MO - Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #9

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No, it was confirmed tonight by LE on Judge Jeanine's show: (no link yet)

Captain Young: re phone call at 2:38 from 1 of phones
can't discuss


i challenge anyone to think of anything we haven't done

Jeanne P: father's car broken into last month; he made a police report

I'm not sure why their "home" would have been a target. But I got to thinking and I could be way off on this one...but I am now leaning a bit towards a TEAM came into that home. I just find the mother too genuine. What if a "couple"...male/female 16-22 are doing robberies in the neighborhood. Has anyone checked to see if blotters show other cars broken into? Maybe whomever knows the family (as I've always felt) broke in to steal from the house this time and perhaps the female "got greedy" and decided on the spur of the moment to take the baby? Maybe police should focus on "troubled" or "repeat offenders with minor crimes" in the neighborhood. I know it's a long shot...Maybe they should dust dad's steering wheel to find out who broke in his car and go from there.
 
I doubt LE is just going by her behavior, though. I don't believe they would tell her she flunked a poly unless they have some type of evidence that proves she lied about something.

JMO

1. They sometimes do that as part of their interrogation tactics.
2. A Poly should not be given if someone is on anti anxiety or other mood disorder meds in conjunction with stress and/or grief.
3. A poly should not be given if someone has has lack of sleep.
Therefore, in my opinion, the results of the polygraph does not mean anything to me.
 
Newborns are swaddled. Typically, 10 month old babies are not swaddled. DB reported putting fresh clothes on Lisa and putting her to sleep with a bottle. There was no mention of swaddling.

I'm just trying to catch up with this case and going backwards through the thread (seriously, two days and there are too many threads to adequately catch up- is Shelby1 still posting her summaries?) and don't recall this being addressed. Lisa probably wasn't swaddled when put to bed, but she might have been swaddled by the kidnapper to help keep her asleep. As somebody who regularly ends up moving a sleeping child, the less the kid moves the less likely they are to wake up. Swaddling the kid prevents limbs from falling and jerking the kid awake.

I guess one of the things that bothers me about this is that you'd think the parents would know their child's size for a few reasons:

1. Because infant medication goes by weight, so you have to keep general tabs on their weight, even if not EXACT.

3. Because the sizes in children's clothing corresponds to certain height-weight ranges. If they are publicizing her as 30 lbs yet she wears size 12m clothes, it's immediately clear that the weight is not possible.

Anyway, even though it's a small detail, it just seems weird and makes me wonder how in tune people surrounding the baby and the case overall actually are.

Snipped by me for space. My perfectly average-to-above average kids have never worn the right age/weight range. Ever. They are always 1-2 sizes down from where they "should" be. The nearly 30 pound kid wears 9-12 month clothes (the one I haven't weeded out of the wardrobe for other reasons- if I buy new I go towards 18-24 months so there's room to grow), and would fit 6-9 month shorts and t-shirts. Tiny little thing with bones made out of concrete, I swear. I also weigh the kids... well, let's say rarely. I operate under the assumption that they are healthy, thriving and eating well- if I need their weight for something I get it, but I can think on one hand the number of times that's come up. And since the parents knew how to describe her down to a bug bite, I don't buy that they aren't tuned in.

For those questioning why hte father might have questioned the son in the bed- it's possible that they don't allow him in bed when dad is there for whatever reason (space on the bed, dad doesn't like the practice or finds it hard to sleep with the kid in bed, whatever), but with dad at work it isn't worth the argument. So it would be unusual for dad, but not odd.



Couple of questions, to save me wading through every thread. I'm seeing mention of a dog that didn't bark- is that the family's dog or a neighbour's? Where was the dog at night- inside, outside, in the bedroom with the mother? The father's car was broken into recently? Is there a possibility a key was in the car that could have been duplicated and put back? Super stretch, I know, but a thought that popped to mind. Is there a link to the family interview (interviews?) that people are suspicious of, finding the tears fake and such?
 
Hypothetical only:
What if the mother is NOT involved in anyway? What if the dad planned this? What if he gave his daughter to someone to "hold" for him (another woman?) when he came home from work (hence no barking dog) with the intent of perhaps leaving the country with both of his kids and this "snowballed" much bigger than he thought would happen? Maybe he didn't feel it would go national? Most men don't follow child abduction cases to know just how big it gets? There are many parental abductions and those that leave the country...all of the time. This time, however, maybe the dad needed to wait "for some reason" before he could flee. Maybe a passport? Maybe "staying on the scene" to gain her support so "alarms" don't go off that he did this? If this is indeed a "family" situation...I have to say, the mother is just too genuine in her fears, anxiety, crying to find her suspicious in my eyes. The father on the other hand seems extremely stoic. Stand offish , almost with some kind of further knowledge. Could be knowledge of something else...but something not right about his reactions.Just my thoughts.
 
