MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #11

[danni]

freedom of speach,,here we go again..IMHO.......freedom in itself has went out the window..on one side ya got these people screamin one thing,and on the other ya got some screamin the opisite,,where do ya draw the line..whats right,and what aint..what this country is coming to nowdays is a tragic end as far as i know,,if someone slaps someone else,,the second person can say,"it was a ""hate"" crime" therefore,it is,,according to what i seen on CBS news..cant reemember what day that was..i also heard it on mancow (now thats ghonna cause a ruckus), but anyway,,where are we goin folks?? down hill!!!!it almost makes me wanna go to the amazon and live off the land,,like my grandpa did in the 18 hundreds.
oh yea,danni,,sorry i didnt respond to the "idiot" thing,,that was a good 1,,i didnt get back on till today,,but i would ((well,,maybe)) offer my services,,but my luck,,i wouldnt get bailed out n i'd have to spend my whole life in morgan county jail..or atleast till they kicked me out

First I'm not going to go there as far as freedom of speach. I will undoubtable get myself in trouble! I was being sarcastic when I made the comment I did!

Second, I wasn't trying to insinuate you were an idiot nor do I think that way! Just wanna make that clear!

 

[bigflaw]

someone will be reporting those and they will be gone. Unless Ebay has changed their policies, they do not allow it. Read their policies.

They allow some... based on the intention. If the intention is hate, it's not allowed. Just like inciting a riot is not protected speech.

These are great analogies, actually, so thank you.

In the case of the video (my whole point here), and to stay on topic, this video is protected by free speech.

 

[akashana]

~ ~ ~ Wading in gingerly ~ ~ ~

As offensive and stupid as Alyssa's videos and photos were, I still defend the rights of people to post such items online, with one caveat. This child was a minor, and a very disturbed one at that, who had allegedly been medically diagnosed with behavioral and/or emotional problems. Minors are not guarranteed the same rights and freedoms as adults in our society, with good reason. I don't believe that she should have been permitted unmonitored access to the 'net, or phones with internet capabilities. It appears that she spent waaay too much time online and that no responsible adult was aware of her online activities, including those paid by the state to closely monitor her. There is enough blame to go around in this particular case to color each and every adult and friend with whom she had contact, but as always, after the fact.

But because one Missouri teen slipped through every crack in the system and then some is no reason to strip away any of my rights to free speech. We have to also look to personal responsibility here. We can't just throw out the baby with the bathwater and begin eroding the most basic freedoms upon which our still great country is built.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

Scapa...
this kid was in therapy 2 hours per day....and had been under care of doctors, therapists...

what more can they do??
IF they charged her as a juvie she would have to be released at 21..period

does that seem fair...or even "safe" for society??

She will be 16 in January ...21 is 5 years away

I think it is a good deterent to other kids to see her put away. Already she has "fans"

Please help me report the offensive tribute to Allysa at YouTube..thanks

BBM

I keep seeing this. The question isnt what more cancould they do....
Its obvious that whatever they were doing was NOT working and they should of seen that it wasnt a very long time ago. jno

 

[bigflaw]

~ ~ ~ Wading in gingerly ~ ~ ~

As offensive and stupid as Alyssa's videos and photos were, I still defend the rights of people to post such items online, with one caveat. This child was a minor, and a very disturbed one at that, who had allegedly been medically diagnosed with behavioral and/or emotional problems. Minors are not guarranteed the same rights and freedoms as adults in our society, with good reason. I don't believe that she should have been permitted unmonitored access to the 'net, or phones with internet capabilities. It appears that she spent waaay too much time online and that no responsible adult was aware of her online activities, including those paid by the state to closely monitor her. There is enough blame to go around in this particular case to color each and every adult and friend with whom she had contact, but as always, after the fact.

But because one Missouri teen slipped through every crack in the system and then some is no reason to strip away any of my rights to free speech. We have to also look to personal responsibility here. We can't just throw out the baby with the bathwater and begin eroding the most basic freedoms upon which our still great country is built.

IMO, the only thing I think we can do is start holding parents more accountable for their children's actions. I'm not saying parents can completely control what their children do, but when a 16 year old is out robbing cars at 3am... come on. In Alyssa's case, she was parented by career criminals. That surely contributed to her psychological problems, whether she was raised by them or not. She surely knew about it. Sending kids with parents like this to their GP is almost guaranteed if they are fit, but wouldn't she have had a better life if she was just removed completely from that family and put in a home with responsible parents? I say this because you can't treat a child like this the same as you do other children. They may have been loving, and giving, and caring, but I think we all agree that she had some serious liberties that we would not afford our 15 year-olds knowing that they have these psychological problems.

