MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #17

[cGorg]

Not sure if this helps or not...from my post #573, Thread #5, 8-24-2013. I was trying to understand the timeline and sequencing of events....

I think I have a little more clarity on the synopsis:

9:00-9:15- Smokey barks, DR sees a dark blue(or black) car drive thru the farmstead
9:15- Abduction occurs
9:32- Merle's 911 call to police
9:40- Police arrive at Wetterling house. I'm thinking here that it does take some time for LE to download the information from the boys before proceeding to abduction site)
9:45-10-Kevin + girlfriend(and friends hear scanner + see police cars go by). Since they live relatively close(not verified yet) they make it to the abduction site prior to LE, drive ALL the way through DR's farmstead driveway. Smokey does not bark(explanation anywhere for this?) Kevin drives to Tom Thumb, sees 'medical cop', then notices LE squad car at Cotton Dentist office, talks to him, cop says 'we know about the bikes'
10:00- DR goes to bed
10:05-10:20(I don't have any info on this) Since Merle's 911 call was at 9:32 and lasted several minutes, he then called Jerry + Patty in Clearwater. So I would assume the earliest they could be getting into their car would be 9:40. 25-30 minute drive puts arrival at 10:10. However, according to the Saint Autumn blog quoting Patty as saying they met a squad car on their road and the police escorted them to their house. I am wondering if LE waited at the Wetterling house before proceeding to the abduction site.
10:20-11:23- no info on what's happening in this time frame
11:23- Smokey barks, DR places 911 call regarding people searching the woodpile
So my point is: seems a plausible scenario. Kevin arrived at the abduction site first as LE was at the Wetterlings. Kevin sees the 'medical cop'(whom I cannot explain) and also sees the 'new cop' parked at dentist's office. Is this the cop that met the Wetterlings on the road before proceeding to their house? If so, Kevin, the police, and the Wetterlings did not cross paths going to and fro. My questions:

1. Why did Smokey not bark when Kevin's car drove all the way through the driveway?
2. Why was there not a police officer at the abduction site when Kevin arrived there? Were they short of officers? Or did Kevin get there too quickly?
3. When did the helicopters arrive?
4. DR's comment about being 100% sure that the tan car that went through his driveway in the afternoon being the perp: what is the logic here? is there any connection of this tan car to the abduction scenario?
5. is it possible that a statement or statements within what's been stated is not true?

 

[human]

I am not sure why the ANGER re what I posted that DR stated re the horses. Those are HIS words about Saturday.

Here is the timeline. You will see that the horses searched STARTING ONE MILE EAST of St. Joe.

The discussion was referenced to when the horses were in the driveway and wrecked the prints. If we cannot believe the version by DR......

Here is the timeline.

http://globegazette.com/jacob-wette...cle_2b0e6832-84d0-11df-85ff-001cc4c03286.html

Oct. 26, 1989: At 11:30 a.m. about 30 horses and riders from at least five southern Minnesota counties form a volunteer posse and begin searching one mile east of St. Joseph. About 50 officers, including at least 20 FBI agents, sift through hundreds of tips.

 

[human]

Not sure if this helps or not...from my post #573, Thread #5, 8-24-2013. I was trying to understand the timeline and sequencing of events....

I think I have a little more clarity on the synopsis:

