MN MN - Joshua Guimond, 20, Collegeville, 9 Nov 2002 - #2

[puzzleworldplanet]

I'm really sorry, this was a mistake about Eric. I don't know half as much of the minutiae about this case as many of you, and am still catching up, so please excuse any mistakes and feel free to correct me.


Just wanted to say as well; I really don't think we should forget and dismiss the fact that there were a series of attempted abductions and, in one case, sexual assault, on students and young men walking alone at night in the area at this time by a group of men. Added to the fact that Josh was talking to strangers online and LE have speculated Josh was exploring his sexuality, I think this is important to take into account. Despite discrepancies in Nick’s version of events which is very suspicious, surely we must consider these attempted abductions etc as being a very likely explanation?

i hear what youre saying and believe me ive constructed 100's of theories in my head,going as far as to read on several monks who could be behind this, most notably bruce wollmering. but it doesnt seem to fit their MO. ive found that in the early 1900s there was a monk who murdered another monk and a monk who was suspected of murdering two young girls,so monks murdering is possible,but i cant quite see a reason why theyd do it

josh was almost certainly in chatrooms but having been on AOL and yahoo back in the day,the chances of speaking to someone in your state would be rare,not only to speak to someone in your state,but to arrange to meet them and for them to then murder you.it just feels a bit far fetched.its not impossible,but back in 2002,meeting people online wasnt really a thnig. joshs usernames strongly hint to being for trolling and trolling definitely existed back then but it just didnt have a name

the 'abductions' on campus are also strange,but no one else vanished.and besides that, this seems an extremely targeted case.i dont think josh was just unlucky and happened to be targeted by some crazed killer who wanted to abduct people.i am not ruling out this theory,but i think the strongest theory we have now is the time inconsistencies, josh possibly making it back to his room, the music playing and the fact nick drove a car in the middle of the night,and lawyered up at the first opportunity. as the detectives said on the netflix docs,'these are details we must consider'

 

[Ciriii57]

i have spent several years at colleges and universities and the swipe card would usually work on the entrance door and once you are through you no longer require the keycard to get into internal rooms.it sounds like maur house was the same from the very limited info i have read onlin

Yep, this is my impression too, and also seems to be the standard of how they work in most campuses across the world. I assume that a key was still required to access the actual dorm/Josh's private room though? (They must have had locks) If this is the case then his keys were there in the room. He had to take the keys and keycard with him to the poker party to get back into is room ergo if the keys were there the logical conclusion is that Josh, or someone else, returned them. This creates a few scenarios:
1) Josh did return to his room and left his keys there
2) Someone else returned the keys to Josh's room
But each scenario then has it's own problems:

• If Josh was in his room and left again, why didn't he take his keys? Possibly he was just meeting someone at the entrance and supposed he wouldn't be leaving Maur House?
• If someone else placed the keys there in order to make it look like Josh had been in his room, then why? What possible reason could they have? Also...whatever the intention was, it failed as the most popular belief was always that he never made it back to his room.
• Did something bad happen actually in Josh's room I doubt it..too risky trying to carry a body through the halls and there was no evidence of foul play in the room.
• How many people had access to Josh's room that night to do this, besides Josh himself?

they said its not unusual for them to have an empty contact lens box if they have ran out of contact lenses....and also all 3 of the people i asked said the following which i found interesitng

BBM-That is a great point that I never considered! It is one of those small pieces of information that we don't have that could really be quite crucial...Were there unused contact lenses found in his room or had he ran out?
I would agree with what your friends also said about the circumstances of wearing them too.
I used to work in an opticians so have some basic knowledge and I would also like to add that the "type" of lense case could be important. Josh can't have been wearing Daily disposable lenses because you don't use a case for them, you just throw them away. Back in 2002 there were really only 2 other options; monthly disposable and hard lenses. They both have different cases but basically if it was monthlies then I agree with you @puzzleworldplanet that it proves nothing because generally people have tonnes of these empty cases lying around. However if it was Hard lenses then they are much more expensive and difficult to manufacture. You just have the 1 set at a time and they're designed to be worn for up to a year and basically if it was these and they weren't in their case, I guarantee they were in his eyes! You wouldn't run out or lose them.
Again...we have no idea!

like why josh went back at 11.06 pm. you'd think his friends would explain that but they never do. the silence from alex and greg is deafening

I had actually considered that he may have gone to swap his glasses for his contacts funnily enough! I read that LE "theorised" that he went back to grab more beers.
I can't understand why they needed to theorise though-why didn't they just ask Greg and Alex? I am sure they would have remembered and I am sure Josh would have told them "Oh I'm just going to grab...." whatever it was!

