MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #7 - Chauvin Trial Day 4

[UKslueth2018]

To my very untrained legal eye, 2nd degree manslaughter seems like a slam dunk conviction. Not sure at all on the 3rd degree murder charge.
Based on the findings in the autopsy report, indicating no external or internal damage to the neck , I think murder charges will be hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

The lack or rendered medical aid and the prolonged restraint , however, show negligence beyond a doubt.

These are only my opinions and there is still more to come in this trial.

I see Dc kneeling as perpetrating dangerous act. Training says restraint, then turn on side.

Positional asphyxia is known to police

“causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous”

But I am not a lawyer either

Edit to add: my mind is whirring so cant imagine how jury must be feeling xx

 

[Sillybilly]

Thank you for this. I think I’m even more confused then. So, were questions asked towards him purely hypothetical and/or judgement calls?

The question was specifically in relation to the use of force in this case. Earlier in Sgt. Pleoger's testimony, excerpts from the MPD use of force manual were introduced, basically setting out what he ultimately answered below.

Police supervisor testifies officers "could have ended their restraint" against George Floyd

The proceedings on Thursday ended with the testimony of Chauvin's police supervisor, retired Minneapolis Police Sergeant David Pleoger, who testified that the officers' use of force against Floyd could have ended once the man stopped resisting.

My transcription of the actual Q&A of that portion of the trial:

Q: Do you have an opinion as to when the restraint of Mr. Floyd should have ended in this encounter

A: Yes

Q: What is it

A: When Mr. Floyd was no longer offering up any resistance to the officers, they could have ended their restraint.

(IMO, the witness waffled a smidge because the Prosecutor said "should have ended" and Sgt. Pleoger said "could have ended". ETA: I don't recall the precise wording from the policy manual, but it was clear to me at the time that the force should have stopped as soon as there was no resistance)

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

I’m having connection issues, so I haven’t been able to hear Nelson fully.

However, I was under the impression this witness actually interviewed and spoke to the responding officers and other duties entailed w/his position, but it does appear he merely is responding to hypotheticals, judgement calls, etc.

Hopefully the rest of his testimony clarified why he’s there, and not the superior(?) who essentially took over.

If I’m understanding the judge correctly before Nelson speaks, he also appears to be confused causing the brief timeout, and (paraphrased) tricky legal issue.
—
I’m also going to take a stab and guess the gentleman pleading the 5th (self-incriminating) is likely some variance of a informant. His out of state flee, using counterfeit money, drug dealing, etc. doesn’t appear to have landed him in jail as far as I can tell. And since he doesn’t appear to be testifying, no offer would be on the table.

 

[SouthAussie]

I’m having connection issues, so I haven’t been able to hear Nelson fully.

However, I was under the impression this witness actually interviewed and spoke to the responding officers and other duties entailed w/his position, but it does appear he merely is responding to hypotheticals, judgement calls, etc.

Hopefully the rest of his testimony clarified why he’s there, and not the superior(?) who essentially took over.

If I’m understanding the judge correctly before Nelson speaks, he also appears to be confused causing the brief timeout, and (paraphrased) tricky legal issue.

If you are speaking of Sgt. Ploeger, he was there because the dispatcher contacted him re: her concerns about the amount of force being used (that she saw on CCTV).

He told the dispatcher that he would go and check it out. He called Chauvin to find out what was going on, and headed to the scene. Chauvin did not tell him he had been kneeling on George's neck for 9 minutes.


Following the call, Ploeger said he drove to the scene of the incident, where upon arrival learned of the gravity of the situation. But even after he arrived, he told the court, neither Chauvin nor any of the other officers informed him that the defendant had knelt on Floyd's neck and back, while handcuffed and long after he'd passed out.
It wasn't until later that night at the Hennepin County Medical Center that Chauvin finally told him what he'd done, Ploeger said.
Chauvin's Former Supervisor Testifies Restraint Should Have Ended Much Sooner

 

[SouthAussie]

The question was specifically in relation to the use of force in this case. Earlier in Sgt. Pleoger's testimony, excerpts from the MPD use of force manual were introduced, basically setting out what he ultimately answered below.

Police supervisor testifies officers "could have ended their restraint" against George Floyd

The proceedings on Thursday ended with the testimony of Chauvin's police supervisor, retired Minneapolis Police Sergeant David Pleoger, who testified that the officers' use of force against Floyd could have ended once the man stopped resisting.

