectation. The fact that the father fought hard to maintain custody is also beyond their grasp.

I would argue that as custodial parent the mother had a responsibility to ensure that the children had ongoing counseling support to work through these kinds of issues. It is my impression, however, that she has not only not been pro-active in this arena, but actively (or passively) fought any attempts to ensure that the children receive such counseling--resulting in the children being in a position of stand-off with multiple counselors, refusing to leave the waiting room.

The father moved his residence to the US quite some time ago. Frankly, the emphasis on the hotel, rather than the therapy--which in fact provides a structure and a space for the children to be heard and to process feelings as well as to examine feelings within a context--is missing the boat.

I don't expect miracles in five days--and would anticipate that the next 90 days, if the planned temporary placement with dad goes forward--are going to be incredibly difficult, particularly for Dad. I would anticipate that this will be a time of great testing on the part of the children--particularly the oldest, and the counseling support during this time will likely need to be even more intensive.

However, the pathologies I have witnessed from the Mom strike me as being so great that I truly feel that this is a much needed step. Not only because the father desires it and is willing to participate, but because the children need it.

 

[MyBelle]

Agreed. I wonder if it might be helpful to interject that Mom may well be operating somewhat below the level of conscious choice on some of her actions/attitudes. There are many who want proof that Mom has intentionally acted to destroy any possibility of relationship between Dad and kids. I don't think most of us operate that clearly in many of our established patterns.

I do think that Mom is terrified of losing her kids. She may feel particularly vulnerable due to an accusation that she had an affair prior to the divorce (cannot vouch for the truth--only that it was in the divorce proceedings). She may be projecting, knowing how she was able to bolt and leave Israel with the kids. But, I do believe that she is operating out of her own pain and fear. She bears some responsibility for rejecting any healing supports. But I do see someone who is terrified of letting go of any detail of arrangements, and greatly fears the potential loss of her children. She cannot conceive of them having relationships with both parents. For her it is clearly (on an emotional level) and either/or teeter-totter. And she is so deeply enmeshed that her fears of loss cut to the core of her own identity.

I think the mother is an abuser and has been at it the entire lives of her children. She lost control of her husband long ago. Her only fear now is losing control of her children. If the roles were reversed and it was the father doing all these things to manipulate the children and antagonize the court, he'd have lost custody a long time ago.

JMO

 

[giagreen]

It's not a matter of me wanting to see him separated from his children. He made that decision years ago when he decided to live in another country.

Why do I hate him? I guess because he is an absentee dad, and he is just an *******. If my dad had me sent to juvenile detention, I guarantee you that would have been the last time I would have talked to him ever. I would not have been as nice about it as these kids are. I would demand that the judge hold me in contempt, and keep me in juvenile detention until I was 18.

But you weren't sent to a juvenile detention center and you have no idea what it feels like. And I highly doubt you'd demand to stay till you were 18. You also have no idea how it feels to be sent to juvey by your own dad.
I could get into how I know how it feels but there is way more to these types of stories then anyone will ever understand unless if you've lived it.
Who are you to say this father doesn't love his children? Fathers that don't love their children disappear. Dont call. And don't go to extreams to try and have a relationship with their children....they just leave and never look back.
My father has more then once thrown me in juvey back when I was 14, 15 over this same crap. And guess what he loves me and we have a great relationship now that I'm a grown woman and have realized things I didn't then. And you have no right to say he doesn't love me because he got me put in juvey.
I wouldnt go to his house when I was young because he had rules. Mom on the other hand let us run wild and do whatever we wanted. Of course I said he was mean and abusive and my mom backed that up. Is that really children's rights to live with out rules and not be held accountable? I'm sorry but those are his children he has every right to hold them accountable for their actions. I doubt this has been their first go around for the judge with that family and she has a better idea of what is really going on.
She told them to have lunch with him. That wasn't asking much and wouldn't been hard to do. Those kids went to juvey because they didn't respect authority and listen to the judge.

 

[Margo/Mom]

I think the mother is an abuser and has been at it the entire lives of her children. She lost control of her husband long ago. Her only fear now is losing control of her children. If the roles were reversed and it was the father doing all these things to manipulate the children and antagonize the court, he'd have lost custody a long time ago.

JMO

I just want to be very careful in using terms like abuse and batter--both of which have been thrown around in multiple discussions. While I agree that mother's behaviors are despicable and emotionally damaging, I don't know that anyone could make a charge of abuse against her stick, any more than they can regarding the father. Emotional abuse by its nature leaves scars that are far less perceptible than cuts and bruises.