This case has ALOT if information available, with a pretty good timeline and names of all the major players. But I believe that there are some very small, and possibly overlooked, pieces of information that would break the case and we just don't have them. I also think the friend's timeline from the party is "off" by about 10 minutes.

 

[DarkJodo]

i will need to go back to the podcast and re-listen and see who the tech guy was who looked at joshs computer but my question would be, is there more inforrmation he has got?

Hey. "Tech Guy" here. Just chiming in to say that I am not an actual digital forensics expert, so take whatever I have to say with a grain of salt. I literally had to teach myself the forensic software once I had access to the drive. Also keep in mind that the drive had been in use by the family since 2003, when they got it back from SCSO, so a lot of data has been lost/corrupted. So many recovery attempts has been made on the drive and passed around by different agencies that a lot of data integrity has been lost. The biggest problem we face is because of this, timestamps on files are all over the place and not consistent. A big part of my investigation of the hard drive is nailing down the official timestamps, and it's still something I'm working on today.

 

[puzzleworldplanet]

Yep, this is my impression too, and also seems to be the standard of how they work in most campuses across the world. I assume that a key was still required to access the actual dorm/Josh's private room though? (They must have had locks) If this is the case then his keys were there in the room. He had to take the keys and keycard with him to the poker party to get back into is room ergo if the keys were there the logical conclusion is that Josh, or someone else, returned them. This creates a few scenarios:
1) Josh did return to his room and left his keys there
2) Someone else returned the keys to Josh's room
But each scenario then has it's own problems:

• If Josh was in his room and left again, why didn't he take his keys? Possibly he was just meeting someone at the entrance and supposed he wouldn't be leaving Maur House?
• If someone else placed the keys there in order to make it look like Josh had been in his room, then why? What possible reason could they have? Also...whatever the intention was, it failed as the most popular belief was always that he never made it back to his room.
• Did something bad happen actually in Josh's room I doubt it..too risky trying to carry a body through the halls and there was no evidence of foul play in the room.
• How many people had access to Josh's room that night to do this, besides Josh himself?

i think in order to better answer those questions,id need to see a blueprint of the layout of the dorm.i dont know if one is available since st johns have unfortunately demolished the whole entire st maur house, which makes things difficult for all of us who are from out of state or different places

ive studied many cases involving people who go to extreme lengths to hide evidence, so as you say, if someone placed keys there,it would be to make sheriffs think josh didnt leave campus....which we know he didnt.....at least....not in his own car. in the early days,this was likely why they focused on the lakes so hard

I had actually considered that he may have gone to swap his glasses for his contacts funnily enough! I read that LE "theorised" that he went back to grab more beers.
I can't understand why they needed to theorise though-why didn't they just ask Greg and Alex? I am sure they would have remembered and I am sure Josh would have told them "Oh I'm just going to grab...." whatever it was!

that part makes absolutely no sense to me either.the sheriffs had greg and alex right there...just,you know,ask them why josh suddenly went back to maur house when you were wlaking next to him!

This case has ALOT if information available, with a pretty good timeline and names of all the major players. But I believe that there are some very small, and possibly overlooked, pieces of information that would break the case and we just don't have them. I also think the friend's timeline from the party is "off" by about 10 minutes.

i agree with everything you said.i do feel like those small details are what will solve this,but we just dont have them and thats a bitter pill to swallow

Hey. "Tech Guy" here. Just chiming in to say that I am not an actual digital forensics expert, so take whatever I have to say with a grain of salt. I literally had to teach myself the forensic software once I had access to the drive. Also keep in mind that the drive had been in use by the family since 2003, when they got it back from SCSO, so a lot of data has been lost/corrupted. So many recovery attempts has been made on the drive and passed around by different agencies that a lot of data integrity has been lost. The biggest problem we face is because of this, timestamps on files are all over the place and not consistent. A big part of my investigation of the hard drive is nailing down the official timestamps, and it's still something I'm working on today.

thats such a shame that so much evidence is lost/corrupted.butim glad you are working on it today. are rumors true that simplyvanished podcast will do any more on josh?maybe the only person who knows that is josh newville himself though!!