My transcription of the actual Q&A of that portion of the trial:

Q: Do you have an opinion as to when the restraint of Mr. Floyd should have ended in this encounter

A: Yes

Q: What is it

A: When Mr. Floyd was no longer offering up any resistance to the officers, they could have ended their restraint.

(IMO, the witness waffled a smidge because the Prosecutor said "should have ended" and Sgt. Pleoger said "could have ended". ETA: I don't recall the precise wording from the policy manual, but it was clear to me at the time that the force should have stopped as soon as there was no resistance)

However, the witness did follow up with should in his next sentence.

"When Mr. Floyd was no longer offering up any resistance to the officers, they could have ended the restraint," Ploeger told the court.
"It would be reasonable to put a knee on someone's neck until they were not resisting anymore, but it should stop when they are no longer combative"
Chauvin's Former Supervisor Testifies Restraint Should Have Ended Much Sooner

 

[Sillybilly]

However, the witness did follow up with should in his next sentence.

"When Mr. Floyd was no longer offering up any resistance to the officers, they could have ended the restraint," Ploeger told the court.
"It would be reasonable to put a knee on someone's neck until they were not resisting anymore, but it should stop when they are no longer combative"
Chauvin's Former Supervisor Testifies Restraint Should Have Ended Much Sooner

Thank you SA. That's what I thought but couldn't find it anywhere in MSM and didn't want to rely on my memory.

 

[angelainwi]

I’m having connection issues, so I haven’t been able to hear Nelson fully.

However, I was under the impression this witness actually interviewed and spoke to the responding officers and other duties entailed w/his position, but it does appear he merely is responding to hypotheticals, judgement calls, etc.

Hopefully the rest of his testimony clarified why he’s there, and not the superior(?) who essentially took over.

If I’m understanding the judge correctly before Nelson speaks, he also appears to be confused causing the brief timeout, and (paraphrased) tricky legal issue.
—
I’m also going to take a stab and guess the gentleman pleading the 5th (self-incriminating) is likely some variance of a informant. His out of state flee, using counterfeit money, drug dealing, etc. doesn’t appear to have landed him in jail as far as I can tell. And since he doesn’t appear to be testifying, no offer would be on the table.

He did interview and speak to the responding officers. The case only moved up once he was aware that Floyd had died. It then became a critical incident. He responded to the scene that night as the Sergeant on shift. He was Chauvin's supervisor

 

[Sillybilly]

He did interview and speak to the responding officers. The case only moved up once he was aware that Floyd had died. It then became a critical incident. He responded to the scene that night as the Sergeant on shift. He was Chauvin's supervisor

Sgt Pleoger is also in charge of the use of force matters on a regular basis. It follows that he is qualified and knowledegable as to what constitutes force and when that force should be stopped in accordance with MPD policy.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

Sgt Pleoger is also in charge of the use of force matters on a regular basis. It follows that he is qualified and knowledegable as to what constitutes force and when that force should be stopped in accordance with MPD policy.

I’m having the hardest time with internet, but at roughly 7:11:30 (estimation), something is mentioned about lack of reviewing + chain-of-command.

I could be mistaken, however.

 

[SouthAussie]

I’m having the hardest time with internet, but at roughly 7:11:30 (estimation), something is mentioned about lack of reviewing + chain-of-command.

I could be mistaken, however.

I think the point was if Sgt Ploeger is qualified to determine infractions of use of force. The judge, in your linked video, seemed to determine that he is - on a limited basis - and allowed the question.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

I think the point was if Sgt Ploeger is qualified to determine infractions of use of force. The judge, in your linked video, seemed to determine that he is - on a limited basis - and allowed the question.

Is he not considered a “expert witness” then? This is where I’m confused: why the issue, unless he wasn’t, and is more-of a “character witness?”

 

[MsBetsy]

Is he not considered a “expert witness” then? This is where I’m confused: why the issue, unless he wasn’t, and is more-of a “character witness?”

I think the issue that Nelson had was that he had not reviewed all the evidence (55,000 pages) and had turned over the use of force review to internal affairs (since excessive force was used) and was not qualified to give his opinions about the unnecessary use of force. However the judge ruled that he was qualified to give an opinion based on his preliminary review.

