MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #13

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thanks. I hadn't had a chance to look that up but didn't sound right. IF she was going to tried as an adult she deserves adult punishment. Do they have to announce they are going for Dual Jurisdiction or is that automatic in MO?

I personally have no idea about the MO juvenile system, sorry. The current Supreme Court case is Sullivan v. Florida, concerning a LWOP sentence for a 13 year old convicted of rape and assault.

I heard oral arguments on the current case before the Supreme Court, and some of the questions the justices asked were very interesting. At one point Justice Kennedy asked, "Why does a juvenile have a Constitutional right to hope but an adult does not?" I am skeptical that the Court will be able to say its cruel and unusual punishment- seems IMO more of a legislature issue concerning sentencing guidelines.
 
Regarding the "life without parole" for teens

one famous case here was Lionel Tate...and that was one I felt was too harsh...Lionel was 12 years old and "wrestling" with a 6 year old little girl playmate and he killed her...he was also mentally "slow"
they gave him life without parole...and many signed petitions, there were fundraisers and
pro bono lawyers and media media media

they reversed the sentence.....

he got out and had a 2nd chance....

In May of 2005, Tate violated his probation. He was arrested and charged with robbing a pizza deliveryman at gunpoint (as well as being caught by police with a knife in his pocket).

judge then sentenced Tate to 30 years in prison.

~~~~ Bad seed>> maybe....so many people worked and got this kid free...then this

and the fact is, he was 1) only 12 at the time of the murder/manslaughter

2) there was never ever any evidence that he planned to murder the little girl

3) if anything, he was simply stupid...trying to recreate wrestling moves that he liked to watch on tv

Allyssa's case is far different

as for the movement to stop "life without parole" for juveniles...that is ONLY in regards to "non lethal" crimes....

http://free-lionel-tate.blogspot.com/2009/08/life-in-prison-for-criminal-teens.html

Two Florida teens were given life sentences without parole for nonlethal crimes. The top court will consider if the punishments are constitutional.
The US Supreme Court announced Monday that it would take up two cases involving juvenile offenders in Florida who claim their life prison sentences for rape and robbery are cruel and unusual punishment.

One of the defendants was 13 at the time he allegedly raped a 72-year-old woman in Pensacola. The other was 17 when he was charged with participating in a series of robberies.

At issue in these cases is whether the fundamental principles supporting a 2005 Supreme Court decision that declared the death penalty unconstitutional for juveniles should also be applied to life imprisonment sentences meted out to juveniles convicted of nonlethal crimes.
 
If they do use dual Jurisdiction then that gives them a few years to REHAB her the she can put her big girl pants on and do some big girl time for doing a big girl crime.
 
Regarding the "life without parole" for teens

one famous case here was Lionel Tate...and that was one I felt was too harsh...Lionel was 12 years old and "wrestling" with a 6 year old little girl playmate and he killed her...he was also mentally "slow"
they gave him life without parole...and many signed petitions, there were fundraisers and
pro bono lawyers and media media media

they reversed the sentence.....

he got out and had a 2nd chance....

In May of 2005, Tate violated his probation. He was arrested and charged with robbing a pizza deliveryman at gunpoint (as well as being caught by police with a knife in his pocket).

judge then sentenced Tate to 30 years in prison.

~~~~ Bad seed>> maybe....so many people worked and got this kid free...then this

and the fact is, he was 1) only 12 at the time of the murder/manslaughter

2) there was never ever any evidence that he planned to murder the little girl

3) if anything, he was simply stupid...trying to recreate wrestling moves that he liked to watch on tv

Allyssa's case is far different

as for the movement to stop "life without parole" for juveniles...that is ONLY in regards to "non lethal" crimes....

http://free-lionel-tate.blogspot.com/2009/08/life-in-prison-for-criminal-teens.html

Two Florida teens were given life sentences without parole for nonlethal crimes. The top court will consider if the punishments are constitutional.
The US Supreme Court announced Monday that it would take up two cases involving juvenile offenders in Florida who claim their life prison sentences for rape and robbery are cruel and unusual punishment.

One of the defendants was 13 at the time he allegedly raped a 72-year-old woman in Pensacola. The other was 17 when he was charged with participating in a series of robberies.

At issue in these cases is whether the fundamental principles supporting a 2005 Supreme Court decision that declared the death penalty unconstitutional for juveniles should also be applied to life imprisonment sentences meted out to juveniles convicted of nonlethal crimes.