 

[Ciriii57]

Hey. "Tech Guy" here. Just chiming in to say that I am not an actual digital forensics expert, so take whatever I have to say with a grain of salt. I literally had to teach myself the forensic software once I had access to the drive. Also keep in mind that the drive had been in use by the family since 2003, when they got it back from SCSO, so a lot of data has been lost/corrupted. So many recovery attempts has been made on the drive and passed around by different agencies that a lot of data integrity has been lost. The biggest problem we face is because of this, timestamps on files are all over the place and not consistent. A big part of my investigation of the hard drive is nailing down the official timestamps, and it's still something I'm working on today.

What you did was amazing "tech guy" haha

The timestamp of the music player-the timing of 11.52 to 12.32. Is this reliable, or possibly not? If so, it feels crucial to me.
Secondly-can you tell us something about the keycard system. Do you know how likely that would be to just fail to record something?

And I am REALLY interested; do you think it was Josh back in his room and playing music and watching TV, maybe chatting online (??) ...or do you lean to it being someone else?

And finally-maybe you can't say-but has there been anything intriguing found? Was LE right to conclude that Josh may have been "experimenting sexually"...I forget the exact phrase...based on what was found?

Again....thank you immensely for what you did and please...pop in often

 

[DarkJodo]

What you did was amazing "tech guy" haha

The timestamp of the music player-the timing of 11.52 to 12.32. Is this reliable, or possibly not? If so, it feels crucial to me.
Secondly-can you tell us something about the keycard system. Do you know how likely that would be to just fail to record something?

And I am REALLY interested; do you think it was Josh back in his room and playing music and watching TV, maybe chatting online (??) ...or do you lean to it being someone else?

And finally-maybe you can't say-but has there been anything intriguing found? Was LE right to conclude that Josh may have been "experimenting sexually"...I forget the exact phrase...based on what was found?

Again....thank you immensely for what you did and please...pop in often

I believe the music player cache is an important piece of evidence. It does indeed appear that it was used midnight or later, although the timestamp may not be precise.

Someone would have to know the password to access Josh's computer. We know his friends used his computer in the past to send emails, access internet, use AIM etc. So that somewhat limits who could have access, if not Josh himself.

As for the chatrooms, he primarily used the "Gwen" account that posed as a woman. The exact motive is still unknown.

Keep up the good work. It's nice to see renewed activity in this forum.

 

[DarkJodo]

are rumors true that simplyvanished podcast will do any more on josh?

I can't speak for Simply Vanished, but I can say that Josh N is still very invested in this case.

 

[Ciriii57]

i dont know if one is available since st johns have unfortunately demolished the whole entire st maur house

I just wanted to clarify-was Maur House definitely demolished? I know Metten court was but I didn't think Maur was also? According to the college website Maur house was built in 2001 and is till standing. There are some photos of the rooms and common areas because you can book to stay there for conferences etc.

Maur and Placid Houses | SJU Residential Life and Housing

Maur and Placid Houses. Our two colleges work passionately to create individual learning experiences that meet the goals of each student.

www.csbsju.edu

Saint Maur House

www.csbsju.edu

There is a PDF of the floorplan but I cannot view or download it without a college ID
If this is the same building that Josh lived in then there are some photos of the rooms and common area:

St. Placid / St. Maur | Events and Conferences SJU

St. Placid / St. Maur. Our two colleges work passionately to create individual learning experiences that meet the goals of each student.

www.csbsju.edu

If the description is correct then Josh had his own private room and bathroom on the upper level with a common area and kitchen area below. If he had a private room and bathroom then I have to conclude that he also had a key as well as a key card.

that part makes absolutely no sense to me either.the sheriffs had greg and alex right there...just,you know,ask them why josh suddenly went back to maur house when you were wlaking next to him!

