Mitigating - Aggravating Factors- General Information the penalty phase

[debbie0604]

About the blood money portion of the possible aggravated circumstances, I don't know how they would word that. Casey didn't kill Caylee for money, she just happened to fall backwards into money afterwards. It wasn't done specifically for gain. Casey never intended anyone to find out about it - EVER - so where would the intent for gain be?

IMO her mom was always saying that she could not support herself, that she (CA) was having to support Caylee... CA was telling her that she had to be home at night to take care of Caylee, etc. KC was lying to G&C about working and had them believing that she had a job. IIRC TL was working at Fusion. And, IIRC KC liked Fusion and IMO wanted to work in that type of atmosphere as well, however, it was difficult to do so with a child at home and CA wanting her at home at night.

Also, it is my opinion that there may have been a life insurance policy on Caylee that the A's may have had with KC the beneficiary. JMO

 

[chefmom]

I think the defense will be claiming Aspberger's as a mitigating factor. IMO, they know the odds are that they will lose, and they need to be able to explain KC's bizarre behavior of partying, lack of emotion over her "missing" child and complete lack of empathy for anyone but herself, and her "half-truths", "mis-truths" and outright lies. I do not know how to post a link in this post, (Sorry!), but a google of Aspberger's will show the symptoms. I'm not saying that she actually has this, but that it would be a good medical reason to spoonfeed a jury as to why KC is and was the way she has been throughout this ordeal. If they get to the point where saving her life is the main thing, then I foresee this diagnosis in KC's future. JMO.

 

[logicalgirl]

Does anyone know if CM used a mitigation specialist for his client during the Serrano (I think that is how it was spelled) trial? If he did, what mitigating factors were brought up? I know he came on board late and AL is the one who brought in Barrett, I am just wondering if this is a defense strategy that CM agrees with? There does seem to be disagreement within the defense on a couple of things and I was wondering if this was another area of contention?

ETA: Interesting, here are the mitigating factors argued at Serrano's trial:

http://www.theledger.com/assets/pdf/court/serrano.pdf

Pages 4 and 5. Similar to what will probably be used with KC. Well so much for me thinking CM might not agree about mitigating factors!

ETA Again : Sorry to re edit, but if you continue to read this sentencing order under mitigating factors, they get to non statutory factors. These are the ones that are going to hurt KC - some of the ones listed are good school performance, no history of drugs or alcohol, good social history, remorse, employment history. Oh I can't WAIT to hear the defense try to spin these factors!

Thanks for posting that post trial "wrap-up" - it was interesting to read and I haven't had the opportunity to read actual mitigating factors like that from a case. I see that "some weight" was given to factors, and there were many "positive" things about that defendant that ICA will not be able to say, like being a good marriage partner, father, attends churchs, university grad, wide circle of friends, helped many immigrants get settled in his community - quite the long list. Not so for ICA. As you said, I can't WAIT to hear what the defense has to say.

 

[logicalgirl]

I think the defense will be claiming Aspberger's as a mitigating factor. IMO, they know the odds are that they will lose, and they need to be able to explain KC's bizarre behavior of partying, lack of emotion over her "missing" child and complete lack of empathy for anyone but herself, and her "half-truths", "mis-truths" and outright lies. I do not know how to post a link in this post, (Sorry!), but a google of Aspberger's will show the symptoms. I'm not saying that she actually has this, but that it would be a good medical reason to spoonfeed a jury as to why KC is and was the way she has been throughout this ordeal. If they get to the point where saving her life is the main thing, then I foresee this diagnosis in KC's future. JMO.

Interesting you would bring up Aspbergers - I remember we had quite the discussion about this on one of the threads, and if I also remember correctly, we have a member who either has a close relative with Aspbergers or knows a great deal about it.