Sgt. Ploeger intitially interviewed all the officers at the hospital, and once Chauvin told him he kneeled on Floyd's neck while he was in handcuffs, he turned it over to Internal Affairs, which is standard procedure. He also said he had reviewed all the body cam footage.
Imo

 

[Cool Cats]

Witness Who Was in Floyd’s Car Says His Friend Did Not Resist Arrest

Derek Chauvin trial: Key witness to invoke the 5th Amendment, refuses to testify

Morries Lester Hall informed the court Wednesday that he will plead the fifth amendment and not testify in the trial of Derek Chauvin. (Minneapolis Police body camera footage submitted as evidence in the trial of Derek Chauvin)

The Hennepin County Public Defender's Office filed a notice Wednesday on behalf of Morries Lester Hall, 42, who was in the car with Floyd when police approached him for allegedly using a fake $20 bill at Cup Foods in Minneapolis.

"Mr. Morries Lester Hall, through undersigned counsel, hereby provides notice to all parties in this matter that if called to testify he will invoke his Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination," said a notice filed by assistant public defender Adrienne Cousins. "Therefore, counsel for Mr. Hall respectfully moves this court to quash the subpoena ... and release Mr. Hall from any obligations therein."

 

[mickey2942]

He did interview and speak to the responding officers. The case only moved up once he was aware that Floyd had died. It then became a critical incident. He responded to the scene that night as the Sergeant on shift. He was Chauvin's supervisor

Interesting. I noticed that he is retired, I wonder if this situation had anything to do with his retirement?

And, not to be inappropriate, I found his testimony lacking in veracity. After the taped conversation was over, the for the "39" conversation, he testified that Chauvin did not mention placing a knee on Floyd’s neck.

I don't know, but I am pretty sure that came up during the convo.

 

[Boodles]

Every single plea from each of the witnesses was a reminder to Chauvin to redirect his attention to the suspect AND to remind him what attention the suspect needed.

Imo each plea was Chauvin's reminder to do the right thing, and with each plea he chose not too.

And I’ve been thinking that he was giving a big “F you” to the crowd, showing them that he, DC, can do whatever he wants, he’ll show the crowd who’s in charge.

I think I’m going to lose sleep again tonight. I can’t handle the reality of what Chauvin did to another human being. Poor George, he was tortured. And the poor witnesses and GF’s loved ones.

 

[MsBetsy]

However, the witness did follow up with should in his next sentence.

"When Mr. Floyd was no longer offering up any resistance to the officers, they could have ended the restraint," Ploeger told the court.
"It would be reasonable to put a knee on someone's neck until they were not resisting anymore, but it should stop when they are no longer combative"
Chauvin's Former Supervisor Testifies Restraint Should Have Ended Much Sooner

I think that was a significant moment in the trial because it points to intent. That Chauvin did not admit to his supervisor that he used excessive force, (specifically kneeling on Floyd's neck,) shows "consciousness of guilt." He knew it wasn't warranted, yet he did it anyway. Ultimately he had no choice but to admit it.

For second degree murder they don't have to prove he intended to kill him, but they may consider that he intended to hurt him knowing the risk of causing significant bodily harm. He made a conscious decision to continue, knowing Floyd was having trouble breathing and had ingested a dangerous combination of drugs.
Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Interesting. I noticed that he is retired, I wonder if this situation had anything to do with his retirement?

And, not to be inappropriate, I found his testimony lacking in veracity. After the taped conversation was over, the for the "39" conversation, he testified that Chauvin did not mention placing a knee on Floyd’s neck.

I don't know, but I am pretty sure that came up during the convo.

I guess the important thing is that it eventually did come out that Chauvin failed to mention that crucial bit of information about kneeling on
Floyd's neck (although he never mentioned it was nine minutes, apparently)

I'm not sure what the "39" conversation was, but I can understand why Nelson objected to Sgt. Ploeger's testimony, as it was very damning to the defense.

 

[margarita25]

Good evening, good morning, whatever you want to call it. I’ve gotten a lot of work done on the exhibits list and some other notes and will post tomorrow (today) when I get a chance (too cross eyed to make the remainder of some notations, etc.).

I look forward to reading your comments and thoughts on today’s proceedings. I found the testimony of the paramedics, Captain Norton and especially DP all very interesting.

