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We can agree to disagree my profession is rehabilitation and I have seen it work, the other side is locking people up like animals and it never works, they always come out harder and colder than when they went in.
If our prisons were places of rehabilitation that would be one thing but they are not and not even remotely so. They are barbaric based on a dark ages mentality and an embarassment to any progressive and forward thinking society, which admittedly we are neither, sadly.
Sometimes the food in prisons suck..sometimes it is great...
To everyone who thinks that there is a possibility of rehabilitation... Please open your eyes to the possibility that Alyssa was a very smart girl in her planning, even diabolical. Please consider for a moment that her intellegence made her aware that if she were caught that her age would probably be to her benefit. She obviously was not a misinformed girl. I have a son who is sixteen and his opinion is that she is one scary individual ( that my friends is is an opinion of a peer) She knew better, she knowingly and intentionally did harm and with intent to kill another human being. How do you rehabilitate that? You don't. Something of this magnitude cannot be compared to shoplifting or even experimenting with drugs. The line was crossed from being reckless with your own life into the destruction of another with forthought. There should be no "do-over". You cannot rehabilitate a murderer, pedophile or rapist, it is how their mind works and is programmed to disregard the value of life, so the decision should be to protect society from one who cannot be "fixed"
I wonder to those who believe in rehabilitation, how in the world can you say that you believe in counseling someone like this? Really? At what point would you feel comfortable in releasing her back into society? The prison systems are far from barbaric, 3 meals a day, cable, higher education, medical and dental. This is hardly barbaric as homeless shelters have far less ameneties and are trying to do the right thing for law abiding citizens who have fallen on hard times.
IMHO as always - When the value of human life is questioned, you cannot make someone value it over the age of 3.
This is what we do KNOW about previous therapy: Pathways got involved in 2007 when AB tried to commit suicide -- the JO in the case stated that she "sometimes received daily intensive treatment at home"
If you look at the Pathways (hyperlinked here) you can see that Pathways does offer these services for 4 to 6 weeks - we do not know that AB got more than that -- we really do not know how long she was in therapy and if that therapy was still underway, as some of the accounts of the Grand Jury hearing vary and none give any specific time range, so IMO it is not wise to assume that she had the "best therapy," had "therapy for a few years:, or therapy for any real length of time -- IMO all of her public cries for attention did not evidence a child in intensive therapy
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Well unfortunately if they try them as a juvenile they get out at 21 with NO record, no parole no nothing....free and clear
and they don't even have a juvenile facility that would be safe to keep her in...they have a "secure" boys facility for the worst offenders but for girls it seems missiouri only has dorm type/minimum security facilities that she might get out of...and she could also hurt the other girls in there
probably with a plea deal she might get 25 or 30 years
have you seen the case of Michael Hernandez who killed Jamie Gough in Florida?? Google them and see
very similar to this case
Michael and his lawyers turned down a plea deal...and he is now serving life plus 30 years
he killed cause he wanted to...had plans...detailed notes...he had a little "hit" list but ultimately killed his shy friend, a sweet boy who was small and shy....slit his throat and stabbed him 42 ? times in the restroom at school, came back and sat at his desk like nothing happened (he wore a windbreaker and gloves etc that he disposed of)
Well everyone has their own opinion about these things and mine is that if we dont show people like AB some compassion and forgiveness then all we are really doing is confirming for her that the world view she had that led her down this path to begin with, that the world is a dark, cold and evil place, is reality and she will never have a chance to see or learn otherwise.
What she did was very wrong but nothing can bring EO back, all we can do now is try to reach AB and help her overcome whatever it is inside of her that made her do this and hopefully by helping her we will be helping the many others like her who may be already on that same path.
It is fairly obvious to me that the field of mental health in this country does not get the attention, respect, or money necessary to be as effective as it could be. IMO neither do children's services. = I have read over and over again assertions without any evidence that AB got all of the help she needed -- my question again how can one be so certain of the help she received?
I have said this before,that I have not heard one argument for AB's release --and if I am wrong, you can go ahead and send her to my house- (sheesh to that Ad Baculum )
I repeat: Nobody wants AB released
I think there is a need to both protect the community and help her
This is what we do KNOW about previous therapy: Pathways got involved in 2007 when AB tried to commit suicide -- the JO in the case stated that she "sometimes received daily intensive treatment at home"
If you look at the Pathways (hyperlinked here) you can see that Pathways does offer these services for 4 to 6 weeks - we do not know that AB got more than that -- we really do not know how long she was in therapy and if that therapy was still underway, as some of the accounts of the Grand Jury hearing vary and none give any specific time range, so IMO it is not wise to assume that she had the "best therapy," had "therapy for a few years:, or therapy for any real length of time -- IMO all of her public cries for attention did not evidence a child in intensive therapy
"Juvenile officer David Cook testified that Bustamante has received mental health services since September 2007 after she attempted suicide. She had a ten-day stay in the Mid-Missouri Mental Health Center after the attempt, and has received mental health services from Pathways Community Behavioral Healthcare in Jefferson City since."
