MI - Three siblings in juvenile detention for contempt, Pontiac, 9 July 2015

[JeannaT]

The thing is, these kids need to learn how to react to reasonable authority. When children this age, with at least average intelligence can't be convinced to behave respectfully in a court of law, someone outside the parents needs to take control and teach them this skill. I've been in juvenile court and watched kids who seem to be of average intelligence be declared "incorrigible" (meaning, in Texas, the parents can no longer be fined for the kid's outrageous behavior) because the kids couldn't shut their mouths. SHUT YOUR MOUTH. That's not a difficult concept. Look the judge in the eye, say yes ma'am or yes sir, and otherwise shut your mouth. You can't succeed in life if you can't grasp that basic social skill. This could have been done more gently than jailing them - maybe - but it's time for someone else other than the parents to step in and teach these kids a little intelligence.

 

[gitana1]

Snipped for brevity.

If the country abducted to is a Hague Convention signatory, the Hague Convention is the appropriate tool used, the FBI will facilitate this but it is a CIVIL action not a criminal one. Women have been able to use the above quoted page to fight return to the US which criminalizes the taking parent, which prejudices their case before they have been heard in family court. The FBI can liaise with other countries, but they have no power.

Parental abduction, is a civil matter in most countries. The US probably need to decide where they stand on the issue of children and family court, because 'best interest of the child' and 'criminalizing a parent' (who may well be working in the best interest of the child) are at odds.

BTW - I am not saying that is the case here, but I am saying that a lot of Child and Family law (in the US and UK) is great on paper, big on rhetoric, but dismally failing in practice.

I'm a family law attorney and well aware of the law. International kidnapping is a criminal issue in the United States. The FBI is involved in law enforcement. Civil remedies are also involved in international kidnapping cases and the FBI is not involved in those except they will give information and support. https://m.fbi.gov/#https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/cac/family-abductions

An analogy to what you're saying would be that the police department does not get involved in a murder charge because people are sometimes able to file wrongful death lawsuits or pursue other civil remedies stemming from a homicide. That doesn't make sense.

And I find it incomprehensible that anyone defends this emotionally abusive, law-breaking woman!!!

Its also interesting that anyone would call a parent who continues to fight in court for the right to be in his kids' lives, and who moves back from the country the parents are from and that the whole family lived in, giving up his new position to be closer to his kids in the process, has "abandoned" them.

Also, many people get remarried or create additional children after a divorce. Are they all abandoners?

Sometimes I wonder if people's own personal hatreds or unresolved traumas cloud their ability to apply logic when analyzing these cases.

 

[gitana1]

Was there a crime committed outside of the childs removal? Was the parent charged and jailed? Was the 'child' returned to the left behind parent? Is she suffering any ill effects from having been kidnapped? We also need to look at whether the kidnapping is parental interference or in the best interest of the child.

The Hague Convention is a civil matter. You have proved my point that it is the system that often fails these children, an 'oppositional' stance in court, Judges that are free to attempt their own form of alienation to attempt to redress the balance. A legal system that criminalizes parents instead of helping them, a system that does not see 'emotional abuse' as damaging to children, but they see 'parental alienation' as abusive. I could go on, but I am probably too emotionally invested in this topic.

One need only look at the Susan Powell case to understand the generational ramifications of parental kidnapping and alienation. I have posted links attesting to the incredible long term damage caused by parental alienation, kidnapping among the most severe forms of it. Do you think that's nonsense?

 

[BlueShoe]

I may be wrong, not having read up on all the details of this case, but from what I understand, these children are not "incorrigible" in the usual sense of the term. They have been described as top students and don't seem to have any behavioral problems outside of the courtroom. It is only when confronted with their father that they act this way. So this is not a case of not respecting authority in general. I think they would be perfectly respectful of the judge in other situations. As I said, I don't know the whole story, but I don't feel like the children should be made out to be some kind of delinquents. Treating them as if they are criminals is just wrong. JMO.

 

[jjenny]

I may be wrong, not having read up on all the details of this case, but from what I understand, these children are not "incorrigible" in the usual sense of the term. They have been described as top students and don't seem to have any behavioral problems outside of the courtroom. It is only when confronted with their father that they act this way. So this is not a case of not respecting authority in general. I think they would be perfectly respectful of the judge in other situations. As I said, I don't know the whole story, but I don't feel like the children should be made out to be some kind of delinquents. Treating them as if they are criminals is just wrong. JMO.