 

[BoyThatsWeird]

ok.. see y'all in the am! I'm off to continue to read Lane's affidavit https://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/cs/files/Floyd Transcript 1.pdf or just chill with mindless tv.

What I learned today that I didn't know before from the part of Lanes affidavit is that he was the same height as GF. Six feet seven inches tall!!!!! Who knew!!! I was shocked.

Thank you for sharing this link. Interesting stuff that will surely be used to attempt to create a reasonable doubt by defense. “Excited deletion” being the main in that I hadn’t heard. IMO

 

[Niner]

@JerseyGirl - when Day 5 thread opens - please re-post! TIA!

Friday, April 2nd:
*Trial continues (Day 5) (@ 9am for motions; trial @ 9:15am CT) - MN – George Perry Floyd, Jr. (46) (May 25, 2020, Minneapolis, arrested for forgery & killed in police custody) - *Derek Michael Chauvin (44/now 45) police officer who held his knee on Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes & 46 seconds (Note: on 10/14/20 this has been changed to 9 minutes & 30 seconds) (& non responsive for 2 minutes & 53 seconds before officer took his knee off his neck; from 8:19pm to 8:28pm his knee was on Floyd’s neck; has been fired (5/26/20) & arrested & charged (5/29/20) with 3rd degree murder & 2nd degree manslaughter. Charges changed (6/3/20) to 2nd degree murder-unintentional-while committing a felony, 3rd degree murder-perpetrating eminently dangerous act (3rd degree charge was dismissed on 10/22/20 & reinstated on 3/11/21) & evincing depraved mind & 2nd degree manslaughter-culpable negligence creating unreasonable risk. $500K bond, reset (6/8/20) @ $1.25M & $1M with conditions. Posted non-cash $1M bond (10/7/20) & has been released from jail.
Trial began on 3/8/21 with jury selection. Jury selection ran through March 23, 2021. Trial with opening statements & the commencement of the State’s case began on March 29, 2021. Experts anticipate the trial could last 2-4 weeks. Jurors: 12 & 2 alternates (9 women & 5 men). Jurors will be sequestered during deliberations. None of the other officers will be testifying at Chauvin’s trial.
Jurors’ info reference post #6 here:
MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #4 - Chauvin Trial Day 1
Bond conditions & court info 12/19/20 thru 3/23/21 & jury selection (3/9 thru 3/23) & Day 1 to 3 of Trial (3/29 to 3/31/21) reference post #6 here:
MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #7 - Chauvin Trial Day 4
4/1/21 Thursday Trial Day 4: Each morning of the trial the judge has set aside 9am CT/10am ET for any motions/issues with attorneys. No motions this morning. Judge: We are ahead of schedule and will take tomorrow afternoon. Out about 12:30pm.
State witnesses: Frank on direct: 13) Courtney Ross, girlfriend of Floyd's at the time of his death. Met while Floyd worked as a security guard at the Salvation Army about 3 yrs ago. Cross by Nelson. And re-direct. Eldridge on direct: 14) Seth Bravinder, paramedic. Showed 2 clips: first from Lane’s body cam & second from a witness video moving Floyd into ambulance. Showed pix of Lucas device on Floyd. Exhibit #63 Lucas device. Exhibit #67 of paramedics & firefighters moving Floyd at the hospital. Cross by Nelson. Re-direct. 15) Derek Smith, paramedic. Cross by Nelson & re-direct. 16) Jeremy Norton, Fire Captain w/MN Fire dept. Ex. #58 shown of fire truck on scene & Captain stepped out. Cross by Nelson. And re-direct. Schleicher on direct: 17) Sgt. David Pleoger, supervisor for whole precinct & Chauvin’s police supervisor. He is who the 911 dispatcher called. Cross by Nelson. At this point Judge excused the jurors. Voir dire of “use of force” & jurors back in & re-direct. Exhibits used today reference post #578 here:
MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #7 - Chauvin Trial Day 4. They'll resume at 9:15 am tomorrow. Trial continues on 4/2/21 & will recess about 12:30pm for the weekend.
*Charged (7/22/20) with 6 counts of aiding & abetting taxes-false or fraudulent returns-filed with commissioner & 3 counts aiding & abetting taxes-failure to file return, report, document. – Omnibus hearing on 6/30/21.