MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[gliving]

We don't know to what extent the grandparents went through to monitor AB's activities, but I don't think in their wildest imagination they thought AB was capable of murdering a neighbor child. How does one predict/prepare for that?

And another item I've pondered:

From I Love Cookies 10 point post: "Seventh, Elizabeth's mom never called nor texted. Let's think about this rationally for a second. IF the rumors are true about how E was killed, and what was done post mortem, then the murder, ensuing acts, plus burial, would take at least an hour. Police arrived on the scene at 7 pm. E's mom said that she called and talked to E at 6:15."

ILC seems to know something here that we are not privy to. He speaks of the murder and the burial, but these "post mortem, ensuing acts" are new to me. Is he alluding to a desecration of Elizabeth's body? Or the "slicing of Elizabeth's neck after she was strangled" rumor we heard?

Just a small detail that jumped at me when I reread the threads. I'm still working on the timeline. Unless Elizabeth had prior permission, she would have ridden the bus to her own home and then walked to the neighbor's home. Children are not allowed to exit a school bus except at their own home. So that would make it about 4pm to 7pm when authorities are called. Phone records will show if Elizabeth spoke to her mother at 6:15, but I'm doubting that happened.

Again from I Love Cookies 10 point post: "Fourth, Elizabeth Olten's mother has gave 3 different stories on what happened to her daughter. 1st she said The 6 y/o picked up elizabeth to go play. 2nd she said the POI picked her to go play. and the 3rd and most recent story is that elizabeth went over to the house unprompted."

So, #1 the 6 y/o goes to get Elizabeth, #2 AB goes to get Elizabeth, and #3 Elizabeth shows up uninvited. Which one is the truth?

 

[W8nC]

From I Love Cookies 10 point post: "Seventh, Elizabeth's mom never called nor texted. Let's think about this rationally for a second. IF the rumors are true about how E was killed, and what was done post mortem, then the murder, ensuing acts, plus burial, would take at least an hour. Police arrived on the scene at 7 pm. E's mom said that she called and talked to E at 6:15."

ILC seems to know something here that we are not privy to. He speaks of the murder and the burial, but these "post mortem, ensuing acts" are new to me. Is he alluding to a desecration of Elizabeth's body? Or the "slicing of Elizabeth's neck after she was strangled" rumor we heard?

There are very Disturbing RUMORS locally, that Elizabeth was dismembered, in some way, and that both graves had to be searched to find all of her. I have given them no credence, assuming someone made it up to explain to themselves why there were two graves......but had not previously noticed what you point out in the ILC posts. Please, God, I hope these are only RUMORS.


PLEASE, DO NOT TAKE THIS AS FACT....IT IS A LOCAL RUMOR I HAVE HEARD HERE AND THERE, BUT WITH ABSOLUTELY NO FACTS TO BACK IT UP, AND NO SOURCE NOTED.

 

[gliving]

W8nC, it fits in with "rumors" I've heard from locals also. Still, how do we fit in the fact that the Grandparents were unaware AB was involved and even helped with the search, ILC stating Elizabeth would never have been found if the grandparents had not helped with the search. :waitasec:

More from ILC: "Police arrived on the scene at 7 pm. E's mom said that she called and talked to E at 6:15. Police went immediately into the woods (lets say 7:10pm). Knowing a few police officers in Kansas City, it is a fact that they wouldn't have shown up with their lights on, so alerting the POI with sirens or flashing lights is out of the question. So assuming that AB was out of the woods before the police showed up at 7:00 pm (which is when they showed up and not when they were called), and that they were called at about 6:45 (response time here is awful). Then there is NO way that E's mom called (supposedly she did so from a home phone) and talked to E at 6:15 because E was already dead."

Somehow here, the grandparents seem clueless as to the whereabouts of AB up until 7:00pm, when it's dark and past dinner time. Elizabeth's mother points LE to the woods behind the house, so she knows Elizabeth was visiting AB's home. How does ILC know Elizabeth is already dead unless he knows for a fact AB killed her? Abduction rumors were rampant, SOs questioned, flyers handed out to travelers, etc, well before AB confessed. In his attempt to explain, he comes right out and tells us AB murdered Elizabeth and even gives us a timeline to follow.