It's insane! Have Alex or Greg ever given any kind of public statement? It seems like I have only ever heard from Katie, Nick and Dana; never his other friends and I would love to. I wonder to what level each of these people stayed in touch after college?

 

[Ciriii57]

I believe the music player cache is an important piece of evidence. It does indeed appear that it was used midnight or later, although the timestamp may not be precise.

Someone would have to know the password to access Josh's computer. We know his friends used his computer in the past to send emails, access internet, use AIM etc. So that somewhat limits who could have access, if not Josh himself.

As for the chatrooms, he primarily used the "Gwen" account that posed as a woman. The exact motive is still unknown.

Keep up the good work. It's nice to see renewed activity in this forum.

Thank you! And I am so glad you're still here and commenting!

I also believe the music is vital! You haven't been able to ascertain what songs were being played at all? as in, was this a favourite song list of his...does anyone know what his taste in music was?

I had not realised that his computer was password protected, that very much narrows down who could access it-if anyone at all, lets not forhet that if he was present when he allowed others to use it, he may not have shared the password with anyone. Though, iirc, Nick did know it, right?

The using a "Gwen" pseudonym in chatrooms to pose as a woman is a very odd one. Did Gwen have a surname/other name associated? Did Josh know anyone called Gwen? I just can't really think of a reason why...catfishing? Trolling? He just doesn't seem the type of guy to do that.
It's even stranger to me as he reported another user's account for a breach of TOS and yet he was breaching them himself by posing as a woman? The whole thing is bizarre.

 

[DarkJodo]

Thank you! And I am so glad you're still here and commenting!

I also believe the music is vital! You haven't been able to ascertain what songs were being played at all? as in, was this a favourite song list of his...does anyone know what his taste in music was?

I had not realised that his computer was password protected, that very much narrows down who could access it-if anyone at all, lets not forhet that if he was present when he allowed others to use it, he may not have shared the password with anyone. Though, iirc, Nick did know it, right?

The using a "Gwen" pseudonym in chatrooms to pose as a woman is a very odd one. Did Gwen have a surname/other name associated? Did Josh know anyone called Gwen? I just can't really think of a reason why...catfishing? Trolling? He just doesn't seem the type of guy to do that.
It's even stranger to me as he reported another user's account for a breach of TOS and yet he was breaching them himself by posing as a woman? The whole thing is bizarre.

- Yes, I am able to see the exact songs that were played, the amount of time each track is played and when the track was skipped. They all seemed to originate from a saved playlist of most of the music he had downloaded on his computer.

- I used "Gwen" for simplicity sake. The full name he used was "GwenGirlBigJugs" and featured a pornographic image of a woman on a couch as his profile pic.

 

[Ciriii57]

Ah Ok, I hadn't read this before. Interesting:

St. Cloud Times from Saint Cloud, Minnesota

Get this St. Cloud Times page for free from Sunday, April 13, 2003 Sunday, April 13, 2003 The search for Josh Guimond St.. Edition of St. Cloud Times

www.newspapers.com

Snipped:

he and a friend spent the early evening of Nov. 9 researching a paper on Alexander Hamilton, according to roommates and a review of his computer. He downloaded several images of Hamilton's writings and also visited Web sites with information about the Minnesota Timberwolves, jobs in Buffalo, movies being shown on St John's Channel 8, the weather and mock trial. Guimond's computer also contained evidence that he did many of the things other normal college student might do. He visited sites that accepted submitted humor, pictures and stories.

He also visited sites displaying *advertiser censored*. He perused personal ads on Yahoo and appeared to create a personal ad of a female that he posted. His roommates were unaware that Guimond had created the personal ad and didn't recognize the picture he posted with it It was a naked, blonde female seated on a black-leather couch, a woman he named Gwen. The creation probably was a joke, Hydukovich said, evidenced by the name he gave her. Hydukovich and Guimond often talked about their admiration for the singer Gwen Stefani.