I have a hard time hearing claims that this woman is a good parent. By the same token, I do believe that she loves her children. That love however has not prevented her from entangling them in a mess of her own that she is frankly terrified of examining. Consider for example her parade of attorneys. Not only is she unable to cede any control to knowledgeable professionals in her hire, but she would appear to be so terrified of adult relationships that she flees them regularly in terror. Is it any wonder that she has fought so hard against any kind of counseling or therapy?

I would imagine that a part of the consideration of the father's request for a change in custody will be an evaluation of her fitness as a parent (I would hope, anyway). Everyone in the family just had a psych eval--which I hope in her case provides some diagnostic insight. My prediction, however, is that she will file an objection to whoever conducted the eval, perhaps with yet another team of lawyers, revisit the park incident from 2011 (since her more recent charge of physical abuse by all accounts was completely discounted on investigation--although that probably won't stop her from dragging in the ER report one more time), and maybe drum up some more folks with signs to stand outside the courthouse. That's my prediction.

My hope, however, is that this latest team of lawyers convinces her that the return of the children simply doesn't look good unless she gets some therapy for herself and demonstrates a willingness and ability to carry through with something like supervised visitation responsibly.

 

[Margo/Mom]

But you weren't sent to a juvenile detention center and you have no idea what it feels like. And I highly doubt you'd demand to stay till you were 18. You also have no idea how it feels to be sent to juvey by your own dad.
I could get into how I know how it feels but there is way more to these types of stories then anyone will ever understand unless if you've lived it.
Who are you to say this father doesn't love his children? Fathers that don't love their children disappear. Dont call. And don't go to extreams to try and have a relationship with their children....they just leave and never look back.
My father has more then once thrown me in juvey back when I was 14, 15 over this same crap. And guess what he loves me and we have a great relationship now that I'm a grown woman and have realized things I didn't then. And you have no right to say he doesn't love me because he got me put in juvey.
I wouldnt go to his house when I was young because he had rules. Mom on the other hand let us run wild and do whatever we wanted. Of course I said he was mean and abusive and my mom backed that up. Is that really children's rights to live with out rules and not be held accountable? I'm sorry but those are his children he has every right to hold them accountable for their actions. I doubt this has been their first go around for the judge with that family and she has a better idea of what is really going on.
She told them to have lunch with him. That wasn't asking much and wouldn't been hard to do. Those kids went to juvey because they didn't respect authority and listen to the judge.

Thank you so much for the personal experience.

Many responsible parents allow their children to experience the consequences of their rebellious actions because it is the responsible thing to do--even if very difficult (for both parent and child).

I also gotta keep pointing out that this father, through his attorney and the GAL really moved mountains to move the location of detention from CV to a pretty nice camp. This could not have been easy to do, on short notice, mid summer and getting them in during the middle of a session. And we know it cost a bundle.

 

[MyBelle]

I just want to be very careful in using terms like abuse and batter--both of which have been thrown around in multiple discussions. While I agree that mother's behaviors are despicable and emotionally damaging, I don't know that anyone could make a charge of abuse against her stick, any more than they can regarding the father. Emotional abuse by its nature leaves scars that are far less perceptible than cuts and bruises.

I have a hard time hearing claims that this woman is a good parent. By the same token, I do believe that she loves her children. That love however has not prevented her from entangling them in a mess of her own that she is frankly terrified of examining. Consider for example her parade of attorneys. Not only is she unable to cede any control to knowledgeable professionals in her hire, but she would appear to be so terrified of adult relationships that she flees them regularly in terror. Is it any wonder that she has fought so hard against any kind of counseling or therapy?

I would imagine that a part of the consideration of the father's request for a change in custody will be an evaluation of her fitness as a parent (I would hope, anyway). Everyone in the family just had a psych eval--which I hope in her case provides some diagnostic insight. My prediction, however, is that she will file an objection to whoever conducted the eval, perhaps with yet another team of lawyers, revisit the park incident from 2011 (since her more recent charge of physical abuse by all accounts was completely discounted on investigation--although that probably won't stop her from dragging in the ER report one more time), and maybe drum up some more folks with signs to stand outside the courthouse. That's my prediction.

My hope, however, is that this latest team of lawyers convinces her that the return of the children simply doesn't look good unless she gets some therapy for herself and demonstrates a willingness and ability to carry through with something like supervised visitation responsibly.

What the mother has done to her children is considered emotional abuse. She's controlled their ability to see their father and that is considered parental alienation.

