MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #17

[Jbrown324320]

LE should release information on why suspects were cleared or included. Otherwise, everything and everyone should still be considered. In my opinion, Kevin and DR are both hiding something. Mossad, where should we look?

 

[Wisdom]

I don't know if this is addressed to me, but I am certainly not angry. You have decided DR is guilty, which if of course fine with me, I'm sure you have your reasons, but its unclear how much of your reasons are based on assumptions.

For example, it's unclear why you discount the evidence in DR's favor (boys describing a gravelly, smokers voice, loss of scent by the dogs, his complete cooperation with the cops (never requiring a warrant for searches, participating in hypnosis, providing DNA), his complete access to groom-able children through his work which according to the FBI does not match the profile of a person who uses guns and quick snatch abductions), AND his continued employment in a school environment when certainly his employer has reviewed this situation in great detail. Why is all this discounted?

I can't find any evidence of DR's guilt except of course the fact that the crime happened on his property and he was at home that night - which is a pretty big deal and I don't want to clear him until more evidence appears. But I don't want to accuse him without more evidence, and I find none. His actions, whereabouts and story all seem consistent and reasonable to me.

1. It's not apparent that DR gives two versions of his activities that night. He gave one version and Trish edited and spliced this version into Kevin's story for sensationalism. They edited out DR's response to what he had in his car on the way to work, they seemingly also edited out his search of the outbuildings and speaking to the cops.

2. There is no problem with DR and the horses. The article Stink quoted and DR's discussion of horses are not in conflict. The horses came on Wednesday. On Saturday DR is wondering if the cops are competent because horses are destroying the tire track evidence. No conflict.

3. Is there anything else you think is evidence of DR's guilt?



777

Actual evidence of DR being guilty- no. If we had that he’d be enjoying his free cable tv in his orange striped jumpsuit. Common sense reasoning of the strong possibility of his guilt- yes. Here are just a few. Any others….please feel free to add.

Only named POI by LE

Told Patty that the abductor could’ve buried a body in their gravel pit….but the abductor was supposedly the driver of the Monte Carlo from the afternoon that sped thru his driveway

No alibi

Strong knowledge and stood confidently on the crime scene knowing no one would be coming down the driveway in either direction… given how dark it was…like pointing to the woods that he told the kids to run towards etc

Home alone during and at the place of the abduction

Mask was used.. most likely confirming the perp was very local

He stated Kevin wasn’t responsible for the abduction…only one way to know that

Has a voice that sounds like he has a cold—which is what was confirmed the perp sounded like

DR placed himself at the abduction site ( his mailbox ). He didn’t need to do that since it’s obvious that he or a family member would get their mail. This is one of the most important clues in my opinion.

DR called 911 supposedly scared of people possibly stealing his wood. Scared of people stealing wood but after talking to officer Bechtold he’s all of a sudden brave enough to offer to search his outbuildings with only a flashlight… in the dark… by himself for a possible armed perp that just committed an abduction…I don’t think so unless he knew he wasn’t going to run into the perp for some reason.

DR stated that he didn’t want to waste his time helping out early on but later on he was found to have newspaper clippings and videos regarding the case.

DR is the witness that placed several vehicles on his driveway that day…but not in a timely fashion of course….only after he figured out they could be looking at him as a possible suspect. He stated that he was 100% convinced that the afternoon car driver of the Monte Carlo was the kidnapper. This doesn’t make any sense what so ever for many reasons but the most obvious is that this was a crime of opportunity and the boys decided to go to TT at the last minute.

DR lifting up the crime scene tape and walking thru it. This was smart and very intentional in my opinion to help complicate the crime scene and he probably did it wearing the same shoes he had on to get his mail the previous day.

Late on my part...but by the way...welcome to Websleuths 777

And if anyone agrees please feel free to let me know I "nailed" it

 

[Shay]

Waite Park is a trailer park, not a town? There are other associated people that lived in Waite Park as well including R sib

There is a trailer park on the west side of Waite Park

 

[Mossad]

Recently I was speaking to someone from New London regarding this case. They stated that DAH's mother lived in Waite Park for a while (around the time of the JW abduction.) I had never heard that before! According to her obit, she did work in St. Cloud as a laundress at some point. Has this ever been brought up? Waite Park (trailer park by Home Depot) would be only a few miles from the abduction site.

Indeed, Time waits for no one, and concerned locals (including those in New London) should pay careful attention to the Silver Leaf Group’s proposed project, which was approved for land use change and tax-increment financing by the Waite Park City Council in May 2015. Last month, council members also approved a relocation services agreement between Silver Leaf and residents of the Tri-County Mobile Home Park, which recently sold for $1.5M.