Neighbors describe the children as polite and well behaved. They are also doing well in school. So they are not juvenile delinquents by any means. I don't think this judge is doing them any good by forcing them to be around someone they don't want to be around.

 

[jjenny]

One need only look at the Susan Powell case to understand the generational ramifications of parental kidnapping and alienation. I have posted links attesting to the incredible long term damage caused by parental alienation, kidnapping among the most severe forms of it. Do you think that's nonsense?

Susan Powell case, where mother went "missing" yet father was allowed visitations and killed himself and his kids during one such visit? I am not following what that has to do with parental alienation syndrome. Who alienated who in that case?

 

[MyBelle]

I may be wrong, not having read up on all the details of this case, but from what I understand, these children are not "incorrigible" in the usual sense of the term. They have been described as top students and don't seem to have any behavioral problems outside of the courtroom. It is only when confronted with their father that they act this way. So this is not a case of not respecting authority in general. I think they would be perfectly respectful of the judge in other situations. As I said, I don't know the whole story, but I don't feel like the children should be made out to be some kind of delinquents. Treating them as if they are criminals is just wrong. JMO.

BBM. What other "situations" will that be? The only relevant situation they are in at the moment involves this Judge and they were incredibly disrespectful.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Susan Powell case, where mother went "missing" yet father was allowed visitations and killed himself and his kids during one such visit? I am not following what that has to do with parental alienation syndrome. Who alienated who in that case?

This case isn't about parental alienation syndrome, it is about parental alienation is considered child abuse. Josh Powell murdered his sons AFTER his wife's parents were awarded custody. Murder is also a form of child abuse.

JMO

 

[BlueShoe]

BBM. What other "situations" will that be? The only relevant situation they are in at the moment involves this Judge and they were incredibly disrespectful.

JMO

Let me re-phrase my point. The children are only being disrespectful because they are strongly against seeing their father, not because of any disrespect for the court or the judge. If the judge is taking this personally, I do think she is getting too emotionally involved. The children are not incorrigible, just not fond of their father. IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

Let me re-phrase my point. The children are only being disrespectful because they are strongly against seeing their father, not because of any disrespect for the court or the judge. If the judge is taking this personally, I do think she is getting too emotionally involved. The children are not incorrigible, just not fond of their father. IMO.

No excuse for anyone being disrespectful to a Judge. It isn't tolerated. If their mother has failed to impart this wisdom to them, that's on her.

JMO

 

[jjenny]

No excuse for anyone being disrespectful to a Judge. It isn't tolerated. If their mother has failed to impart this wisdom to them, that's on her.

JMO

And what about the judge being disrespectful to the children? What's her excuse?

 

[BritsKate]

Susan Powell case, where mother went "missing" yet father was allowed visitations and killed himself and his kids during one such visit? I am not following what that has to do with parental alienation syndrome. Who alienated who in that case?

After Susan went missing in 2009, Josh had uncontested custody of the boys. In fact, he moved them from Utah to Washington in order to be closer to his relatives. It was not until Susan's family was successful in obtaining custody and the court ordered visitation and a psychosexual assessment of Josh that the boys were murdered. Josh did everything in his power to keep the children from Susan's family for years.

Like many abusive personalities, his violence escalated when confronted with the loss of control - we see the same thing when domestic abuse victims pluck up the courage to leave their abusers...which may very well be why Susan went missing in the first place.

JMO

 

[jjenny]

After Susan went missing in 2009, Josh had uncontested custody of the boys. In fact, he moved them from Utah to Washington in order to be closer to his relatives. It was not until Susan's family was successful in obtaining custody and the court ordered visitation and a psychosexual assessment of Josh that the boys were murdered. Josh did everything in his power to keep the children from Susan's family for years.

Like many abusive personalities, his violence escalated when confronted with the loss of control - we see the same thing when domestic abuse victims pluck up the courage to leave their abusers...which may very well be why Susan went missing in the first place.

JMO

That doesn't answer my question as to what does Powell case have to do with parental alienation. Powell wasn't alienated from his children. He killed them and himself during what was supposed to have been supervised visitation.

 

[KaaBoom]

Doesn't matter if youngest remembers living with her father. It is in the best interest of the child that she have a relationship relationship with her father and her father certainly has parental rights as well.

It's so important for her to have a relationship with a father that she hardly knows that she should be taken away from the mother who has taken care of her every day of her life? Thats cold.