I remember now! I wondered if LEE had Aspbergers - hmm - I think I got shot down.....LOL

 

[logicalgirl]

Exactly.... and IMO if she ever did have seizures previously prior to incarceration, and had been treated, it would/should have been documented... because if I am correct about this...when someone actually has seizures don't they lose their driver's license for six months until they are seizure free (for six months)? Or let me phrase it this way... aren't they suppose to not drive until seizure free for six months, and this would be documented in their medical chart by the physician who would be treating them and titrating their medication for seizures? (just sayin..) JMO :waitasec:

OOOHHH! Good point re the drivers license - of course you are right and I'd forgotten about that. My neighbor had a brain injury from a very bad car accident, but has been left with seizures. He's on medication and is trying to get his license back now, as you say. He's taking a whole new set of tests as if he's never driven before.

 

[logicalgirl]

Page 81 (pdf page 91) begins discussion of the mitigating factors, followed by what can not be considered as mitigating factors, and then proof problems with mitigating factors.

It helps to use the table of contents beginning on pdf page 5 beginning with section 6.8.1 to find the different sections for the different factors.

Florida College of Advanced Judicial Studies

Conducting the Penalty Phase of a Capital Case (2009)

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Eaton/2009_AJS_Pen_Phase_Mat.pdf

This is an amazingly comprehensive document which I've just spent two hours reading. I'm going to need to actually print it out to see how it applies, in my legally uneducated pea brain, to ICA's trial.

But whew! Very well worth the read. Thanks BeanE

 

[logicalgirl]

Okay so after my browse of the mitigation factors, it looks like the Judge must allow all mitigation arguments in that fit the defined list that is laid out, however whether or not these factors pass the weight test or not seems to be another thing altogether.

Such as getting information that is listed as "some weight" in a number of the factors, doesn't look like it necessarily means it outweighs a decision of either LWOP or the death penalty.

And I may change my mind after I print BeanE's document and start with my yellow marker, however I could only see two factors that may be given some weight.

ICA's age, and her emotional immaturity. I don't believe the Defense will be able to have their mitigation specialist dig up enough information to rise to the mitigation litmus test - given what I know at this point.IMO

 

[logicalgirl]

I see I have a long list of prior posts and no one else is in the thread, so I'm obviously boring you all to tears, so I only have one more thing, and it's a question to all you Mothers and Daughters out there. Seriously I'd like to hear your thoughts on this - it's kind of a chicken or the egg kind of a question.

Given what we know about Casey's outrageous behavior re lying, stealing from her family members and friends:

Which do you think came first? Cindy's controlling behavior or Casey's outrageous behavior and attitudes, lack of responsibility towards her own life and that of her child?

Are you sure?

 

[Anais]

I see I have a long list of prior posts and no one else is in the thread, so I'm obviously boring you all to tears, so I only have one more thing, and it's a question to all you Mothers and Daughters out there. Seriously I'd like to hear your thoughts on this - it's kind of a chicken or the egg kind of a question.

Given what we know about Casey's outrageous behavior re lying, stealing from her family members and friends:

Which do you think came first? Cindy's controlling behavior or Casey's outrageous behavior and attitudes, lack of responsibility towards her own life and that of her child?

Are you sure?

LOL you crack me up, you could never ever bore us! :

I think that CA's controlling and dominating behavior was Casey's entire life imo. However I don't believe that it in itself necessarily is what caused Casey's behaviors or attitudes. IMO Casey is a borderline personality with sociopath/narcissitic qualities to her. JMO

She never finished school, lied through her teeth to all, never held a job and just wanted to live a good ole party down lifestyle and get a free ride through it all! Unless her fantasies are included. They are going to find it tough I think. When I think back to the entire story to Amy about the parent's selling her the house etc. I truly believe she may have been planning to get rid of them too.

 

[affinity]

I see I have a long list of prior posts and no one else is in the thread, so I'm obviously boring you all to tears, so I only have one more thing, and it's a question to all you Mothers and Daughters out there. Seriously I'd like to hear your thoughts on this - it's kind of a chicken or the egg kind of a question.

Given what we know about Casey's outrageous behavior re lying, stealing from her family members and friends:

Which do you think came first? Cindy's controlling behavior or Casey's outrageous behavior and attitudes, lack of responsibility towards her own life and that of her child?

Are you sure?

Logicalgirl, thanks for the question. None of us just fell from the sky with whatever neurotic behavior we currently have! There is cause and effect for everything. My view? CA created KC with her crazymaking neurotic mercurial "parenting". She should be in jail in a cell right next to KC.