JMO

 

[NSS]

BBM

Not true.

A parent CAN NOT leave the US with a minor child with only a passport. I know this from direct experience. A parent needs an affidavit from the other parent, granting permission to the other parent to take the minor child out of the country.

Not true. Both myself and my ex have travelled alone with children. US to UK. I did it the last time in 2012.

 

[lisalei321]

Not true. Both myself and my ex have travelled alone with children. US to UK. I did it the last time in 2012.

Just called my BIL, he traveled to France with his daughter for her French club trip in 2014. He and the ex have been divorced for about 10 years, she was 16 at the time, he said that all the needed was passports, he never had to show anything else to take her out of the country...

Sent from my LGMS631 using Tapatalk

 

[MyBelle]

Just called my BIL, he traveled to France with his daughter for her French club trip in 2014. He and the ex have been divorced for about 10 years, she was 16 at the time, he said that all the needed was passports, he never had to show anything else to take her out of the country...

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The bitter irony in this case is that IF the situation had been reversed and the mother had taken the children and fled her husband in Michigan and she went to Israel without telling him, the FBI would have gotten involved because it would be an international parental kidnapping.

It happens: A parent kidnapping his or her own child and fleeing for parts unknown, often overseas.

It’s our job to help find these abducted kids. Our field offices across the country serve as the primary points of contact for those seeking our help. To request our assistance or learn more about our services, please contact a member of the Child Exploitation Task Force at your local FBI office.

How is a missing child defined? By law (specifically the 1982 Missing Children’s Act), it’s any person younger than 18 whose whereabouts are unknown to his or her legal custodian. Under the act, the circumstances surrounding the disappearance must indicate that the child was removed from the control of his or her legal custodian without the custodian’s consent, or the circumstances of the case must strongly indicate that the child is likely to have been abused or sexually exploited.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/cac/family-abductions

 

[LinasK]

Now there is a bad analogy. Two of those three things they can do.

Which two under the age of 18 are they allowed to do without parental permission???:thinking::waitasec:

 

[LinasK]

Just called my BIL, he traveled to France with his daughter for her French club trip in 2014. He and the ex have been divorced for about 10 years, she was 16 at the time, he said that all the needed was passports, he never had to show anything else to take her out of the country...

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Same here. DD who will be 15 at the time, is going on a school trip to Ireland. Neither of us can afford to chaperone. All that is needed is passports.

 

[LinasK]

Which two under the age of 18 are they allowed to do without parental permission???:thinking::waitasec:

Unless you're a runaway, you need to go before a judge to get legally emancipated, so you can't even do that without adult consent.
You need parental consent to get a learner's permit/driver's license, and you can't legally drink alcohol under age.

 

[NSS]

The bitter irony in this case is that IF the situation had been reversed and the mother had taken the children and fled her husband in Michigan and she went to Israel without telling him, the FBI would have gotten involved because it would be an international parental kidnapping.

It happens: A parent kidnapping his or her own child and fleeing for parts unknown, often overseas.

It’s our job to help find these abducted kids. Our field offices across the country serve as the primary points of contact for those seeking our help. To request our assistance or learn more about our services, please contact a member of the Child Exploitation Task Force at your local FBI office.

How is a missing child defined? By law (specifically the 1982 Missing Children’s Act), it’s any person younger than 18 whose whereabouts are unknown to his or her legal custodian. Under the act, the circumstances surrounding the disappearance must indicate that the child was removed from the control of his or her legal custodian without the custodian’s consent, or the circumstances of the case must strongly indicate that the child is likely to have been abused or sexually exploited.


https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/cac/family-abductions

Also not true.

The FBI do not have jurisdiction in other countries. The 'left behind parent' must file using the HAGUE CONVENTION ON THE CIVIL ASPECTS OF INTERNATIONAL CHILD ABDUCTION.
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.text&cid=24

The country receiving the request will locate the child and initiate proceedings. It is not a 'given' that the child will be returned as there are a few instances where a return to the requesting country will be denied. Including the childs wishes.


The US is one of only 2 countries that have not ratified the treaty on the 'rights of the child' and this is occasionally used as a defense against return. America helped draft the treaty, signed it, but failed to ratify it because the rights of parents were paramount. (The 2nd country who signed but haven't ratified it have no functioning government).

The US have no right to enter other countries to enforce their laws. They have to apply for extradition like everyone else.

 

[gitana1]

So who here think that this therapy (which is I understand it includes being held for five days in a hotel with their father) is actually going to work?
Do we expect them to emerge magically not alienated after five days?