Guimond also accessed several personal ads on the same Yahoo site. His roommates didn't recognize the people pictured in two of the personals, and it's unclear from the computer whether Guimond communicated with any of the people pictured in the ads or whether anyone communicated with Gwen.

I still find the whole thing really weird. Like...I can understand creating a funny fake account if you're with friends and having a laugh, but doing it alone seems less hilarious somehow! And since no one knew about it, he can't have done it with friends.

I wish we knew when all these things were accessed, at what specific time.

 

[Ciriii57]

- Yes, I am able to see the exact songs that were played, the amount of time each track is played and when the track was skipped. They all seemed to originate from a saved playlist of most of the music he had downloaded on his computer.

- I used "Gwen" for simplicity sake. The full name he used was "GwenGirlBigJugs" and featured a pornographic image of a woman on a couch as his profile pic.

Amazing! Well since it's his downloaded song lists then it makes sense it was him listening to it. One thing that I have wondered about-were all songs skipped or were some played all the way through? Was someone actually "listening" or was someone just skipping through every one?

GwenGirlBigJugs sounds like a joke...but I still find it bizarre--talking to men pretending to be a woman might be funny to a kid with his mates, but to a 20 year old law student? I don't know..maybe I am seeing something when in fact it was just a dumb prank.

And finally, and I understand you may not be able to divulge this, was there any evidence that Josh was experimenting with his sexuality? I have heard it mentioned as a theory put forward as to why he may have met up with a male stranger who caused him harm, but so far I have never seen any definitive evidence that he was other than heterosexual.

 

[puzzleworldplanet]

I just wanted to clarify-was Maur House definitely demolished? I know Metten court was but I didn't think Maur was also?

sorry this is my mistake, thanks for catching it, i meant to say metten ct has been demolished.i had another thought in my mind and typed out the wrong thing!

• Did something bad happen actually in Josh's room I doubt it..too risky trying to carry a body through the halls and there was no evidence of foul play in the room

i actually dont think it would be too difficult to do this and get away with it. a large suitcase would disguise a body.add that to the fact that not many people were even in maur house at the time which means less chance of a witness,and suddenly this seems like a possibility although this implies josh made it back to his dorm.

however,i am torn between either this scenario or the idea of someone in the car park outside st maur house who sees josh returning from the poker party and takes the opportunity to lure him into a vehicle

either way,i am now beginning to think josh was taken away from the st johns campus

 

[DarkJodo]

One thing that I have wondered about-were all songs skipped or were some played all the way through? Was someone actually "listening" or was someone just skipping through every one?

Most were played through in their entirety. Songs that were skipped generally happened a few seconds into the track then skipped. Not many were skipped consecutively. It really looks like someone was listening to music and skipping the tracks that they were not vibing with at the time.

 

[Ciriii57]

Most were played through in their entirety. Songs that were skipped generally happened a few seconds into the track then skipped. Not many were skipped consecutively. It really looks like someone was listening to music and skipping the tracks that they were not vibing with at the time.

Thank you very much! This really does affect my view. The way the songs had been described as being skipped sort of built bigger and bigger in the reports so it makes it sound like someone was just sat skipping through. Too much focus on the skipping and not enough on the listening!

Now I am convinced Josh was in his room, listening to his favourite songs and skipping the ones he wasn't in the mood for, as you said, as well as other activity on his computer, before turning it off and watching TV.

 

[DarkJodo]

as well as other activity on his computer, before turning it off and watching TV.

Just pointing out that the music player was left on playing music until someone turned it off on 11/12/02. There were no tracks that were skipped after the last skip in the early morning of 11/10/02.

 

[puzzleworldplanet]

Now I am convinced Josh was in his room, listening to his favourite songs and skipping the ones he wasn't in the mood for, as you said, as well as other activity on his computer, before turning it off and watching TV.

i do think this couldd be a possibilty! but how does josh get back into his room without swiping in? let in by a roommate? let in by a monk? door wedged open?? if josh did make it back to st maur house,played music,this means that something bad maybe took place in st maur house or outside it...in fact im trying to picture myself as a 'fly on the wall' in this scenario!!