 

[AndresEscobar]

youtube is a business. Ebay is a business. Ebay does not allow anyone to sell Nazi stuff on Ebay among other things.

youtube can make whatever policies they want as long as they aren't illegal.

I didn't say anything about what YouTube could do, I asked what LE would do. That particular poster wanted to "alert LE" about the sixteen year old in question who posted a video and a paragraph asking people to stop attacking AB.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

That girl is a sociopath. I will always believe that. No amount of love or therapy is ever going to help her. It's to bad that her life was so messed up before her grandparents got her but this girl cannot be repaired...ever. Look at the terrible things that she did before this final act. I think she was just working up to murder. The things that she had already done weren't satisfying her and she wanted to see how it would feel to kill a person next. She didn't give that little girl a thought. She was totally focused on her own needs and wants.

I would like to know why she dug 2 graves? I've never heard anyone one Nancy Grace or Jane V-M even inquire about only one grave being filled and another sitting there waiting. The only logical thing that comes to my mind is that she wasn't finished yet. I wonder who was next?

what was she like Pre-Grandma ? I mean, what did she do (besides all of the suicide attempes).

What was AB like between the ages of being in the womb and 11 (or 13) years old ?

 

[akashana]

BBM

I keep seeing this. The question isnt what more cancould they do....
Its obvious that whatever they were doing was NOT working and they should of seen that it wasnt a very long time ago. jno

It definitely wasn't working - that's a given. It's alleged she had been hospitalized, counseled and probably medicated. People were trying to help her on many levels, yet she remained a very sick young girl. I personally have no idea what else they could have done, but it is hard legally to institutionalize violent adults, let alone 15-year-old high school girls. This case will undoubtedly spawn several lawsuits involving various defendants, but at the end of the day, will assigning guilt change one whit of what occurred one afternoon in Missouri? No, it won't. This girl was a ticking time bomb that was going to detonate someday, somewhere. I would like to believe that it could never happen again, but I am not that naive.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving

Does anyone have any links to publish facts on the "2 hours of therapy a day" AB was supposed to be receiving? I have read so many different stories about the counseling and amount of counseling AB was receiving, that I'd like to get that part straight -- IMO therapy for hurting one's self would be very different fom therapy for homocidal tendencies --- what doc would prescribe prozac to a girl who was fairly vocal about wanting to hurt or kill others?

And why wouldn't these health professionals so involved in a young girl's life not know about her large internet trail? From what I have read about AB sneaking out to a concert 2 hours away, sleeping in the woods overnight without permission, tons of time spent on the internet, time spent on producing videos, never seemingly with an adult in sight, but more importantly nobody seemed to know of AB OR her 7 year old half sister OR Elizabeth's whereabouts for hours the night of the murderI really do not see how there could have been much adult supervision at all, or time for "2 hours of therapy a day" -- and surely this therapist should lose his or her license, IMO!

This is by far the BEST POST of the day !!!!

 

[danni]

IMO, the only thing I think we can do is start holding parents more accountable for their children's actions. I'm not saying parents can completely control what their children do, but when a 16 year old is out robbing cars at 3am... come on. In Alyssa's case, she was parented by career criminals. That surely contributed to her psychological problems, whether she was raised by them or not. She surely knew about it. Sending kids with parents like this to their GP is almost guaranteed if they are fit, but wouldn't she have had a better life if she was just removed completely from that family and put in a home with responsible parents? I say this because you can't treat a child like this the same as you do other children. They may have been loving, and giving, and caring, but I think we all agree that she had some serious liberties that we would not afford our 15 year-olds knowing that they have these psychological problems.

And what do we do with her once we take her away from not only mom and dad, but also grandma and grandpa?

Do we send her to a group home?
Do we send her to a "responsible" foster home?
Do we lock her up for the rest of her life?
Do we removed EVERY troubled teen from their home no matter how hard the parents are trying to "fix" the child because they are not "responsible" enough?
Who pays for all this care once they are removed from their "unresponsible" parents/lives?

ETA: I think in this case no one was watching the kids how did the three kids (alyssa, the sister, and Elizabeth) go unknown for at least a couple hours. Then again was KNP suposed to be watching them and had herself locked in her room instead? There are TONS of questions that could be asked in this case. Which we will probably never get answers too.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

someone will be reporting those and they will be gone. Unless Ebay has changed their policies, they do not allow it. Read their policies.

ive sold for over12 years and the rules have changed here & there alot.

You CAN sell that stuff.

You can NOT sell anything that belongs to anyonewho is a criminal and/or for profit.

And you can NOT sell anything that "shoots" I dont think "shoots" is the right term but its something like that


imo

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

And what do we do with her once we take her away from not only mom and dad, but also grandma and grandpa?