There must have been some evidence AB had murdered Elizabeth. I'm so curious with the three scenarios ILC offers of how Elizabeth came to AB's home. What is his purpose in explaining these details? Calling Elizabeth's mother a meth head, three different versions of how Elizabeth went to the home, he seems bent on shifting the blame to Elizabeth's mother. Is he trying to say AB's motive to murder Elizabeth somehow involves Elizabeth's mother?

I think Elizabeth's mother knew of AB's viciousness and warned Elizabeth to watch herself around her. Maybe Elizabeth told AB that her mom knew the truth about her and she wasn't fooling anyone. MOO

 

[vjlaw]

W8nC, it fits in with "rumors" I've heard from locals also. Still, how do we fit in the fact that the Grandparents were unaware AB was involved and even helped with the search, ILC stating Elizabeth would never have been found if the grandparents had not helped with the search. :waitasec:

More from ILC: "Police arrived on the scene at 7 pm. E's mom said that she called and talked to E at 6:15. Police went immediately into the woods (lets say 7:10pm). Knowing a few police officers in Kansas City, it is a fact that they wouldn't have shown up with their lights on, so alerting the POI with sirens or flashing lights is out of the question. So assuming that AB was out of the woods before the police showed up at 7:00 pm (which is when they showed up and not when they were called), and that they were called at about 6:45 (response time here is awful). Then there is NO way that E's mom called (supposedly she did so from a home phone) and talked to E at 6:15 because E was already dead."

Somehow here, the grandparents seem clueless as to the whereabouts of AB up until 7:00pm, when it's dark and past dinner time. Elizabeth's mother points LE to the woods behind the house, so she knows Elizabeth was visiting AB's home. How does ILC know Elizabeth is already dead unless he knows for a fact AB killed her? Abduction rumors were rampant, SOs questioned, flyers handed out to travelers, etc, well before AB confessed. In his attempt to explain, he comes right out and tells us AB murdered Elizabeth and even gives us a timeline to follow.

There must have been some evidence AB had murdered Elizabeth. I'm so curious with the three scenarios ILC offers of how Elizabeth came to AB's home. What is his purpose in explaining these details? Calling Elizabeth's mother a meth head, three different versions of how Elizabeth went to the home, he seems bent on shifting the blame to Elizabeth's mother. Is he trying to say AB's motive to murder Elizabeth somehow involves Elizabeth's mother?

I think Elizabeth's mother knew of AB's viciousness and warned Elizabeth to watch herself around her. Maybe Elizabeth told AB that her mom knew the truth about her and she wasn't fooling anyone. MOO

I think it was the cell phone pings that pointed LE to the woods not Elizabeth's mom.

 

[gliving]

Could be, but they searched the woods the first night, before the cell phone pings were found.

Also, I just reread more of ILC's posts and he says the twin boys were playing at Elizabeth's home while Elizabeth was at AB's home. It seems their paths would cross as each went home.

Ilovecookies
"From what i gather they were at EO's house"

Originally Posted by Prof View Post
...Elizabeth's family told ABC that suspect called Elizabeth to invite her back,...
Here is the link http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=8934228


So, AB's twin brothers played at Elizabeth's home that day and Elizabeth played with AB's little sister. No one saw Elizabeth at AB's house and no one saw the 6 y/o playing outside. Was Elizabeth even at AB's home or did the phone call from AB lure her to the woods?

 

[vjlaw]

Could be, but they searched the woods the first night, before the cell phone pings were found.

Also, I just reread more of ILC's posts and he says the twin boys were playing at Elizabeth's home while Elizabeth was at AB's home. It seems their paths would cross as each went home.