im listening to music.i dont know this but someone is going to try to lure me into a dangerous situation. maybe ive had a confrontation with them, or im about to have a confrontation. but not immediately.theyre not going to come in and punch me or assault me. its loud. its going to be heard. this person is calculated. its not sneaky enough to come in right now. whoever wants me in this dangerous situation is intelligent. theyre going to lure me out of the dorm room by a knock on the door,i open the door and go outside with them...this means they didnt swipe in and i didnt swipe out....no trace of door entry and exit logs... <<<<<<< thats what i think might have happened (my objective opinion of course)

 

[Ciriii57]

however,i am torn between either this scenario or the idea of someone in the car park outside st maur house who sees josh returning from the poker party and takes the opportunity to lure him into a vehicle

either way,i am now beginning to think josh was taken away from the st john campus

I am heavily leaning towards a scenario that has Josh return to his room at about 11.50, put down his keys, wallet (maybe glasses), play his fav songs for 40 minutes, then watch some TV.
At some point after 12.32 he leaves his room, but wasn't planning to leave Maur House which is why he didn't take anything. Either someone was at the main door and he let them in, or someone convinced or forced him to get into their car once he'd opened the door and me them.

I have to say, only Nick fits in this whole scenario. He was unaccounted for between 1/1.30 - 2.42 which fits in very nicely. He had a vehicle, very handy. Also, Josh might have been persuaded to go somewhere with Nick, despite not having his keycard, because Nick will have had his own keycard and could let them back in. If Josh did take his stuff, Nick had the means to return them anyway. Nick also had the opportunity to interfer with Josh’s computer for reasons unknown.
I had originally doubted Nick would be capable of this- but I'm starting to believe he's the only one with means, motive and opportunity.

There's the chance this was someone unknown to us and LE, who Joshbwas acquainted with. But the vast majority of murders are committed by friends and family.

Taking Nick’s subsequent actions (saying something different to 2 other people, layering up and refusing a polygraph) well...

 

[Ciriii57]

Just pointing out that the music player was left on playing music until someone turned it off on 11/12/02. There were no tracks that were skipped after the last skip in the early morning of 11/10/02.

Really? I thought it stopped playing music at 12.32? So that's not the case, it just stopped skipping songs then? So...the music was playing away to itself for 2 days? I wonder if the volume was up? Music playing and TV left on, even weirder.
So no more songs were skipped after 12.32, but the music player continued playing through his song list. I guess it still suggests to me he was listening to music until sometime after 12.32.

 

[puzzleworldplanet]

I am heavily leaning towards a scenario that has Josh return to his room at about 11.50, put down his keys, wallet (maybe glasses), play his fav songs for 40 minutes, then watch some TV.
At some point after 12.32 he leaves his room, but wasn't planning to leave Maur House which is why he didn't take anything. Either someone was at the main door and he let them in, or someone convinced or forced him to get into their car once he'd opened the door and me them.

I have to say, only Nick fits in this whole scenario. He was unaccounted for between 1/1.30 - 2.42 which fits in very nicely. He had a vehicle, very handy. Also, Josh might have been persuaded to go somewhere with Nick, despite not having his keycard, because Nick will have had his own keycard and could let them back in. If Josh did take his stuff, Nick had the means to return them anyway. Nick also had the opportunity to interfer with Josh’s computer for reasons unknown.
I had originally doubted Nick would be capable of this- but I'm starting to believe he's the only one with means, motive and opportunity.

There's the chance this was someone unknown to us and LE, who Joshbwas acquainted with. But the vast majority of murders are committed by friends and family.

Taking Nick’s subsequent actions (saying something different to 2 other people, layering up and refusing a polygraph) well...

i think ive arrived at the same conclusion. if you read my post just above where i put myself in joshs position i said the same thing. no entry/exit logs on the door.this explains why katie said he left at that time.

Really? I thought it stopped playing music at 12.32? So that's not the case, it just stopped skipping songs then? So...the music was playing away to itself for 2 days? I wonder if the volume was up? Music playing and TV left on, even weirder.
So no more songs were skipped after 12.32, but the music player continued playing through his song list. I guess it still suggests to me he was listening to music until sometime after 12.32.

joshs parents didnt arrive until a day or two later i would have to check the date and time they arrived which explains music being left on