When buildings are moved and ground is broken on this site, what might be found and what might be forever lost to unstoppable progress and the constantly moving hands of time?

You won’t unearth and learn the relevancy of such developments in blogs, facebook, old newspapers, or this quarrelsome forum. You must undertake real research.

If you cannot comprehend the importance of such events and how they directly relate to the Jacob Wetterling case, then this is NOT FOR YOU, and never was for you . . .




Prov. 11:14

 

[thenotebook]

Joy cleared Kevin too. She is a local blogger, interested in the case. I believe she stopped posting on here though

<modsnip>
Again, Joy is an amateur just like the rest of us. She probably met Kevin for 2 hours and had a conversation and he has his story down pat by now. 10+ years after he 'came forward' to LE.

 

[bucshunter]

Not nailed

 

[777]

Im not a car guy, but isnt a grand prix(kevin car), a pontiac.and a monte carlo(chevy)seen in DR driveway, the same car?

Indeed.

I'm not sure how much of a car historian you are or if you're old enough to have remembered this era, so apologies if I'm telling you what you already know. GM had what in the long term turned out to be a disastrous habit of using the same small number of what they called "platforms" across all their brands such that eventually there was not much difference between, say, a Chevrolet Caprice Classic and an Oldmobile 88 and a Pontiac Bonneville. All their models based on the same platform looked alike, even across different brands.

The Monte Carlo and the Grand Prix of this era shared the same platform, they were the "G" series of cars, later for no reason re-designated the "A" series. You can google these and read wiki articles about them, if interested. In essence, anyone who was familiar with say a Monte Carlo might easily call any GM G/A platform car "a Monte Carlo", even if in reality it was in fact a Grand Prix, an Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme or a Buick Regal.

He is all the things a suspect could be. Local, had a car, and was AT THE CRIME SCENE. His story can not be true. He is the most compelling suspect we have with the info we have. ...Down a dead end st. Why? Doesnt make sense.On a side note...

Exactly.

If you believe Websleuths and the online community is a useful way to solve crimes, and I do, it is with this evidence that you start. If others believe we shouldn't second guess the cops or victim family members or other bloggers or potential suspects themselves, I am not sure why they would participate in this board if their constant retort is going to be, "the cops already looked at this/they have more evidence than us/accept what they say without question."

The primary basis of this board is that the crime is unsolved. Therefore the cops have inherently failed their objective regardless of how much information they have. Whether their failure is due to mistakes, disorganization, getting overwhelmed, incompetence, lack of resources, lack of training, disinterest, political considerations, etc. is not really our best focus, we should start with the facts we have and work from there - in my view.
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My basic feel on Kevin is that he has come out with a story that answers any evidence (such as witness testimony, tire tracks) of him being in all the same places the abductor would likely be. The story is ridiculous. But, I don't think he's the criminal here, so why do you think he using deception?


777

 

[777]

DR also cleared him. If anyone should be looking for a suspect, it's DR.

I respect your point of view but I think it contradicts the effectiveness of online sleuthing to imply we should accept some outside authority's acceptance or rejection of a suspect. If the outside authority, whether the cops, DR or whoever were always right the case would be solved by now.

DR cannot 'clear him'. He's not LE. ....

All of us amateurs online have been able to poke major holes in Kevin's story. It's hard to believe that LE wrote him off so quickly. I sure wish they would revisit him.

Totally agree, thank you.

I would add that having the cops "clear him" (or clear anyone) should have no effect on our approach. If people just want to accept LE's judgment and efforts as the best and udeniable truth, I say they should find a forum or charity that cheerleads cops and does not seek an independent investigation.

Clearly Kevin is hiding something. But what? One theory I've been tinkering with in my mind is that Kevin admitted something so embarrassing to the cops/DR/Joy that they then are allowing him to float his preposterous version of events in public because whatever he admitted explains his bizarre driving this night yet clears him from crime.

If Kevin's route is of interest, DR has the same one.
.... In a cloud of dust, the car made a fast, 180-degree left hand turn-around near the farm buildings, and then sped back out the driveway toward 91st Avenue. He described the car as similar to a 1970's Chevrolet Monte Carlo. Rassier said he had never seen anything like that on his family farm before. The man behind the wheel of that car was driving “like his life depended it.”
.l.
... He said he ran through his family farm field on a path that led to the Del-Win Ballroom, where the polka festival was going on. From there, he headed west to 91st Avenue and then back south toward home. It was early even- ing by the time Rassier returned from his run. He said he remembered that he picked up the Sunday newspaper by the mailbox and then continued running up his long driveway and returned to his home. He showered, made himself some dinner, and went back to his typing.32

In ELOC's book I noticed three things in DR's and Kevin's stories:

1. they both have an explanation for anyone who saw them that day in the places we'd expect the abductor to be,
2. they both have an inexplicable need to tell everyone they were at the Del Win ballroom that day, and,
3. they both make a point to imply a certain level of accurate timing in the re-telling of their movements: DR mentions the newspaper delivery and Kevin's timing is based on the scanner broadcast, among other references to nominally independent indicators of time.