Very good and informative info. Thank you
 
And here is how we "do" it in Florida...this nasty 16 year old just sentenced to life in prison...good :)

I haven't even heard much info on this case...seems like she surely deserves it

http://free-lionel-tate.blogspot.com/2009/08/putnam-girl-16-convicted-of-1st-degree.html

Morgan Leppert will be sentenced to life in prison.

BUNNELL — As reality set in, Morgan Leppert’s sobs echoed through a Flagler County courtroom Thursday afternoon.

The Putnam County teenager will receive an automatic and mandatory life prison sentence after a jury’s first-degree murder verdict. The self-described “redneck cowgirl” will be the youngest girl in Florida’s prison system. She also was convicted of robbery and burglary.

The jury of five men and one woman apparently didn’t buy her childlike appearance and claims that her adult boyfriend, Toby Lowry, directed the robbery and murder of a disabled Melrose man last year. At the time, Leppert was 15 and a runaway from her San Mateo home; Lowry was 22.

“The level of violence that she and Toby Lowry reached, that trumped her age,” Assistant State Attorney Chris France said after the verdict, reached in about 90 minutes.

James Thomas Stewart, 66, was beaten, stabbed, stomped and suffocated in his home after Leppert and Lowry showed up to steal his pickup truck so they could leave Florida.
 
There were questions earlier about AB being able to do the crime herself.

In earlier pictures she looked really tiny. But a poster put that she is 5'4" and 130 pounds. That is not that tiny anymore.
 
Another one:

Indiana Teenager Charged in Strangulation Death of Brother
Thursday , December 03, 2009

RISING SUN, Ind. —

Ignoring his younger brother's plea of "Andrew, stop," a 17-year-old who told authorities he identified with a television serial killer strangled the boy, dragged the body to his car and drove to see his girlfriend, an Indiana prosecutor said Thursday.

Andrew Conley of Rising Sun was calm and showed no remorse or emotion as he described strangling 10-year-old Conner Conley as the two wrestled Sunday, a probable cause affidavit said. Conley told investigators he dumped his brother's body near a park in the Ohio River community about 90 miles southeast of Indianapolis.

"Sometimes people are just evil," Dearborn-Ohio County Prosecutor Aaron Negangard said. "This is an evil child."

Prosecutors filed preliminary charges of murder against Conley along with a supporting affidavit Thursday. Conley is being charged as an adult and will appear Friday in court, Negangard said.

Conley's family did not immediately return messages for comment Thursday. Negangard said Conley had an attorney but none was listed in the affidavit.

The teen told investigators he had had fantasies about killing someone since he was in eighth grade, including cutting somebody's throat, and felt "just like" the serial killer Dexter on the Showtime television series of the same name. He said killing his brother satisfied a craving like a hamburger satisfied hunger.

"Like I had to ... like when people have something like they are hungry and there is a hamburger sitting there and they knew they had to have it and I was sitting there and it just happened," Conley told investigators in the affidavit.

The slaying comes six weeks after 15-year-old Alyssa Bustamante told Missouri authorities she strangled, stabbed and cut a 9-year-old neighbor's throat because she wanted to know what it was like to kill someone.

The affidavit in Conley's case described him killing his brother before visiting his girlfriend and other friends. It said:

The two brothers were wrestling while their parents were at work. Conley put Conner in a headlock, causing the younger boy to pass out and fall to the floor. Conley dragged Conner to kitchen, put on a pair of gloves and choked the younger boy for about 20 minutes until he noticed blood flowing from Conner's nose and mouth.

He told investigators the child's last words were "Andrew, stop."

Conley put a plastic bag over his brother's head, secured it with black electrical tape, and dragged the body by its feet down steps to the basement and then from the home to his car. Conley struck Conner's head on the ground several times before putting the body in the trunk of the car.

With the body still in the trunk, Conley drove to his girlfriend's house and gave her a sweetheart ring. She told investigators Conley "seemed happy, more happy than she had seen him in a while."

Negangard said he will consider seeking the maximum prison term of life without parole. Conley's age makes him ineligible for the death penalty.

"I believe Andrew Conley is a dangerous person, and that's why we'll be considering the maximum penalty that we can impose," Negangard said.

Conley also told investigators that on the morning of Conner's death, he stood over his sleeping father with a knife and thought about killing him. Conley went to police Sunday night, admitted killing Conner and told investigators where to find the body.

The teen had no juvenile record and his teachers considered him a good student, Negangard said.

"This kid, Conner, was a good kid, and Andrew was an A and B student," he said. "This comes as a shock to the community."

Conley has been held at the Juvenile Detention Center in Lawrenceburg but was to be moved Thursday night to the Switzerland County Jail in Vevay.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579225,00.html?test=latestnews
 
There were questions earlier about AB being able to do the crime herself.