9:00-9:15- Smokey barks, DR sees a dark blue(or black) car drive thru the farmstead
9:15- Abduction occurs
9:32- Merle's 911 call to police
9:40- Police arrive at Wetterling house. I'm thinking here that it does take some time for LE to download the information from the boys before proceeding to abduction site)
9:45-10-Kevin + girlfriend(and friends hear scanner + see police cars go by). Since they live relatively close(not verified yet) they make it to the abduction site prior to LE, drive ALL the way through DR's farmstead driveway. Smokey does not bark(explanation anywhere for this?) Kevin drives to Tom Thumb, sees 'medical cop', then notices LE squad car at Cotton Dentist office, talks to him, cop says 'we know about the bikes'
10:00- DR goes to bed
10:05-10:20(I don't have any info on this) Since Merle's 911 call was at 9:32 and lasted several minutes, he then called Jerry + Patty in Clearwater. So I would assume the earliest they could be getting into their car would be 9:40. 25-30 minute drive puts arrival at 10:10. However, according to the Saint Autumn blog quoting Patty as saying they met a squad car on their road and the police escorted them to their house. I am wondering if LE waited at the Wetterling house before proceeding to the abduction site.
10:20-11:23- no info on what's happening in this time frame
11:23- Smokey barks, DR places 911 call regarding people searching the woodpile
So my point is: seems a plausible scenario. Kevin arrived at the abduction site first as LE was at the Wetterlings. Kevin sees the 'medical cop'(whom I cannot explain) and also sees the 'new cop' parked at dentist's office. Is this the cop that met the Wetterlings on the road before proceeding to their house? If so, Kevin, the police, and the Wetterlings did not cross paths going to and fro. My questions:

1. Why did Smokey not bark when Kevin's car drove all the way through the driveway?
2. Why was there not a police officer at the abduction site when Kevin arrived there? Were they short of officers? Or did Kevin get there too quickly?
3. When did the helicopters arrive?
4. DR's comment about being 100% sure that the tan car that went through his driveway in the afternoon being the perp: what is the logic here? is there any connection of this tan car to the abduction scenario?
5. is it possible that a statement or statements within what's been stated is not true?

When do you think they figured out where the abduction site was?

As far as the cop saying they know about the bikes, the cop may have been dismissive of someone who thinks they have a " hot flash."

I do not understand where the info about the scanner and Kevin and Tom Thumb comes from?

Did Kevin go into the Thumb? I never heard that.

 

[livstabler]

I do not understand where the info about the scanner and Kevin and Tom Thumb comes from?

Did Kevin go into the Thumb? I never heard that.

http://www.joybaker.com/?s=Kevin

 

[livstabler]

Not sure if this helps or not...from my post #573, Thread #5, 8-24-2013. I was trying to understand the timeline and sequencing of events....

3. When did the helicopters arrive?

https://www.facebook.com/searchingforjacob/posts/1572244173029433

 

[human]

I can't access Joy's blog. Does it say Kevin went to Tom Thumb, inside?

Does it say that the scanner talked about the Thumb?

 

[livstabler]

I can't access Joy's blog. Does it say Kevin went to Tom Thumb, inside?

Does it say that the scanner talked about the Thumb?

yes to both

 

[Sasquatch321]

LE did not question DR or search his house and buildings the night of the abduction. A half mile away, they knocked on Tinners door though. What sense does this make?

 

[shergal]

When do you think they figured out where the abduction site was?

As far as the cop saying they know about the bikes, the cop may have been dismissive of someone who thinks they have a " hot flash."

I do not understand where the info about the scanner and Kevin and Tom Thumb comes from?

Did Kevin go into the Thumb? I never heard that.

On your first question, I think they had a vague idea where the abduction area was because it was stated in the 911 call, but they probably wanted to talk to the boys first and get more details.

From the book It Can’t Happen Here, pg. 16:
(Dispatch relays info over scanner: "no vehicle was seen, party approached them on foot, was riding bike, not known where bicycle is at this time. He made contact with individual approximately one-half mile south of Dr. Cotton’s dental clinic on 91st Avenue)”

 

[chaplain1]

Big kudis to 777 for learning so much about the case on her own from Texas!

Are you planning on writing a book?

 

[chaplain1]

LE did not question DR or search his house and buildings the night of the abduction. A half mile away, they knocked on Tinners door though. What sense does this make?

This does not make sense to me either.

 

[shergal]

This does not make sense to me either.

It could just be that because DR had called 911 and walked up to the road (away from his house) to talk to LE, and then offered to search, that they figured they didn't need to search his house. It is really strange they searched everyone else's though.

 

[StinkSprings]

Passing the blame for your incorrect information onto DR? If you're going to take his word than you should take it for everything.

I am not sure why the ANGER re what I posted that DR stated re the horses. Those are HIS words about Saturday.