I question the reason why these two share these 3 points.



777

 

[777]

Joy cleared Kevin too. She is a local blogger, interested in the case. I believe she stopped posting on here though

From what I can see there are two approaches to looking at suspects. You can either outsource your thinking to someone else like the cops or Joy or whoever and repeat what they say ....OR....you can claim the ability to look at the known evidence yourself and form your own questions, assumptions, opinions. Some are happy to entertain new ideas as long as it points in the direction of their favorite suspect, but if it points into someone else they plead with us to stop the inquiry because the cops have already made a ruling on the matter.



777

 

[human]

I like to go with a fact we have. LE names DR POI.

Why?

People have said he is a scapegoat or because he was there.

I want tq know why LE chose a respectable member of the community as POI.

To say Patty gives Kevin a pass is strange. We are talking about her beloved child. I doubt that strong woman would give anyone a pass.

The POI says that Kevin is in the clear. The POI could have focus on Kevin ,but he says Kevin is in the clear.

Joy, who is looking at all kinds of suspects and could break the case, replace Ann Rule and get her dream of writing. Rather, she says Kevin is in the clear.

Kevin and DR. Two mysteries.

 

[chaplain1]

From what I can see there are two approaches to looking at suspects. You can either outsource your thinking to someone else like the cops or Joy or whoever and repeat what they say ....OR....you can claim the ability to look at the known evidence yourself and form your own questions, assumptions, opinions. Some are happy to entertain new ideas as long as it points in the direction of their favorite suspect, but if it points into someone else they plead with us to stop the inquiry because the cops have already made a ruling on the matter.



777

You got me! I am supportive of the police department, esp Sheriff Sanner.

 

[Trino]

You got me! I am supportive of the police department, esp Sheriff Sanner.

Remarkable staying power after all these years. Any idea how many more years you are going to stay this support?

 

[chaplain1]

Remarkable staying power after all these years. Any idea how many more years you are going to stay this support?

Stay this support?

 

[777]

Actual evidence of DR being guilty- no.Here are just a few.

DR should definitely be looked at, but I think your "evidence" is cherry picking against DR while ignoring points that tend to point away from DR.

Only named POI by LE

Although I respect your right to accept other people's judgment automatically because of who they are or their relationship to this case, I do not share this approach. The evidence alone speaks to guilt or innocence, not someone else's opinion about the evidence.

Told Patty that the abductor could’ve buried a body in their gravel pit….but the abductor was supposedly the driver of the Monte Carlo from the afternoon that sped thru his driveway

No contradiction here. The abductor as far as we know could have both driven a Monte Carlo and buried a body in the gravel pit.

No alibi

This is only a reason why we might not clear him right away. But it is not a reason we should suspect him of anything. Most adults in America are single, not having an alibi for your whereabouts on a work night does not in any way imply guilt.

Strong knowledge and stood confidently on the crime scene knowing no one would be coming down the driveway in either direction… given how dark it was…like pointing to the woods that he told the kids to run towards etc

This implies someone local certainly. Or someone with high local knowledge. DR is local. So I agree with you somewhat that since DR is local and this happened on his driveway, he should be studied.

Home alone during and at the place of the abduction

This is just another way to say he doesn't have an alibi.

Mask was used.. most likely confirming the perp was very local

I agree there is a strong implication that the abductor is local and feared he would be recognized or easily described by witnesses.

He stated Kevin wasn’t responsible for the abduction…only one way to know that

No, there are many ways to "know" that Kevin wasn't responsible for the abduction. The cops for instance seem to "know" that Kevin is not responsible for the abduction, Joy seems to "know" and presumably Kevin's family and GF seem to "know" he wasn't responsible for the abduction. Listening to any of these people "who know" Kevin isn't responsible for the abduction causes quite a few people to say categorically Kevin wasn't responsible - there are many people on this very forum who do exactly the same thing.

So saying Kevin wasn't responsible for the abduction does not automatically imply whoever said this is responsible for the abduction.