In earlier pictures she looked really tiny. But a poster put that she is 5'4" and 130 pounds. That is not that tiny anymore.

And still no word on the bf-related breaking news that an earlier poster suggested would be forthcoming...
 
Appears he was a cutter too.

Indiana State Police Detective Thomas Baxter, who appeared at a news conference with Negangard, said Conley's parents had taken him out of school recently and he once intentionally cut himself on a forearm.

"I think there was at some point some self-destructive attempts by cutting," Baxter said.

Conley had no juvenile record and his teachers considered him a good student, Negangard said.

"This kid, Conner, was a good kid, and Andrew was an A and B student," he said. "This comes as a shock to the community."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091203/ap_on_re_us/us_indiana_boy_strangled
 
OMG....that is simply chilling about this monster killing his little brother

and again we hear "good grades"....no one would ever "suspect" this would happen

gag me
 
"This kid, Conner, was a good kid, and Andrew was an A and B student," he said. "This comes as a shock to the community."

Gee.. where have we heard that before?
 
The teen told investigators he had had fantasies about killing someone since he was in eighth grade, including cutting somebody's throat, and felt "just like" the serial killer Dexter on the Showtime television series of the same name. He said killing his brother satisfied a craving like a hamburger satisfied hunger. (...)

He told investigators the child's last words were "Andrew, stop."

Respectfully SBM

This breaks my heart. Is it ok to wonder aloud here what Elizabeth's last words might have been?

:rose:
 
I know we blame tv and video games for some of today's problems. When my oldest daughter was younger she and I watched wrestling on tv. I never once got a call that she had body slamed or pile driven any classmates or teachers. Why? Well I would like to think that me and my wife talking to her about the difference in reality and non reality. If we take the time to talk to our kids and make sure they know that people on tv have been trained to do what they do and unless you are trained to do that you don't attempt that. All it takes is just a little bit of parental supervision. Some people will disagree but I will not say wrestling is fake. Staged I will agree to. Some of the things they do is flat out dangerous and should be looked at as so.
 
And here is how we "do" it in Florida...this nasty 16 year old just sentenced to life in prison...good :)

I haven't even heard much info on this case...seems like she surely deserves it

http://free-lionel-tate.blogspot.com/2009/08/putnam-girl-16-convicted-of-1st-degree.html

Morgan Leppert will be sentenced to life in prison.

BUNNELL — As reality set in, Morgan Leppert’s sobs echoed through a Flagler County courtroom Thursday afternoon.

The Putnam County teenager will receive an automatic and mandatory life prison sentence after a jury’s first-degree murder verdict. The self-described “redneck cowgirl” will be the youngest girl in Florida’s prison system. She also was convicted of robbery and burglary.

The jury of five men and one woman apparently didn’t buy her childlike appearance and claims that her adult boyfriend, Toby Lowry, directed the robbery and murder of a disabled Melrose man last year. At the time, Leppert was 15 and a runaway from her San Mateo home; Lowry was 22.

“The level of violence that she and Toby Lowry reached, that trumped her age,” Assistant State Attorney Chris France said after the verdict, reached in about 90 minutes.

James Thomas Stewart, 66, was beaten, stabbed, stomped and suffocated in his home after Leppert and Lowry showed up to steal his pickup truck so they could leave Florida.
This is so very sad for all.
 
Respectfully SBM

This breaks my heart. Is it ok to wonder aloud here what Elizabeth's last words might have been?

:rose:

One can only imagine. The poor child probally never had a chance. That is very sick that anyone could do that to a child.
 
PAX, I'm glad you posted this. I do not want to :eek:ther_beatingA_Dead: but do want to think this out, and appreciate you bearing with me.

First, the only truly safe thing to do when questioned about ANYTHING by LE is to INVOKE YOUR RIGHTS. "Am I free to go? Am I being detained?" Let's say LE says, no no no, not detained, just want to get your input. So you start answering questions because you trust LE.

At some point as you answer questions, you become a POI in LE's mind. They absolutely DO NOT have to tell you when that happens. They do not have to say "This random questioning is now an 'interrogation'." In fact, they will do everything they can to keep you talking.

So let's say at some point in the "discussion" you ask again, "Can I go now?" If the answer is anything other than a clear and unambiguous "Yes, here's the door, have a good night," then you are being detained.