Here is the timeline. You will see that the horses searched STARTING ONE MILE EAST of St. Joe.

The discussion was referenced to when the horses were in the driveway and wrecked the prints. If we cannot believe the version by DR......

Here is the timeline.

http://globegazette.com/jacob-wette...cle_2b0e6832-84d0-11df-85ff-001cc4c03286.html

Oct. 26, 1989: At 11:30 a.m. about 30 horses and riders from at least five southern Minnesota counties form a volunteer posse and begin searching one mile east of St. Joseph. About 50 officers, including at least 20 FBI agents, sift through hundreds of tips.

 

[777]

The subjects scent can be contaminated by too many other people moving around in the scent field, by auto exhaust, other animal scents and chemical fumes. We can rule out the chemical fumes for the most part, as well as auto exhaust. Bloodhounds would most likely be able to detect the imprinted scent as long as not too many people had walked around in it. It really depends on the bloodhounds. We have a guy here in PA who's bloodhounds would keep on the scent, even when there were major attempts to contaminate it (fox urine etc...). So...it depends on the breed of dog, training, experience and handler.

That's great info, Tracker MANY thanks.

Now, does anyone know of evidence that has been made public suggesting the dogs lost the scent at the same place Jacob's foot prints disappear? Or is there no publicly known relationship between the disappearance of the scent and footprints in terms of their physical location on the driveway?

Truthfully, if Kevin came forward to the public, and stated he was the one who drove over the crime scene, that what he did was due to youthful stupidity, I think the public could accept this better than Kevin staying hidden. What purpose does it serve for him to not come forward?

1. Kevin was obviously at the crime scene that night.

2. But this fact is the only part of Kevin's story that I'm willing to accept without question. As to anywhere else he was at that night, and especially the timing of his movements....that seems to me in some doubt because there is no record of him talking to the cop at the dental office and no record of his conversation with the clerk at the Tom Thumb and of course no record of the 'medical cop'. DR further denies seeing Kevin's car (see my car discussion in response to cCorg in the next post) turn around in his driveway.

3. As to Kevin's explanation that he ends up in DR's driveway while responding to overheard scanner traffic of a crime at the Tom Thumb --- that is just too much for me to believe.

4. To me, it seems clear Kevin feels compelled to explain his reason for being at the crime scene. Yet, at the same time, in the immediate aftermath of the abduction he is scared of becoming a suspect (his own words). So for some reason his reason for being at the crime scene is suspicious, even to him. His reason for being at the crime scene may not be the scanner reason he gave and it may not be because he was involved in the crime.

What else could explain how Kevin tours through DR's property that night besides the fanciful claim that he heard something happening at the Tom Thumb?????

{{{PURE SPECULATION BEGINS HERE}}}​

1. Kevin does hear the scanner traffic as he claims while finishing dinner. He proceeds to the general vicinity of Del Win Ballroom as he claims, possibly also to the Tom Thumb (which he denies even though that was mentioned in the scanner.) Up to now, he has every reasonable reason to be where he is. But after this, nothing in his story makes sense. Conveniently, this is also when the last witnesses who can verify Kevin's and his GF's whereabouts go back home. What could happen at this point to get him to go to DR's driveway and the crime scene?

Does he see something? Does he hear something on a car scanner? Does he hear something said to him in person? Does he talk to persons unknown that lead him to DR's? Does he see persons unknown that cause him to go to DR's? Does he feel like drinking a beer or smoking a joint and therefore goes to the old party spot he admits to Joy he used in the 1980s? WHAT IS IT that causes him to go down 91st Street and to DR's at this point???? What is it that he wants to conceal that is the real reason for going to 91st and/or DR's farm this night?

OR

2. Kevin hears the scanner, etc... goes to Del Win, drives down 91st street, ...but somewhere along this way he sees something that scares the s**t out of him. Maybe he sees someone he recognizes. Or he sees a car he recognizes. Or he sees people running in the woods or down the road. Or he sees someone on DR's property other than DR. Or he hears a gunshot or tires squeel. Or he sees a car in this vicinity tonight with a boy on board that he later realizes is Jacob. Or he sees something or someone this night and is actually warned off! What might have Kevin SEEN that he wants to hide so much that he comes up with this fantastic scanner story for explaining his movements?