Has a voice that sounds like he has a cold—which is what was confirmed the perp sounded like

If you think DR sounds like he has a cold, I guess that is as valid an opinion as anyone's. I see the testimony around voice tending to lead away from DR:

At 5:27 Aaron Larson says he will remember the voice for the rest of his life and the memory of this voice is clear:

[video=youtube;plFqsED9IgI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plFqsED9IgI[/video]

I'm aware of the point that on the 911 call the voice is described as having the cold. It is also described as "low" "raspy" or "gravelly":

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/03/us/jacob-wetterling-abductor-the-hunt-johwn-walsh/
http://archive.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=63324
http://www.joybaker.com/2010/10/25/thinking-jacob/

DR placed himself at the abduction site ( his mailbox ). He didn’t need to do that since it’s obvious that he or a family member would get their mail. This is one of the most important clues in my opinion.

That is an interesting clue, yes. I agree DR (and Kevin) seem to have their movements and timing a bit too conveniently precise.

DR called 911 supposedly scared of people possibly stealing his wood. Scared of people stealing wood but after talking to officer Bechtold he’s all of a sudden brave enough to offer to search his outbuildings with only a flashlight… in the dark… by himself for a possible armed perp that just committed an abduction…I don’t think so unless he knew he wasn’t going to run into the perp for some reason.

Ok, that's one way to interpret the willingness to search outbuildings.

DR stated that he didn’t want to waste his time helping out early on but later on he was found to have newspaper clippings and videos regarding the case.

We've talked about this not wanting to help out a page or two ago - he never said that as far as I can see/

As for newspaper clippings and videos, ok, if you think that is suspicious, ok. It certainly suggests he has an interest in this case. Like a lot of people, DR's interest could be helpful, evil or of no meaning whatsoever. To me a clue as to guilt or innocence is strongest when it stands by itself, it ideally should not be meaningful only if tied in with other clues.

His interest in this case is only meaningful in the context of already thinking he is a suspect - it just confirms what you already believe, it is an example of confirmation bias.

DR is the witness that placed several vehicles on his driveway that day…but not in a timely fashion of course….only after he figured out they could be looking at him as a possible suspect. He stated that he was 100% convinced that the afternoon car driver of the Monte Carlo was the kidnapper. This doesn’t make any sense what so ever for many reasons but the most obvious is that this was a crime of opportunity and the boys decided to go to TT at the last minute.

The police were not interested in talking with DR the night of the abduction. When they showed an interest in talking with him, he volunteered the car information, which was less than 24 hours after the crime.

As for your ruling out the car because it was a crime of opportunity - that is a logical fallacy because you are using one unproven point (that it was a crime of opportunity) to eliminate another, unrelated clue - that DR saw a Monte Carlo. I happen to agree it is a crime of opportunity, btw. But, I don't eliminate evidence simply because it doesn't match my pre-determined assumptions. Are you equally willing to make a list of all the clues that tend to point away from DR?

DR lifting up the crime scene tape and walking thru it. This was smart and very intentional in my opinion to help complicate the crime scene and he probably did it wearing the same shoes he had on to get his mail the previous day.

Ok, maybe so. Having one's own footprints in one's driveway is not very meaningful anyway, in my opinion.

Late on my part...but by the way...welcome to Websleuths 777

Thanks for the welcome!

Basically, I agree 100% DR should be looked at, but besides his being in the right place and right time, like Kevin, I don't see anything that particular weighs heavily for or against him. Being in the right place and right time is very big of course. There are attributes of DR that fit with the assumption he is a criminal and aspects that don't, just like for probably all of us to some degree.



777

 

[777]

I like to go with a fact we have. LE names DR POI.

Why?

People have said he is a scapegoat or because he was there.

I want tq know why LE chose a respectable member of the community as POI.

To say Patty gives Kevin a pass is strange. We are talking about her beloved child. I doubt that strong woman would give anyone a pass.

The POI says that Kevin is in the clear. The POI could have focus on Kevin ,but he says Kevin is in the clear.

Joy, who is looking at all kinds of suspects and could break the case, replace Ann Rule and get her dream of writing. Rather, she says Kevin is in the clear.
.

I respect that anyone's point of view can be valuable, but frankly it seems fruitless to try and speculate or assume why all these figures (the cops, the Wetterlings, Joy, DR) came to the conclusion they did about certain suspects or other aspects of the case.

The cops or the Wetterlings have their knowledge, motivations, biases, skills and shortcomings and we have ours. We should stick with our knowledge and abilities and not speculate about theirs - in my view.



777

 

[Sasquatch321]

If Kevin's route is of interest, DR has the same one.

From page 254 of ELOC's book

254

private band lesson with a student that morning, and then he spent most of the rest of his day organizing his record album col- lection by typing information on index cards.