Ilovecookies
"From what i gather they were at EO's house"

Originally Posted by Prof View Post
...Elizabeth's family told ABC that suspect called Elizabeth to invite her back,...
Here is the link http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=8934228


So, AB's twin brothers played at Elizabeth's home that day and Elizabeth played with AB's little sister. No one saw Elizabeth at AB's house and no one saw the 6 y/o playing outside. Was Elizabeth even at AB's home or did the phone call from AB lure her to the woods?

There were a lot of searchers and they were searching everywhere including the woods. The sheriff,iirc, said the pings had stopped by thurs morning. Maybe the twins went home earlier and told EO her mom wanted her home. I believe ILC also said the focus for LE was on the little sister in finding out info since that is who she was playing with.

 

[gliving]

You're right vjlaw. It's fascinating that LE had cell phone pings the evening Elizabeth went missing. Usually it takes days and a warrant.

ST. MARTINS -- UPDATE: Thursday 10:41 am:

KRCG news has learned that missing 9 year-old Elizabeth Olten had a cell phone on her when she she disappeared.

She sheriff's department contacted the cell phone provider, AT&T, who "pinged" the cell phone to triangulate its location.

AT&T put the cell phone's location deep in the woods near Elizabeth's home. The family says Elizabeth would not have been walking in the woods to get home from her friend's house.
There are only four homes between the friends house and Elizabeth's, and the family says she normally walked near the road.

AT&T says the cell phone is not responding to pings anymore and probably ran out of batteries, the phone company says it will continue to monitor the phone in case it turns back on.

Another source:
"White also said the department got some phone records back from Elizabeth's cell phone and investigators went through those."

So if ILC is correct, then LE knew Wednesday night that the last call Elizabeth received was from Alyssa's home or cell phone with a time confirmed.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Sorry but I have really not seen anyone here saying that...you keep bringing it up...maybe in the first few days some heated posts were made, but I have not said that I want her punished in "cruel and unusual ways"...nor are any of us advocating the death penalty for her, you also say that a lot

We do want her treated as an adult...because IF they treat her as a child, she would get out at 21 with NO RECORD

and IF she was found "not guilty by reason of insanity" she could get out even sooner

that is the way the law is written now in her state....we can't change the law and try her by a new law....she will be under the laws that existed at the time she killed Elizabeth

So many of us feel the best thing is to try her and get her put away for years, hopefully to get mental "help" in prison where she can't hurt others

Let's not forget she will be 16 in January...but Elizabeth won't have another birthday

Elizabeth would have gotten presents, her "girly" fun stuff, dressed up her pets for Christmas....bright red bows or maybe those little "antlers"....enjoyed a big Christmas dinner

Allyssa probably had turkey and stuffing in the jail yesterday....Elizabeth didn't and never will

Yes, I think Allyssa should go to prison...to keep others safe from her , and to serve time as justice for the life she took so senselessly

But PLEASE let's get it straight...I am not advocating anything cruel and unusual here

Well it is my opinion that LWOP for 15 year old child is cruel and unusual as per the US Constitution.

 

[vjlaw]

You're right vjlaw. It's fascinating that LE had cell phone pings the evening Elizabeth went missing. Usually it takes days and a warrant.

ST. MARTINS -- UPDATE: Thursday 10:41 am:

KRCG news has learned that missing 9 year-old Elizabeth Olten had a cell phone on her when she she disappeared.

She sheriff's department contacted the cell phone provider, AT&T, who "pinged" the cell phone to triangulate its location.

AT&T put the cell phone's location deep in the woods near Elizabeth's home. The family says Elizabeth would not have been walking in the woods to get home from her friend's house.
There are only four homes between the friends house and Elizabeth's, and the family says she normally walked near the road.

AT&T says the cell phone is not responding to pings anymore and probably ran out of batteries, the phone company says it will continue to monitor the phone in case it turns back on.

Another source:
"White also said the department got some phone records back from Elizabeth's cell phone and investigators went through those."

So if ILC is correct, then LE knew Wednesday night that the last call Elizabeth received was from Alyssa's home or cell phone with a time confirmed.