What I'm getting at here is that to me it seems there is every possibility Kevin (and especially his girlfriend) see or hear something this night that makes them fear for their lives. This explains their 14 year silence, this explains the absurd scanner story and this explains why, according to Joy's blog, Kevin's girlfriend is still not willing to discuss this night with anyone.

{{{THE PURE SPECULATION PORTION OF THIS POST IS NOW CONCLUDED}}}​

777

 

[Jennifermn]

This is my first post, but I have been following Joy's blog for a while now. I am two-years younger than Jacob, and have lived in Minnesota my whole life. His story has always been with me, though, I never followed much of the details of the investigation when I was younger. The more I read, the more sick I feel and just want more than anything for Jacob's family to have closure.

I find 777's posts to be very thought provoking, both on this website and Joy's blog. I am in agreement that Kevin's story just doesn't seem to add up, though I can't figure out what it might mean. In my opinion, it doesn't add up that he's Jacob's abductor either. Unless the story on Joy's blog is all a lie, and he wasn't with his brother, girlfriend, etc. But I have to imagine the police checked this out. Also Kevin seems kind of young in 1989, but I am no expert. From my knowledge, most sexual predators (that would go so far as to kidnap a child) tend to be older and start out with smaller crimes, escalating over time. But I know there are cases to the contrary as well.

I also wonder why he would come forward if he is guilty? From what I understand he was never even looked at. Why put yourself at risk of becoming a POI? Is this typical behavior for someone guilty of this sort of thing?

Also, I apologize if this has already been covered - I can't seem to search web sleuths due to some restrictions. Just googling who the suspects in Jacob's case have been I ran across this: https://caoutchouc212.wordpress.com/2014/06/22/composite-comparison-of-christoffherson/

Has anyone heard of this person? I haven't seen his name pop up on Joy's blog, and can't find out much else through googling for more information. <modsnip>

 

[human]

Passing the blame for your incorrect information onto DR? If you're going to take his word than you should take it for everything.

Um,he said it. What blame is being placed? The question was posed about when the horses came and oblitierated the prints. If people choose to disregard what DR says, then that is their choice. I don't get it.

But I fell into the trap. I provide the resource and people want to rip it to shreds. I eneded up playing someone's game once again.

Either WE ALL believe what he says or WE ALLpick and choose,

 

[777]

Not sure if this helps or not...from my post #573, Thread #5, 8-24-2013. I was trying to understand the timeline and sequencing of events....

I think I have a little more clarity on the synopsis:
...
1. Why did Smokey not bark when Kevin's car drove all the way through the driveway?
2. Why was there not a police officer at the abduction site when Kevin arrived there? Were they short of officers? Or did Kevin get there too quickly?
3. When did the helicopters arrive?
4. DR's comment about being 100% sure that the tan car that went through his driveway in the afternoon being the perp: what is the logic here? is there any connection of this tan car to the abduction scenario?
5. is it possible that a statement or statements within what's been stated is not true?

Your question number 1 interrogates a huge issue:
Precisely how many cars were in DR's driveway on Sunday and who was driving them?

1. the tan Monte Carlo type vehicle DR feels certain is a big clue
2. the abductor's car, if any
3. Kevin's car, if his story is true
4. the possibility DR himself drove a car on his driveway that day

Obviously the key to solving this crime could very well be discovered by pinpointing exactly the vehicle traffic.

.
.
.
I've read comments from DR addressing the dog (possibly) not barking if Kevin drove around the driveway. Remember, in the cops new version of events, the car DR saw drive around his driveway was Kevin's. I have seen DR talk about this in Joy's blog or perhaps in the Q&A he kind of took in the comments section of a later news story about him. I'm still trying to find it, but maybe someone else knows where it is, and I will post it when I find it. But, basically DR says that ocassional barking is not enough to get him out of bed and that he got out of bed and discovered the cops at the woodpile with flashlights because the dog was going berserk and wouldn't let up.