I think it can work. Not magically unalienated but it will plant seeds that allow for healing and resistance of further alienating messages. I have seen that kids removed, even for a few days, from the alienating parent, can begin to see the other parent in another light, especially with help.

Sooo--would you argue that military personnel are all absentee parents when sent overseas?

The reality is that this father never walked out on his children. He accepted a position in Israel, where both parents have citizenship. It was his hope and desire that the whole family unit would move there together. Both parents have roots, and citizenship, in Israel. Both parents have family there. My understanding is that there may have been some contention between the parents regarding this decision. However, after a time, mom sold the family house, and cars and arranged to ship all of the family belongings to Israel. They cosigned an extended lease on a condo there. The children were enrolled in school. And then mom bolted with the kids. Now those are pretty much the facts as they appear in the original divorce proceedings and custody discussion--which took place in an international court due to the two country issue. The court ruled that due to the short time the children had lived in Israel, and despite the indications that this was clearly intended as permanent home for them, that their ties to the US had greater weight. There was no termination of parental rights, however, and the parents were awarded joint legal custody. The father pays child support, has a right to regular visitation and a role in major decision-making.

Now--this does not mean that the children may not perceive his actions as abandonment. Recall that their ages at the time were something like 4, 5 and 9 (or so). Feelings do not always follow facts. Children may well feel that a parent did not fight hard enough to maintain a relationship, or to remain in a marriage. Meanwhile they are privy to the day-to-day impacts of the broken marriage on the parent with physical custody. I fully understand, from friends' divorces, that a parent in pain carries an incredibly heavy load to support children's respect for the absent parent, particularly when they are angry, hurt or unresolved. Consider the possibility that mom in this case did not want the marriage to end so much as she wanted it to continue but under her own conditions and in the US. I would suggest that this is a very common scenario.

However, now, after five years, and after review of the record of controlling behaviors on the part of the mom, and particularly the overt efforts to sabotage anything in the way of healing therapy for the children--coupled with the reality that the father has fought across two continents consistently during that time, including multiple different visitation arrangements (including supervised visitation, not to mention surrendering his passport when he visits), I think it is time to recognize that these kids are being actively harmed by the current situation. I don't feel a need to lay out blame, however, I would point out that despite mom's obvious capability of arranging a full and complete schedule of lessons (tennis, tae kwan do, guitar, violin) for these children in addition to school, she has never of her own volition made counseling for the children a priority. In addition, they seem to be locked together as a block--they all take guitar lessons together, they all take violin together--one set of lessons even includes mom. Given age and gender differences, not to mention the likelihood of individual differences in temperament, interests, development and the like, this looks more pathological than healthy--feeding into an inability of the children to see themselves as individuals separate from their mother and from one another. Mom seems to be very threatened by the notion of any kind of healing therapy for either the children, or herself. Because she is stuck she has placed an enormous emotional load on her children to see the parents as being on opposite sides of a battle in which they must choose one or the other. Again--not healthy. Personally I hope that she takes advantage of the time she has been offered under the current situation to get some personal support and help. Because her children need an emotionally healthy mother, as well as needing a connection to their father.

Great post. Sometimes people cannot "hear" logic because they are dealing with their own issues. At a certain point, I just give up trying to explain. (And ignore).

But you weren't sent to a juvenile detention center and you have no idea what it feels like. And I highly doubt you'd demand to stay till you were 18. You also have no idea how it feels to be sent to juvey by your own dad.
I could get into how I know how it feels but there is way more to these types of stories then anyone will ever understand unless if you've lived it.
Who are you to say this father doesn't love his children? Fathers that don't love their children disappear. Dont call. And don't go to extreams to try and have a relationship with their children....they just leave and never look back.
My father has more then once thrown me in juvey back when I was 14, 15 over this same crap. And guess what he loves me and we have a great relationship now that I'm a grown woman and have realized things I didn't then. And you have no right to say he doesn't love me because he got me put in juvey.
I wouldnt go to his house when I was young because he had rules. Mom on the other hand let us run wild and do whatever we wanted. Of course I said he was mean and abusive and my mom backed that up. Is that really children's rights to live with out rules and not be held accountable? I'm sorry but those are his children he has every right to hold them accountable for their actions. I doubt this has been their first go around for the judge with that family and she has a better idea of what is really going on.
She told them to have lunch with him. That wasn't asking much and wouldn't been hard to do. Those kids went to juvey because they didn't respect authority and listen to the judge.