 

[qipx1]

I think the defense will be claiming Aspberger's

Um... Asperger's syndrome would be the wrong diagnosis no psychologist would ever argue it for Casey.

Asperger's Syndrome: "Not pick up on social cues and may lack inborn social skills, such as being able to read others' body language, start or maintain a conversation, and take turns talking."

Casey: Very manipulative, can easily read social cues, has trouble NOT starting a conversation.

Asperger's Syndrome: "Dislike any changes in routines."

Casey: Dislikes routines.

Asperger's Syndrome: "Appear to lack empathy."

Casey: Pretends to have empathy

Asperger's Syndrome: "Have heightened sensitivity and become overstimulated by loud noises, lights, or strong tastes or textures. "

Casey: Likes to party with loud noises, and lights.

Asperger's Syndrome: "Have a formal style of speaking that is advanced for his or her age. For example, the child may use the word 'beckon' instead of 'call' or the word 'return' instead of 'come back.'"

Casey: Has a non formal style of speaking that is limited for her age. For example Casey uses the nickname "Cookie" instead of "Fellow inmate".

Asperger's in adulthood:
"Asperger's syndrome is a lifelong condition, although it tends to stabilize over time, and improvements are often seen. Adults usually obtain a better understanding of their own strengths and weaknesses...Some traits that are typical of Asperger's syndrome, such as attention to detail and focused interests, can increase chances of university and career success. Many people with Asperger's seem to be fascinated with technology, and a common career choice is engineering. But scientific careers are by no means the only areas where people with Asperger's excel. Indeed, many respected historical figures have had symptoms of Asperger's, including Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Albert Einstein, Marie Curie, and Thomas Jefferson. "

Casey in adulthood:
Complete ADHD, and probably can't spell "engineering".


Source: http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/tc/aspergers-syndrome-symptoms?page=2
Source: Knowing people with Asperger's syndrome.

 

[Macushla]

l

Which do you think came first? Cindy's controlling behavior or Casey's outrageous behavior and attitudes, lack of responsibility towards her own life and that of her child?

Are you sure?

That is a very interesting question. I have a relative (not going to identify more than that) who is VERY similar to KC - she just hasn't murdered anyone yet! Her mother is nothing like Cindy. In this case, it is the behavior of the child and nothing to do with the mother, and I am close enough to do a lot of observing so I am confident in saying her Mom is a nuturing, good parent.

Did Cindy's controlling send KC spiraling out of control? As I said my relative hasnt' done anything criminal and probably won't (but I am not 100% sure). So was Cindy's behavior the trigger that set KC off?

Let me see if I can explain what I am saying: If we had an outragious child and a nice mother or a controlloing mother but a normal every day child - would this have happened? Or did it take both mother and daughter to make the toxic mix that, over time, ended up with Caylee's death?

So I guess I think it was a combination of both CA and KC, if either one had been different or not in the mix, this may not have happened.

 

[sleutherontheside]

As a parent of a child with Asperger's.....there is no way that KC falls under that criteria. I can't even say that Lee does becasue we haven't seen enough of him to make that determination. Social awkwardness is but one of many issues that are common with Asperger's. However........social awkwardness often stems from failing to learn social skills early on.

The entire family has poor social skills from my observations.....that is likely the cause of any social ineptness exhibited. That doesn't mean that there isn't a psychological dynamic in play......but Asperger's........not a chance!

 

[Mamabear1963]

IMO, I think CA controlling behavior came first...I think she has been that way from day 1 in ICA life and in GA's.

I don't believe however that we can blame all of ICA on CA.

My grandmother was VERY controlling and a manipulation queen...she gave birth to 4 dc. 3 dd and 1 son. My mom was the only one of the 4 to break from the practice of manipulating garbage.