 

[lisalei321]

It's so important for her to have a relationship with a father that she hardly knows that she should be taken away from the mother who has taken care of her every day of her life? Thats cold.

If her mother hadn't done everything on her power to keep her away, she would know her father...

I still don't understand the defense of the mom...she KEPT the kids away, she REFUSED to follow court ordered visitation...and the dad has spent how much $$$$ and time just to see them?

What is with the advocating of walking away and being an absentee dad?

While the 2 dads of the kids whose mom killed them (help me out here peeps, Michigan case, mom put the deceased children in the freezer) are being slammed and shamed for not trying to have more contact!

SMH

MOO, JMO etc...

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[jjenny]

If her mother hadn't done everything on her power to keep her away, she would know her father...

I still don't understand the defense of the mom...she KEPT the kids away, she REFUSED to follow court ordered visitation...and the dad has spent how much $$$$ and time just to see them?

What is with the advocating of walking away and being an absentee dad?

While the 2 dads of the kids whose mom killed them (help me out here peeps, Michigan case, mom put the deceased children in the freezer) are being slammed and shamed for not trying to have more contact!

SMH

MOO, JMO etc...

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This father accepted a job in another country, even though his wife apparently didn't want to return to Israel. If one has wife and 3 kids, it might be a good idea to make sure wife is on board when taking a job that involves relocation to another country. And yet we are supposed to believe that it's all his wife fault he is alienated? As I understand it, he was remarried in Israel and had another child. Where is his second wife and child? Is she in Israel, considering the father says he moved back to US? I am sure he wouldn't want his fourth child to be alienated, so is that child in the same country as father is?

 

[Margo/Mom]

I may be wrong, not having read up on all the details of this case, but from what I understand, these children are not "incorrigible" in the usual sense of the term. They have been described as top students and don't seem to have any behavioral problems outside of the courtroom. It is only when confronted with their father that they act this way. So this is not a case of not respecting authority in general. I think they would be perfectly respectful of the judge in other situations. As I said, I don't know the whole story, but I don't feel like the children should be made out to be some kind of delinquents. Treating them as if they are criminals is just wrong. JMO.

I would suspect that if Mom was from a different income strata and ethnicity, being ordered to present her children at court and standing by as they sat on a bench and flat-out refused to enter, despite heroic efforts of court social worker, deputies, GAL, various and sundry, there would be little outcry at the determination of unruliness. And the public--if they were aware at all--would be tsk-tsking over the single parent mom and absentee dad caring insufficiently about their kids.

In short--stop giving the kids a break because they have economic advantages.

 

[lisalei321]

This father accepted a job in another country, even though his wife apparently didn't want to return to Israel. If one has wife and 3 kids, it might be a good idea to make sure wife is on board when taking a job that involves relocation to another country. And yet we are supposed to believe that it's all his wife fault he is alienated? As I understand it, he was remarried in Israel and had another child. Where is his second wife and child? Is she in Israel, considering the father says he moved back to US? I am sure he wouldn't want his fourth child to be alienated, so is that child in the same country as father is?

The mom moved with him...then came back to the states and divorced him...

She LEFT him...not him leaving her.

He has/is continuing to try to have a relationship with them. Wth, with Skype and international calling, there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to. My kids sure did.

Again, when did we start advocating for Dads to become absentee, when others who are are vilified?

And again, what would you think if the Dad was in moms place, and the mom was in his? Would those advocating for the mom be advocating for the dad?

Reversing the situation is the only way to see how to correct it.

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[jjenny]

The mom moved with him...then came back to the states and divorced him...

She LEFT him...not him leaving her.

He has/is continuing to try to have a relationship with them. Wth, with Skype and international calling, there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to. My kids sure did.

Again, when did we start advocating for Dads to become absentee, when others who are are vilified?

And again, what would you think if the Dad was in moms place, and the mom was in his? Would those advocating for the mom be advocating for the dad?

Reversing the situation is the only way to see how to correct it.

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She first filed for divorce when he decided to move to Israel. Eventually she agreed to move there, but returned to US after a short period of time and again filed for divorce.

 

[lisalei321]

She first filed for divorce when he decided to move to Israel. Eventually she agreed to move there, but returned to US after a short period of time and again filed for divorce.

So you proved my point...she moved with him, then left him...

And now she's keeping the kids from him.

If Dad would have done what she was/is doing, those who are advocating for mom would be doing the opposite if Dad had done it.

It can't be one way...

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