Sometime in the middle of the afternoon on October 22, 1989, Rassier heard something going on outside. He got up and saw a tan colored car speed into his driveway. In a cloud of dust, the car made a fast, 180-degree left hand turn-around near the farm buildings, and then sped back out the driveway toward 91st Avenue. He described the car as similar to a 1970's Chevrolet Monte Carlo. Rassier said he had never seen anything like that on his family farm before. The man behind the wheel of that car was driving &#8220;like his life depended it.&#8221; After watching the car speed through his family farm, he soon returned to organizing his rec- ord collection.31

In the very late afternoon he took a break from his record collection and went for a short run. It was unseasonably warm on that Sunday afternoon in October. He said he ran through his family farm field on a path that led to the Del-Win Ballroom, where the polka festival was going on. From there, he headed west to 91st Avenue and then back south toward home. It was early even- ing by the time Rassier returned from his run. He said he remembered that he picked up the Sunday newspaper by the mailbox and then continued running up his long driveway and returned to his home. He showered, made himself some dinner, and went back to his typing.32

"He said he ran through his family farm field on a path that led to the Del-Win Ballroom, where the polka festival was going on"

I have a theory that DR was up by the mailbox when the boys came by, he ran with them off on the side all the way to the store (aaron hears rustiling in the weeds), and probably using his own trails through the woods. He sees the boys go to tom thumb and knows they're coming back his way. He takes that path he's talking about back to the house, gets disguised, then heads up to the mailbox to play his prank or discipline the boys for being out. I think he's saying this to cover his tracks because they were there, and he may never have ran earlier that day. Does LE have footprint evidence from that trail showing his footprints going to and back from the del win?

 

[Caoutchouc]

"He said he ran through his family farm field on a path that led to the Del-Win Ballroom, where the polka festival was going on"

I have a theory that DR was up by the mailbox when the boys came by, he ran with them off on the side all the way to the store (aaron hears rustiling in the weeds), and probably using his own trails through the woods. He sees the boys go to tom thumb and knows they're coming back his way. He takes that path he's talking about back to the house, gets disguised, then heads up to the mailbox to play his prank or discipline the boys for being out. I think he's saying this to cover his tracks because they were there, and he may never have ran earlier that day. Does LE have footprint evidence from that trail showing his footprints going to and back from the del win?

While I can't deny this could fit, DR really doesn't strike me as the type of guy who goes to get the Sunday paper at 9pm at night

 

[human]

Jacob seems to catch the eye of many people. It seems like Jon Benet Ramsey has more postings and ideas that have a big range.

Valerie Percy seems to keep going as well.

So with Jacob we analyze every nuance to keep his memory alive.

He has not fallen by the wayside like so many missing children on WS.

I know because of learning about sex offenders, whoever did this feels no guilt whatsoever.

 

[Marzipan]

<modsnip>
Again, Joy is an amateur just like the rest of us. She probably met Kevin for 2 hours and had a conversation and he has his story down pat by now. 10+ years after he 'came forward' to LE.

Well, credit where credit is due...none of the rest of us found Kevin. We all pick her blog posts apart because we're sleuthing and being critical, but she's provided content to mull over that we wouldn't have otherwise. She may have not been trained as a journalist, but I think she sure has something going on in the persistance department that this case needed.

 

[StinkSprings]

When did DR go to the Tom Thumb?

If Kevin's route is of interest, DR has the same one.

From page 254 of ELOC's book

254

private band lesson with a student that morning, and then he spent most of the rest of his day organizing his record album col- lection by typing information on index cards.

Sometime in the middle of the afternoon on October 22, 1989, Rassier heard something going on outside. He got up and saw a tan colored car speed into his driveway. In a cloud of dust, the car made a fast, 180-degree left hand turn-around near the farm buildings, and then sped back out the driveway toward 91st Avenue. He described the car as similar to a 1970's Chevrolet Monte Carlo. Rassier said he had never seen anything like that on his family farm before. The man behind the wheel of that car was driving “like his life depended it.” After watching the car speed through his family farm, he soon returned to organizing his rec- ord collection.31

In the very late afternoon he took a break from his record collection and went for a short run. It was unseasonably warm on that Sunday afternoon in October. He said he ran through his family farm field on a path that led to the Del-Win Ballroom, where the polka festival was going on. From there, he headed west to 91st Avenue and then back south toward home. It was early even- ing by the time Rassier returned from his run. He said he remembered that he picked up the Sunday newspaper by the mailbox and then continued running up his long driveway and returned to his home. He showered, made himself some dinner, and went back to his typing.32