I think we have a choice in how we respond to our environment...ICA chose what she chose....no one was holding a gun to her head. MOO

 

[Cat13067]

When JB asked for the JAC records to be sealed he cited Florida Rule of Court 3.216 (a). This rule pertains to "insanity at the time of the offense". In 43 states Florida being one of them 1% of defense attorneys defend their clients claiming insanity. Out of the 1% one quarter of those cases were successful. An example would be John Hinkley the man who shot Ronald Reagan. John Hinkley was deemed insane, and sentenced to a mental facility. The difference between John Hinkley, and KC is John had a documented history of mental health issues. I don't believe KC telling AD that she needs to go to a mental institution would carry any weight with the jurors. If CA, and GA felt she displayed mental disorders why would they allow Caylee to be alone with KC? There is just no evidence to support KC had any mental disorders so, citing 3.216 (a) is far reaching for the defense. The prosecution does not have any doctors on their witness list with regard to KC's mental health. KC was given an exam by two mental health professionals that found her sane. They also noted that KC knew right from wrong which is opposite from someone like John Hinkley.

 

[Cat13067]

As a parent of a child with Asperger's.....there is no way that KC falls under that criteria. I can't even say that Lee does becasue we haven't seen enough of him to make that determination. Social awkwardness is but one of many issues that are common with Asperger's. However........social awkwardness often stems from failing to learn social skills early on.

The entire family has poor social skills from my observations.....that is likely the cause of any social ineptness exhibited. That doesn't mean that there isn't a psychological dynamic in play......but Asperger's........not a chance!

My granddaughter has Asperger's, and as you said, KC does not fall under the criteria for Asperger's.

 

[Just Jayla]

IF she is not discredited by the defense, Maya D's recollections could really aggravate this case. She will state that she attempted to give KC a way to open up, but over time she studied Casey's demeanor and reactions when she or others brought Caylee up, and that it was very sociopathic in nature.
She was not behaving as a worried mother would at all. Nor was KC constantly proclaiming her innocence-She just seemed to not acknowledge what she did not want to acknowledge.
Maya would know very well how a cold blooded killer feels under "normal" circumstances, and she was able to identify that KC was not registering any of those emotions-KC was actually cold enough to put Maya off. IMO, Maya's account will be more compelling than Lt. Uncer's as far as KC's ability to be a total narcissist, unconcerened with anything Caylee.

 

[Cat13067]

My granddaughter was 2 years old when she was diagnosed as a child with high functioning Autism/Asperger's. My daughter immediately took her to a physical therapist, and speech therapist. She is now four years old, and is in a main stream preschool. Her therapists come to her school twice a week to work with her. She still has melt downs from time to time, but her social skills are improving daily. If KC had Asperger's nurse CA would have seen it. IMO

 

[autumnlover]

This is an interesting discussion on the mitigating factors the defense might claim if KC is found guilty (she will be). I find it doubly interesting that JA said he only needed one day for the presenting the State's case during the penalty phase and the defense said it needed a week. There's a lot of evidence they have to overcome, friends. The pics of KC partying at Fusian will be supported by the jailhouse letters, IMO, demonstrating a complete lack of empathy or feeling for her daughter or remorse for her actions. Last night on Dateline a lawyer used an interesting term to describe a sociopath: a "reptile, completely cold-blooded, empty of any feelings or emotions." Not reporting her daughter missing, the jailhouse letters, the jailhouse phone calls (especially the one where she only wanted TL's number and said "all anyone cares about is Caylee..."), the stealing, the bald-faced lying to police with absolutely no emotion in her voice, the interview by CPS who cite her lack of emotions, etc. The tip of the iceberg will be the duct tape. This is going to be very, very difficult for the defense. The only mitigating factor that might work is her age.

 

[Cat13067]

IF she is not discredited by the defense, Maya D's recollections could really aggravate this case. She will state that she attempted to give KC a way to open up, but over time she studied Casey's demeanor and reactions when she or others brought Caylee up, and that it was very sociopathic in nature.
She was not behaving as a worried mother would at all. Nor was KC constantly proclaiming her innocence-She just seemed to not acknowledge what she did not want to acknowledge.
Maya would know very well how a cold blooded killer feels under "normal" circumstances, and she was able to identify that KC was not registering any of those emotions-KC was actually cold enough to put Maya off. IMO, Maya's account will be more compelling than Lt. Uncer's as far as KC's ability to be a total narcissist, unconcerened with anything Caylee.

Remember what KC wrote...Trust no one but yourself.