As long as Alyssa had her cell phone back. Didn't someone say she had her cell phone taken away. I was wondering if she was called back by voice and not cell phone. The cell phone would certainly give the truth if Elizabeth's mother had called her and at what time.

 

[gliving]

I followed Kelsey Smith's case and it took Verizon three days to release the ping data from Kelsey's phone. They even wanted to charge her mother for the data. Since then Kelsey Smith Law was enacted to allow prompt release of cell phone pings and records. In a sense, Kelsey helped to find Elizabeth's body.

"Gov. Kathleen Sebelius signed a bill Friday mandating wireless communication companies to promptly help law enforcement officials pinpoint the location of a cellular telephone of someone who may be in jeopardy.

The measure is named for Overland Park teenager Kelsey Smith, who was kidnapped and murdered in June 2007.

Despite efforts by local law enforcement and the FBI, it took Verizon Wireless three days to provide phone records to investigators. Her body was subsequently found in a wooded area of Jackson County, Mo., about 20 miles from the abduction site.

Smith’s parents lobbied the House and Senate for passage of a bill requiring companies to respond to emergency requests for information about the location of a telephone signal.

“While no legislation can ever bring Kelsey back, we can make sure that our dedicated police and rescue workers can now get the information they need, when they need it,” Sebelius said. “Our thoughts continue to be with Kelsey’s family, friends and community.”

cjonline.com

 

[LadyRider]

I can not help but think the LEO officers knew something within the first hours of Elizabeth missing. Remember no alerts went out for her.

 

[lbminnesota]

I can not help but think the LEO officers knew something within the first hours of Elizabeth missing. Remember no alerts went out for her.

LE may have access to the history of calls to the home which raised their suspicions..running away, suicide attempt, etc.

 

[Bibliophile]

Also, no way her statement about wanting to kill to see what it feels like, gets introduced at trial

Hmm - I think admissibility is arguable. But you're right, the state most likely won't unless there is an issue with other evidence.

a first year law student could write the motion to get that tossed,

Hmm - in some cases perhaps but I am no 1L so my knowledge on that is limited.

so if I win I may have your sig read "biblio is pax's *****" LOL:crazy:

AE has advised me to hold on to my money; therefore on that advice I am assuming it would be prudent to hold on to my greatest asset. It would be incredible power in the wrong hands. :smile::crazy:

 

[Bibliophile]

Trust me. I read the case. If i were going into court, I would never rely heavily on a case that old.

Perhaps but you would need to be familiar with it as well as Jones, Crane and Hendricks.

Crane and Kendricks both have significant negative history, and the cases are distinguishable because they deal with "Sexually dangerous" individuals.

Pshaw. The fact that they arose from SVP statutes may be irrelevant - the importance was an additional requirement to the due process analysis.

"The Supreme Court did not change the standard for involuntary commitment. Nor did the Supreme Court's decision in Crane create a constitutional distinction between sentenced offenders and insanity acquittees. ... In essence Crane and Hendricks rephrased the general constitutional standard for civil commitment to clarify that proof of mental illness embraces proof of a mental condition that makes it difficult to control one's dangerous behavior. ... There is no justification, for reading those decisions as applying only to convicted sex offenders." Richard S. v. Carpinello, 08-4197-pr (2d Cir. December 15, 2009)

The thing we're debating here, though, is pretty unlikely. Missouri has a very high bar for insanity.

I agree.

Furthermore, I think you're overstating the likelihood that she be out in a shorter period of time in the event that she somehow wins a not guilty by reason of insanity verdict.

I don't believe I am though I don't know how much research is available because frankly, I haven't committed a lot of time to it. The Revels case and the 12 year old in FL are two off the top of my head. IMO, it is the conditional release programs and the concept of "least restrictive" that are an additional concerns for victim rights and public safety advocates. On paper, it can appear they were confined 20 years when in fact they were out in the community and minimally supervised for 18.

I'm not making a moral judgment about right or wrong - simply pointing out that until the public safety element is honestly addressed, we're not likely to reach acceptable levels of resolution.