Let us not forget that the Judge stated his disappointment with the state of services for youths in MO: "Judge Beetem said he was "disappointed with the Division of Youth Services" because it lacks the 'adequate facilities, programs, or services that [Bustamante] needs to treat her past her 21st birthday.' (lacks adequate is pretty much failing in my language)
AND even the juvenile prosecutor in the hearing understood the need for treatment: "Green, the prosecutor, rested much of her case to try Bustamante as an adult rested on the lack of proper services in the juvenile system to treat Bustamante, which Judge Beetem upheld in his decision."
Also "Cook said Bustamante takes Prozac for depression and also received services for mood swings and self-harm. Cook said Bustamante has a history of cutting herself, but said that there were no indications she was homicidal."
KOMU article hyperlinked here
And in that same article above "Cook said her life at home was normal and structured. She did chores and earned an allowance, and had no abnormal confrontations with her siblings." Huh? It was not abnormal to encourage her 10 year old brothers to hurt themselves over and over again? Hmmn it was not abnormal to fake stab another child with a real knife and post the pic on the internet? IDK but according to experts one of the 3rd level immediate warning signs of a dangerous child is if he or she owns a weapon, or "Brought a weapon to a place or situation that is inappropriate." Hmmn what kind of supervision? What kind of therapy?
IDK
My belief is that she should receive compassion and if she asks for forgiveness in earnest, she should be forgiven. However, that doesn't mean she shouldn't be held accountable for her actions. There is a lot of confusion about being held accountable in today's society, which is why I think there are more crimes being committed. You CAN have compassion and you CAN forgive, but there is a thing called "Love and Logic" that isn't being used as much as it should be. MOO
She absolutely does need to be held accountable and for a long time, but in a place where she can become a better person and not in a place where she will just rot away in a cell watched over by those who have no training in how to really help her.
It is fairly obvious to me that the field of mental health in this country does not get the attention, respect, or money necessary to be as effective as it could be. IMO neither do children's services.
It appears she had the best that was available. That may not be saying as much as we'd like but ---- She had grandparents who were willing to step up to the plate (many do not); she had adults that were invested in her care (many do not); she had in-hospital services, medication, group therapy, individual therapy and in-home intensive therapy. I understand you're asserting that it was not enough. I'm throwing out the possibility that no amount would have been enough.I have read over and over again assertions without any evidence that AB got all of the help she needed -- my question again how can one be so certain of the help she received?
And we don't know that she didn't. I'm pretty sure she received therapy, on one level or another, for much longer than 4 to 6 weeks. Her first inpatient treatment was over two years ago.If you look at the Pathways (hyperlinked here) you can see that Pathways does offer these services for 4 to 6 weeks - we do not know that AB got more than that --
Or you could look at it another way -- I'd say there is no readily apparent evidence that the child responded to therapy.it is not wise to assume that she had the "best therapy," had "therapy for a few years:, or therapy for any real length of time -- IMO all of her public cries for attention did not evidence a child in intensive therapy
The Division of Youth Services was never intended to treat anyone past their 21st birthday. Its "youth services." I think what Judge Beetem was saying was not so much they were inadequate, but that Alyssa's age and the nature of the crime made for a rare and heinous combination that made placement a problem.Let us not forget that the Judge stated his disappointment with the state of services for youths in MO: "Judge Beetem said he was "disappointed with the Division of Youth Services" because it lacks the 'adequate facilities, programs, or services that [Bustamante] needs to treat her past her 21st birthday.'
I've found that its often easy, retrospectively, to assign behaviors as warning signs. Believe it or not, if the things you mention are warning signs, there are no doubt hundreds of thousands of kids we need to lock up immediately.And in that same article above "Cook said her life at home was normal and structured. She did chores and earned an allowance, and had no abnormal confrontations with her siblings." Huh? It was not abnormal to encourage her 10 year old brothers to hurt themselves over and over again? Hmmn it was not abnormal to fake stab another child with a real knife and post the pic on the internet?
TY for this wonderful post! Many people say rehabilitation doesnt work but how do we know when we havent even tried?
Lock her up and throw away the key only tells AB she was right all along, the world is a fecked up place. I would really like her to know different and it seems nobody took the time to really help her see that.