Do we send her to a group home?
Do we send her to a "responsible" foster home?
Do we lock her up for the rest of her life?
Do we removed EVERY troubled teen from their home no matter how hard the parents are trying to "fix" the child because they are not "responsible" enough?
Who pays for all this care once they are removed from their "unresponsible" parents/lives?

ETA: I think in this case no one was watching the kids how did the three kids (alyssa, the sister, and Elizabeth) go unknown for at least a couple hours. Then again was KNP suposed to be watching them and had herself locked in her room instead? There are TONS of questions that could be asked in this case. Which we will probably never get answers too.

In my opinion......AB needs to be locked up for a very long time or forever

IMO.....the MOST IMPORTANT thing that needs to be done is RESEARCH HER MEDS AND THEN find out why she did it ( I personally dont believE her excuse)

JMO

 

[MDATCA]

I wish I could write as well as some of you to put this into words better but I will try.
I know that many are upset about EmoCuppyCake's video and would like to see it removed from YouTube. Although I really don't understand why unless she has changed something about it since she first uploaded it. I only see the same pictures and video clips that are everywhere. There are a few things in her written description that are disturbing. I hope that it is okay that I am quoting her description of the video here. If not I will delete.

"Stop hating on Alyssa Bustamante just because of what she did sure even I agree it is cruelty beyond belief and yes I believe that she does deserve to be trialed as a adult and with first degree murder. I also believe that she should be sentenced to life in prision, but she is also mentally unstable and suffers from depression and anxiety she does deserve to be treated better then how all you people are treating her."

EmoCuppyCake says that she thinks AB deserves to punished with life in prison. IMO she is expressing that she does not like some of the comments that others are making regarding how they would like to see AB punished. I am guessing that she doesn't like the comments like; AB deserves to fry, I hope the other prisoners get to her and other comments like that..

"Not everyone handles there problems the same way which makes us all unique. I mean **** I would love to know what it feels like to kill someone and I am damn sure that lots of you have also considered this thought."

This statement is very frightening. I can't speak for anyone else but I have not had those thoughts. I would even say that not every person who have killed have ever had those thoughts either. Saying "I would LOVE to know... is a strong statement. I sure hope that she just didn't choose her words wisely. Her usage of language seems weak so I sincerely hope that is the case here.

"She may have actually killed 9 year-old Elizabeth Olten but she still is mentally unstable therefore making the trialing more difficult and harder to say if she was fully aware of what she was doing."

The law does not consider levels of insanity. While it is obvious that AB clearly has mental issues what they are remains to be unknown. The courts do not have 60% guilty on reason of being insane 40% of the time and depressed 60% of the time. There is clear evidence that AB planned a murder at least 5 days in advance. She had plenty of time to think about it and seek out help if she wanted to. We don't know if she had it all planned out or if she had dug the graves and waited for the first opportunity.

"I say we need to remember her for who she was and not for what she did cause she is human just like the rest of us. But she shall remain innocent untill proven guilty in my eyes and others."

This is a tough one. On one hand I feel I don't care about how well AB is treated or feels because she sure didn't care how she treated Elizabeth or how she felt. On the other hand I am not a cold hearted, psychopathic/sociopathic insane murderer.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Originally Posted by Bobbisangel
That girl is a sociopath. I will always believe that. No amount of love or therapy is ever going to help her. It's to bad that her life was so messed up before her grandparents got her but this girl cannot be repaired...ever. Look at the terrible things that she did before this final act. I think she was just working up to murder. The things that she had already done weren't satisfying her and she wanted to see how it would feel to kill a person next. She didn't give that little girl a thought. She was totally focused on her own needs and wants.

I would like to know why she dug 2 graves? I've never heard anyone one Nancy Grace or Jane V-M even inquire about only one grave being filled and another sitting there waiting. The only logical thing that comes to my mind is that she wasn't finished yet. I wonder who was next?

BBM

May I ask on what authority you speak the bolded? Are you a Dr?

 

[human]

I think the research shows if a child doesn't get what s/he needs in the first three years of life, then the window of opportunity might be closed to instill trust in that child. Trust that those in his/her environment care enough to answer the child's needs. The child shuts down and no longer cries for his/her needs because no one answers. Children often die-it's called failure to thrive in the worst cases. RAD in other instances. Maybe lots of other things we don't know about.

I don't think anyone has the answer at this time what to do about these issues. More and more brain studies are being done, and it does show some differences in brain scans of those with certain issues. But how to remediate? I don't think anyone knows .

If a child has Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, actual parts of the brain are missing. There are differences in FAS because of when in the child's development the mother was drinking. The physical facial features are not always present. That is called Fetal Alcohol Effect and may be more debilitating to the child.
I don't want to look up supporting documentation, so FWIW.