Thank you for that wonderful post. You've been through it. Wow.

I just want to be very careful in using terms like abuse and batter--both of which have been thrown around in multiple discussions. While I agree that mother's behaviors are despicable and emotionally damaging, I don't know that anyone could make a charge of abuse against her stick, any more than they can regarding the father. Emotional abuse by its nature leaves scars that are far less perceptible than cuts and bruises.

I have a hard time hearing claims that this woman is a good parent. By the same token, I do believe that she loves her children. That love however has not prevented her from entangling them in a mess of her own that she is frankly terrified of examining. Consider for example her parade of attorneys. Not only is she unable to cede any control to knowledgeable professionals in her hire, but she would appear to be so terrified of adult relationships that she flees them regularly in terror. Is it any wonder that she has fought so hard against any kind of counseling or therapy?

I would imagine that a part of the consideration of the father's request for a change in custody will be an evaluation of her fitness as a parent (I would hope, anyway). Everyone in the family just had a psych eval--which I hope in her case provides some diagnostic insight. My prediction, however, is that she will file an objection to whoever conducted the eval, perhaps with yet another team of lawyers, revisit the park incident from 2011 (since her more recent charge of physical abuse by all accounts was completely discounted on investigation--although that probably won't stop her from dragging in the ER report one more time), and maybe drum up some more folks with signs to stand outside the courthouse. That's my prediction.

My hope, however, is that this latest team of lawyers convinces her that the return of the children simply doesn't look good unless she gets some therapy for herself and demonstrates a willingness and ability to carry through with something like supervised visitation responsibly.

Parental alienation is a devastating form of child abuse:

"Research with "adult children" of parental alienation syndrome (that is, adults who believe that when they were children one parent turned them against the other parent) confirms that being exposed to parental alienation represents a form of emotional abuse. Furthermore, these adults reported that when they succumbed to the pressure and rejected one parent to please the other, the experience was associated with several negative long-term effects including depression, drug abuse, divorce, low self-esteem, problems with trusting, and alienation from their own children when they became parents themselves. In this way the cycle of parental alienation was carried forward through the generations. Thus, parental alienation is a form of emotional abuse that damages the child's self esteem in the short run and is associated with life-long damage." https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...rental-alienation-is-emotional-abuse-children

"When these behaviors are deliberate, and result, or have the potential to result, in significant psychological harm to the child, mental health professionals refer to this as child psychological abuse." http://www.warshak.com/publications/what-is-parental-alienation.html#sthash.MIc3fn4f.dpuf

(Very insightful article, BTW. There is the constant refrain that the kids must actually have witnessed or been subject to some form of abuse by the alienated parent but this explains why the behaviors we see here and in other alienation cases belie abuse on the part of the alienated parent: "By contrast, physically abused children fear the abuser and act obsequious, respectful, and compliant so as to avoid angering the parent. Typically they do not openly defy or disrespect the abusive parent. Also, physically abused children often resist separation from the abusive parent and want to be reunited with that parent.").

Same here. DD who will be 15 at the time, is going on a school trip to Ireland. Neither of us can afford to chaperone. All that is needed is passports.

Right. Which is why all these minors are able to leave our country (or try to) and others to join ISIS.

Also not true.

The FBI do not have jurisdiction in other countries. The 'left behind parent' must file using the HAGUE CONVENTION ON THE CIVIL ASPECTS OF INTERNATIONAL CHILD ABDUCTION.
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.text&cid=24

The country receiving the request will locate the child and initiate proceedings. It is not a 'given' that the child will be returned as there are a few instances where a return to the requesting country will be denied. Including the childs wishes.


The US is one of only 2 countries that have not ratified the treaty on the 'rights of the child' and this is occasionally used as a defense against return. America helped draft the treaty, signed it, but failed to ratify it because the rights of parents were paramount. (The 2nd country who signed but haven't ratified it have no functioning government).

The US have no right to enter other countries to enforce their laws. They have to apply for extradition like everyone else.

The FBI absolutely gets involved in international parental kidnapping cases. That's a big function of the FBI. They don't control the court aspect but they do deal with the investigative, law enforcement process, by investigating here and partnering with entities in foreign countries or on the high seas: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/cac/family-abductions

 

[jjenny]

The supposed parental alienation syndrome isn't even considered an actual disorder.

"And she is skeptical of intensive therapy, noting that parental alienation syndrome is not listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders, considered the bible in the mental health community."

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...oakland-county-family-court-experts/31435087/