MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #4 - Chauvin Trial Day 1

[RANCH]

No, not at all. I just feel like I keep asking and still can't find an answer. I thought for sure I read they had to prove assault, or were claiming that Floyd died while the officers were committing or trying to commit 3rd degree assault, but I could be wrong.

I think I saw it in one of the many news links I've looked at in the past few hours. I'll see if I can find it.

It's in my post #275 up thread.

 

[Rocky1]

Well, yes, I meant third degree assault. If an officer can be convicted of felony assault or battery for using excessive force during an arrest, I don't see why they couldn't be found guilty of murder if the person dies as a result. Otherwise why are they even charging him with second degree murder?

You're right..
Statute 609.02. (Subsection 7a ) Says that if any bodily function or organ is damaged during an assault, that would be 3rd degree assault... a Felony.
Just kneeling on somebody's neck would be "Simple Assault", a misdemeanor.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.02

 

[Rocky1]

I looked earlier today and couldn't find a link that stated how long the trial is expected to last.

He may have been better off asking for a bench trial and not have to worry if the jury has any love for him. I doubt they will even if he gets on the stand. Too late for that now. JMO

I disagree with charges this serious. IMO, it's best to have a jury trial where twelve have to be for a guilty verdict, as opposed to only one.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/WitnessList02082021.pdf

(Witness list)

This will likely hit the 1-month expectancy... and more, IMO.

 

[margarita25]

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/WitnessList02082021.pdf

(Witness list)

This will likely hit the 1-month expectancy... and more, IMO.

A lot of doctors on the defense list. This oughta be interesting.

 

[Rocky1]

Here’s one thing I don’t think the defense can prove/say, that GF would have been dead anyway at that exact moment due to tox or health conditions. They can’t say that even if DC hadn’t kneed him, he would’ve been dead anyway at that exact moment. Hope this makes sense. Timing of his death is of crucial importance.

Yes but the defense doesn't have to prove anything. It's all up to the State to prove GF died due to Chauvin's actions and not drugs etc.

 

[margarita25]

Yes but the defense doesn't have to prove anything. It's all up to the State to prove GF died due to Chauvin's actions and not drugs etc.

Well, if the defense can attribute COD to something else, like drugs or a medical episode, then that would be (attempting to) shed doubt on the prosecution’s argument that DC’s actions directly caused GF’s death, which is what I imagine their playbook strategy is going to be.

But it seems @Sillybilly just noted above that all the prosecution has to show is that DC’s action was a “substantial causal factor“, and not the only one:

As per Laura Coates on CNN, all they have to prove is that Chauvin's action was a "substantial causal factor", not that it was the only factor.

https://twitter.com/thelauracoates/status/1376536703427620864

CNN also had Neil Franklin, former federal prosecutor who has (paraphrased) also led training for many LE departments in Maryland, is familiar with national standards for use of force, and nothing like this has ever been trained in any police department that he knows of. He can't foresee that any expert in use of force could testify that this was just regular police training.

 

[RANCH]

I disagree with charges this serious. IMO, it's best to have a jury trial where twelve have to be for a guilty verdict, as opposed to only one.

It worked for an officer in the Freddie Gray case.
Freddie Gray case: Officer Caesar Goodson Jr. not guilty on all charges

After an eight-day bench trial, Circuit Judge Barry Williams found Goodson not guilty on charges that included second-degree depraved-heart murder and three counts of manslaughter.

Freddie Gray case: Officer Caesar Goodson Jr. not guilty on all charges

 

[MsBetsy]

You're right..
Statute 609.02. (Subsection 7a ) Says that if any bodily function or organ is damaged during an assault, that would be 3rd degree assault... a Felony.
Just kneeling on somebody's neck would be "Simple Assault", a misdemeanor.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.02

Well, kneeling on someone's neck for nine minutes might cause severe damage or bodily dysfunction, especially if it cuts off one's air supply for a few minutes, causing unconsciousness or death.

 

[Rocky1]

It worked for an officer in the Freddie Gray case.
Freddie Gray case: Officer Caesar Goodson Jr. not guilty on all charges


Freddie Gray case: Officer Caesar Goodson Jr. not guilty on all charges

Oh, I'm not saying he wouldn't have a chance, just MOO, his chances are better with 12 having to all agree.
Let me ask you this. Why do you think the judge allowed that 3rd degree murder charge?