Between DR, Kevin and the cops ... someone is wrong or lying about the cars in the driveway this night. IMO.



777

 

[777]

I am not sure why the ANGER re what I posted that DR stated re the horses. .

I don't know if this is addressed to me, but I am certainly not angry. You have decided DR is guilty, which if of course fine with me, I'm sure you have your reasons, but its unclear how much of your reasons are based on assumptions.

For example, it's unclear why you discount the evidence in DR's favor (boys describing a gravelly, smokers voice, loss of scent by the dogs, his complete cooperation with the cops (never requiring a warrant for searches, participating in hypnosis, providing DNA), his complete access to groom-able children through his work which according to the FBI does not match the profile of a person who uses guns and quick snatch abductions), AND his continued employment in a school environment when certainly his employer has reviewed this situation in great detail. Why is all this discounted?

I can't find any evidence of DR's guilt except of course the fact that the crime happened on his property and he was at home that night - which is a pretty big deal and I don't want to clear him until more evidence appears. But I don't want to accuse him without more evidence, and I find none. His actions, whereabouts and story all seem consistent and reasonable to me.

1. It's not apparent that DR gives two versions of his activities that night. He gave one version and Trish edited and spliced this version into Kevin's story for sensationalism. They edited out DR's response to what he had in his car on the way to work, they seemingly also edited out his search of the outbuildings and speaking to the cops.

2. There is no problem with DR and the horses. The article Stink quoted and DR's discussion of horses are not in conflict. The horses came on Wednesday. On Saturday DR is wondering if the cops are competent because horses are destroying the tire track evidence. No conflict.

3. Is there anything else you think is evidence of DR's guilt?



777

 

[nmogren]

I think someone (tracker? ELOC?) mentioned that helicopters flying low over DRs could have also washed Jacobs scent away at a certain location where the dogs lost the scent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[777]

Big kudis to 777 for learning so much about the case on her own from Texas!

Are you planning on writing a book?

Thanks, no book from me and ELOC's seems very competent.
However, if the unknown subject is discovered - that would make a book.

This does not make sense to me either.

Of course it doesn't make sense that DR's house is not at least given a look-through by the cops. My explanation is that they were pretty certain from day one of two things:
1. the abductor used a vehicle
2. the abductor is local to the neighborhood or at least has a "normal" reason to be in the neighborhood
They likely had evidence from that very night that pointed them towards these conclusions and immediately caused them to look elsewhere than DR. What might give them the idea DR is not involved?

It could just be that because DR had called 911 and walked up to the road (away from his house) to talk to LE, and then offered to search, that they figured they didn't need to search his house. It is really strange they searched everyone else's though.

The cops seem pretty certain DR is not involved that first night. Why?

. I find 777's posts to be very thought provoking, both on this website and Joy's blog. I am in agreement that Kevin's story just doesn't seem to add up, though I can't figure out what it might mean. In my opinion, it doesn't add up that he's Jacob's abductor either.
Just googling who the suspects in Jacob's case have been I ran across this: https://caoutchouc212.wordpress.com/2014/06/22/composite-comparison-of-christoffherson/
.

Two main scenarios are proposed by Joy and Eloc (who wrote the book It Can't Happen Here):

1. the abductor saw Jacob and the boys at the Tom Thumb and decided to abduct them, OR,
2. the abductor saw Jacob and the boys on their journey up 91st street and decided to abudct them.

.................................only Kevin admittedly puts himself in both locations this night.......................................

However, like you, while I find Kevin's story preposterous, I don't think he did the crime. He may in some way have learned something about the crime that he is now desperately trying to hide, which is why he was silent for 14 years. Did he see something? Hear something? Was he told something? Was he and his GF told to keep quiet? And most of all, what is the real reason he is on 91st Street and in DR's driveway that night - because the scanner story about Tom Thumb just doesn't fly.

Thanks for the outside link, that's very interesting!


777