They don't have to tell you you are being detained even if you ask directly, and they can make detention as comfortable/unobtrusive as they deem necessary to get more information. But if LE doesn't immediately show you the door after asking "am I being detained," then the best response to them is, "I choose to remain silent and I want to see a lawyer," and then STOP TALKING. If you ask for a cup of water after invoking your rights, you ask this way: "I want a cup of water, and I choose to remain silent and I want to see a lawyer."

Given what's been posted about Miranda and fruit of the poisoned tree arguments, this is not going to be a problem in AB's case. AB and her guardians probably did not understand these rights and how they work, and in this case, that's fine by me. But IMO every citizen needs to understand these rules and how they work both for and against investigators.

Thank you so much for this information. The outline you have drawn for us is very clear and concise - you're so right, every citizen needs to understand these rules and how they can be used for and against a person. thanks for your expert opinion!
 
From everything I have read and heard they went there Fri to QUESTION her which DOES NOT require the Miranda rights to be read. MOO.

That depends if she would be allowed to stand up and leave any time she wanted and we dont know if thats the case or not, if she wasnt then it was a custodial situation and that would require miranda. If they did simply question her without officially being in custody or under arrest and therefore didnt need to read her the miranda rights then they cant use anything they learned against her since she wasnt informed that anything she told them could be used against her in a court of law....its a little bit more tricky than some of you laymen understand I am afraid. This is why law school is so expensive, there is a lot to learn.

Also note that the LE who inteviewed her said something to the effect that "In sum or ultimately she said she wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone." That tells me that isnt EXACTLY what she said but what he INTERPRETED her to mean and you cant interpret statements in court testimony or sum them up she either said this or that or she didnt, period.
 
:eek:ther_beatingA_Dead
 
That depends if she would be allowed to stand up and leave any time she wanted and we dont know if thats the case or not, if she wasnt then it was a custodial situation and that would require miranda. If they did simply question her without officially being in custody or under arrest and therefore didnt need to read her the miranda rights then they cant use anything they learned against her since she wasnt informed that anything she told them could be used against her in a court of law....its a little but more tricky than some of you laymen understand I am afraid. This is why law school is so expensive, there is a lot to learn.

Also note that the LE who inteviewed her said something to the effect that "In sum or ultimately she said she wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone." That tells me that isnt EXACTLY what she said but what he INTERPRETED her to mean and you cant interpret statements in court testimony or sum them up she either said this or that or she didnt, period.

Yay, PAX is back! OK, even if she hadn't been Mirandized (due to maybe them not being sure of who perp was at the time), then they could still use her info to guide their investigation same as they could have used info from (insert name of totally uninvolved neighbor here), right? And anything they found thereby would be evidence?

(Then again there is the point that she reportedly "led" LE to the grave site... not sure how defense will handle that.)

Also, LE is quoted as saying she "STATED that she wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone" (caps by me).

I have no thirst for AB's blood here. But if there was a flaw in my earlier post re: getting read your rights, please help me see it.
 
PAX, I'm glad you posted this. I do not want to :eek:ther_beatingA_Dead: but do want to think this out, and appreciate you bearing with me.

First, the only truly safe thing to do when questioned about ANYTHING by LE is to INVOKE YOUR RIGHTS. "Am I free to go? Am I being detained?" Let's say LE says, no no no, not detained, just want to get your input. So you start answering questions because you trust LE.

At some point as you answer questions, you become a POI in LE's mind. They absolutely DO NOT have to tell you when that happens. They do not have to say "This random questioning is now an 'interrogation'." In fact, they will do everything they can to keep you talking.

So let's say at some point in the "discussion" you ask again, "Can I go now?" If the answer is anything other than a clear and unambiguous "Yes, here's the door, have a good night," then you are being detained.

They don't have to tell you you are being detained even if you ask directly, and they can make detention as comfortable/unobtrusive as they deem necessary to get more information. But if LE doesn't immediately show you the door after asking "am I being detained," then the best response to them is, "I choose to remain silent and I want to see a lawyer," and then STOP TALKING. If you ask for a cup of water after invoking your rights, you ask this way: "I want a cup of water, and I choose to remain silent and I want to see a lawyer."

Given what's been posted about Miranda and fruit of the poisoned tree arguments, this is not going to be a problem in AB's case. AB and her guardians probably did not understand these rights and how they work, and in this case, that's fine by me. But IMO every citizen needs to understand these rules and how they work both for and against investigators.
I have personally seen someone being questioned by LE. This person asked if he was under arrest and was told no. Then he asked for an attorney before answering any questions. LE told him he will answer what ever they ask. Person asked again if he was under arrest and again was told no. Said person walked away and LE tackled him and proceeded to arrest him for resisting arrest! Made no sense to me.
 
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