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

Well, kneeling on someone's neck for nine minutes might cause severe damage or bodily disfunction, especially if it cuts off one's air supply for a few minutes, causing unconsciousness or death.

I thought that report noted no known damage to the throat + larynx area?

 

[Rocky1]

Well, kneeling on someone's neck for nine minutes might cause severe damage or bodily disfunction, especially if it cuts off one's air supply for a few minutes, causing unconsciousness or death.

I agree, and I believe that's what the State is saying too.

 

[RANCH]

Well, kneeling on someone's neck for nine minutes might cause severe damage or bodily disfunction, especially if it cuts off one's air supply for a few minutes, causing unconsciousness or death.

That's what I want to know. Did Chauvin's actions kill George Floyd or did the drugs combined with all of the activity's that he was subjected to in his encounter with the police?

 

[Rocky1]

That's what I want to know. Did Chauvin's actions kill George Floyd or did the drugs combined with all of the activity's that he was subjected to in his encounter with the police?

That's the million dollar question. Wait, I mean 27 million dollar question.

 

[MsBetsy]

Oh, I'm not saying he wouldn't have a chance, just MOO, his chances are better with 12 having to all agree.
Let me ask you this. Why do you think the judge allowed that 3rd degree murder charge?

That's what I don't understand. The prosecution said it was to ensure a murder conviction, but don't they have to show that other's lives were in eminent danger?

 

[RANCH]

Oh, I'm not saying he wouldn't have a chance, just MOO, his chances are better with 12 having to all agree.
Let me ask you this. Why do you think the judge allowed that 3rd degree murder charge?

Because of the State Supreme court ruling.

Minnesota Supreme Court puts 3rd-degree murder back on the table for Derek Chauvin

The Minnesota Supreme Court issued a decision Wednesday that could revive a charge of third-degree murder against Derek Chauvin as attorneys in his trial seated the fifth juror who will hear testimony about the killing of George Floyd.

Supreme Court puts 3rd-degree murder back on the table for Chauvin

 

[margarita25]

I don’t think anyone can say/prove that DC’s knee on the neck was NOT a “substantial causal factor” (my new phrase, get used it to it, I’ll be using it from here on out lol, thanks @Sillybilly hehe).

Now, al though I’ve wagered the prediction of a guilty verdict based on the powerful and clear picture that the audio and video present, one never knows how a jury member may vote, and frankly if any members may have prebiases, that may not be known. As a strong supporter of law enforcement over the years, I can honestly say that my interpretation and opinion of the video comes without any kind of bias.

Do I trust each of the jury members to assess the evidence independently of any prebiases or prejudices? Honestly I can not, and that comes after this last year of division on all levels, jmo.

So, one really never knows how it will turn out.

All jmo.

 

[MsBetsy]

That's what I want to know. Did Chauvin's actions kill George Floyd or did the drugs combined with all of the activity's that he was subjected to in his encounter with the police?

And apparently all they have to prove is that the neck kneeling was a "substantial causal factor." There's no way to know if Floyd could have been saved if he had received immediate medical attention (after he first said he couldn't breathe,) or if he would have died anyway had he never been restrained.

 

[RANCH]

And apparently all they have to prove is that the neck kneeling was a "substantial causal factor." There's no way to know if Floyd could have been saved if he had received immediate medical attention (after he first said he couldn't breathe,) or if he would have died anyway had he never been restrained.

That what a trial is for. For the State to prove it's case.

For all I know the most "substantial causal factor" in this case is the potent drugs in George Floyd's system at the time of his encounter with the police. JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

It worked for an officer in the Freddie Gray case.
Freddie Gray case: Officer Caesar Goodson Jr. not guilty on all charges


Freddie Gray case: Officer Caesar Goodson Jr. not guilty on all charges

The big difference between a bench trial and a jury trial however is that judges can set emotion aside and rule strictly according to law, but with a jury there is the emotional aspect that factors in, regardless of how much we'd like to think it should not.

JMO