Religion and philosophers have debated the issues of free will and all of that through the ages. As a society we bear responsibility for a lot of problems that people have. Allowing such disparity between poor and rich. Having huge school classrooms. Lots of things. Racism. The inequality of women.

I can't judge about AB and her place in the universe. But honestly, would anyone here who is defending her so strenuously take her home to live with them?

If you truly wouldn't, then I don't think it's OK to foist her off on some other community.

 

[not_my_kids]

As to the video, I saw it.
My personal take, I may not agree with what the poster of the video says, but I will defend to the death her right to say it. As adults, if we don't like it, we don't look.

I think that AB would have done this to someone at some point, no matter what. It happened to be Elizabeth, but it easily could have been AB's guardians, a school shooting, or her own child at some point in the future.

Maybe people will realize that the alternative lifestyle that AB was involved in is not about just dress and makeup and music.
It's about complete and utter desensitization. It's teenagers that in an attempt to be different have started a subculture that believes that pain is pleasure, death is safety and love is an illusion. AB did what thousands of teens across the country are being told by media and friends that it's okay to do.
People, like AB, that are unstable enough to accept that this is okay because their friends say so need to be locked up. But the subculture is spawning more of them every day, and it needs to be stopped. Not the expression, but the motives behind it.

 

[PAXIMUS]

As to the video, I saw it.
My personal take, I may not agree with what the poster of the video says, but I will defend to the death her right to say it. As adults, if we don't like it, we don't look.

I think that AB would have done this to someone at some point, no matter what. It happened to be Elizabeth, but it easily could have been AB's guardians, a school shooting, or her own child at some point in the future.

Maybe people will realize that the alternative lifestyle that AB was involved in is not about just dress and makeup and music.
It's about complete and utter desensitization. It's teenagers that in an attempt to be different have started a subculture that believes that pain is pleasure, death is safety and love is an illusion. AB did what thousands of teens across the country are being told by media and friends that it's okay to do. People, like AB, that are unstable enough to accept that this is okay because their friends say so need to be locked up. But the subculture is spawning more of them every day, and it needs to be stopped. Not the expression, but the motives behind it.

BBM


I dont care much for the music and lifestyle either but it is best we stick to the facts and that facts are these:

People today are exposed to more violent media than ever before at any time in history, they listen to more violent music, watch more violent films and TV shows, read more violent books and play more violent video games. One would think that because of this there would be more violent crime. One would be wrong also. Violent crime has went down and deceased considerably at the same time more violent media has become available.

Explain that one.

I will note however that violent youth crime has increased among those on SSRI medications. The numbers dont lie. Maybe its not the music but the legal dr prescribed drugs we have our kids on.

 

[AndresEscobar]

BBM


I dont care much for the music and lifestyle either but it is best we stick to the facts and that facts are these:

People today are exposed to more violent media than ever before at any time in history, they listen to more violent music, watch more violent films and TV shows, read more violent books and play more violent video games. One would think that because of this there would be more violent crime. One would be wrong also. Violent crime has went down and deceased considerably at the same time more violent media has become available.

Explain that one.

I will note however that violent youth crime has increased among those on SSRI medications. The numbers dont lie. Maybe its not the music but the legal dr prescribed drugs we have our kids on.

Pax, i think you're about to open Pandora's box here . . .

 

[AndresEscobar]

I wish I could write as well as some of you to put this into words better but I will try.
I know that many are upset about EmoCuppyCake's video and would like to see it removed from YouTube. Although I really don't understand why unless she has changed something about it since she first uploaded it. I only see the same pictures and video clips that are everywhere. There are a few things in her written description that are disturbing. I hope that it is okay that I am quoting her description of the video here. If not I will delete.

(respectfully snipped)

Thank you for actually posting the text. However, remember you're responding to a sixteen year old girl's internet rant. Regarding whether or not AB was criminally insane, this girl has no idea what she's talking about. Regarding the "I'd love to know what it's like to kill someone" statement, I think it's just a poor choice of words and immaturity.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Thank you for actually posting the text. However, remember you're responding to a sixteen year old girl's internet rant. Regarding whether or not AB was criminally insane, this girl has no idea what she's talking about. Regarding the "I'd love to know what it's like to kill someone" statement, I think it's just a poor choice of words and immaturity.

I think on the internet where all fonts are created equal we often forget that sometimes were are dealing with children on here and I see adults say things to kids on the net that they would never say in person. Its mind boggling, this is a 16 year old girl simply expressing her opinion and there are full grown adults on there flaming her and calling her names. Is it really any wonder kids act the way they do these days, all the adults around them have gone fecking mad.