 

[Bibliophile]

We don't know to what extent the grandparents went through to monitor AB's activities, but I don't think in their wildest imagination they thought AB was capable of murdering a neighbor child. How does one predict/prepare for that?

You don't. And especially a parent or grandparent. The nature of the relationship precludes it.

And another item I've pondered:From I Love Cookies 10 point post: "Seventh, Elizabeth's mom never called nor texted. Let's think about this rationally for a second. IF the rumors are true about how E was killed, and what was done post mortem, then the murder, ensuing acts, plus burial, would take at least an hour. Police arrived on the scene at 7 pm. E's mom said that she called and talked to E at 6:15." ILC seems to know something here that we are not privy to. He speaks of the murder and the burial, but these "post mortem, ensuing acts" are new to me. Is he alluding to a desecration of Elizabeth's body? Or the "slicing of Elizabeth's neck after she was strangled" rumor we heard?

Without mentioning all the other issues, ILC is placing his arbitrary time constraints on something he knows little about. If she planned it and dug the grave(s) in advance, the deed easily could have been accomplished in much less than an hour. Depending on the variables involved, one can be rendered unconscious within 30 seconds with strangulation. With a prepared site, AB could have been back home in 15 minutes.

IMO, Cookies knew a few things - but we should not assume he knew all things.

 

[Prof]

I can not help but think the LEO officers knew something within the first hours of Elizabeth missing. Remember no alerts went out for her.

Remember as of Friday early afternoon, October 23 LE made statements to the press who reported: "No foul play is suspected in the young girl's disappearance, so an Amber Alert has not been issued."
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2317048/elizabeth_olten_still_missing_search.html?cat=9

And in all of the press conferences (posted previously) LE held up until Friday 3 pm did not indicate any inkling of knowing anything, and promised to be forthcoming


IMO LE had zero inkling of what really happened to Elizabeth until evidence was handed to them on Friday

 

[AndresEscobar]

(respectfully snipped)

"The Supreme Court did not change the standard for involuntary commitment. Nor did the Supreme Court's decision in Crane create a constitutional distinction between sentenced offenders and insanity acquittees. ... In essence Crane and Hendricks rephrased the general constitutional standard for civil commitment to clarify that proof of mental illness embraces proof of a mental condition that makes it difficult to control one's dangerous behavior. ... There is no justification, for reading those decisions as applying only to convicted sex offenders." Richard S. v. Carpinello, 08-4197-pr (2d Cir. December 15, 2009)

pff, smoked me on some fresh cases there . I'll have to look this one up. Though, since it's second circuit, it isn't binding authority to a Missouri court.

Anyway, my basic point is, from my experience, i think there will be an insanity plea suggested and from that the plea agreement will come.

 

[gliving]

I can not help but think the LEO officers knew something within the first hours of Elizabeth missing. Remember no alerts went out for her.

Yes, especially with the phone pinging in the woods behind Alyssa's house. Still, I think they may have thought she fell in the pond or something similar. It's the murder by teen girl that threw them for a loop.

"Elizabeth's family told ABC that suspect called Elizabeth to invite her back"

LE knew this the night she went missing by way of phone records. They positioned the infrared helicopters and massive search party directly to the woods.

 

[gliving]

IMO LE had zero inkling of what really happened to Elizabeth until evidence was handed to them on Friday

I think we all had a WTF moment when we learned what happened, LE included.

I might add they had AB's diary Thursday night according to ILC. They had an inkling. They just needed the body.

 

[LogicalMinds]

The WTF is soooo true

There is a horror about this case ....parents watch out for the known "boogeyman"...they check RSO lists...they keep unsavory guys away....
they monitor their kids playmates...they give their kids cell phones...they
allow a child of 9 years to walk a few houses away to play with a little girlfriend

to learn that the killer is a 15 year old "big sister" of a playmate?? a killer who did not
kill accidently...or in a fit of rage...but coldly plotted a murder to see what it felt like?

It throws our whole "world view" upside down...what can parents do?? Wrap their kids in cotton?? Stay at their side 24/7??