Good morning all-

I wanted to stay up for the interview with the parents but of course fell asleep. Playing catch up again! Anything new besides the dog that always barks but didn't bark that night?
 
There was something else said in that interview last night that peaked my curiosity as it was something "new" regarding the timeline... she has said all along that she shouted "call 911, call 911" and HE SAYS "Where are all the phones?" and she says "They must have taken them so that we could not make any calls.".......yet, I believe last night that she said that SHE hollered "where are the phones?"...... And he "forgets" that he has a phone in his pocket? Busy racing to find phones and his own phone is in his pocket? Was he trying to deter her from making that call? I do believe the baby was abducted...but I think the dad has knowledge. Could be really wrong...but I can't help believing he may have something to do with it. What if his car broken into was another set up so the wife would think that their house was "targeted"? What was taken when his car broken into?
 
I'm not sure why their "home" would have been a target. But I got to thinking and I could be way off on this one...but I am now leaning a bit towards a TEAM came into that home. I just find the mother too genuine. What if a "couple"...male/female 16-22 are doing robberies in the neighborhood. Has anyone checked to see if blotters show other cars broken into? Maybe whomever knows the family (as I've always felt) broke in to steal from the house this time and perhaps the female "got greedy" and decided on the spur of the moment to take the baby? Maybe police should focus on "troubled" or "repeat offenders with minor crimes" in the neighborhood. I know it's a long shot...Maybe they should dust dad's steering wheel to find out who broke in his car and go from there.

IIRC the Riley Fox abductor, rapist and murderer's intent was to burglarize the home but then he saw her and took her. This has also been a theory in the Haleigh Cummings case. Tommy Croslin was a petty thief who struck at night even if the residents were home. He may have went to Haleigh's home to steal but took her instead. There are many instances people have been robbed while they were sleeping and never knew it until they woke up. It is a scary thought someone comes in your home and you never knew it but it happens. I don't think it would have to be a woman stealing a child, men do it too but as we all know anything is possible. I have not ruled anything out yet!
 
Things the police may not have done ?
1. Check to see if the dad recently applied for a passport.
2. Find out if dad has a girlfriend.
3. Dust dad's steering wheel and car for prints from the "break in"...especially interior. (exterior may have been washed by now.)
4. check dad's route home via cameras to see if a female in a car was following him home.
5. Give Dad that polygraph. (remember it was DAD who said he reached his boiling point and called off everything with the police a few days ago. It wasn't mom.)
 
IIRC the Riley Fox abductor, rapist and murderer's intent was to burglarize the home but then he saw her and took her. This has also been a theory in the Haleigh Cummings case. Tommy Croslin was a petty thief who struck at night even if the residents were home. He may have went to Haleigh's home to steal but took her instead. There are many instances people have been robbed while they were sleeping and never knew it until they woke up. It is a scary thought someone comes in your home and you never knew it but it happens. I don't think it would have to be a woman stealing a child, men do it too but as we all know anything is possible. I have not ruled anything out yet!

In Hailey's case she was an older child, the age that predators "like" :( It is extremely rare that a baby is kidnapped for molestation or a predator purpose and highly unlikely that a male would want a baby...unless it was to present to a wife because they couldn't have one and to pass it off as an adoption "surprise"...yet...the wife would have to see this on the news. As for sweet Hailey, I believe Misty knows and that Hailey was not abducted. That crime was a cover up.
 
1. They sometimes do that as part of their interrogation tactics.
2. A Poly should not be given if someone is on anti anxiety or other mood disorder meds in conjunction with stress and/or grief.
3. A poly should not be given if someone has has lack of sleep.
Therefore, in my opinion, the results of the polygraph does not mean anything to me.

IMO, you wouldn't tell someone who you thought was 100% innocent that they flunked a polygraph test (unless they really did).....

If you are suspicious and doubt their story, yeah, I can see a cop saying that to try to break the person down and get them to confess...

Otherwise, what's the use if you thought/knew they were innocent.
 
There was something else said in that interview last night that peaked my curiosity as it was something "new" regarding the timeline... she has said all along that she shouted "call 911, call 911" and HE SAYS "Where are all the phones?" and she says "They must have taken them so that we could not make any calls.".......yet, I believe last night that she said that SHE hollered "where are the phones?"...... And he "forgets" that he has a phone in his pocket? Busy racing to find phones and his own phone is in his pocket? Was he trying to deter her from making that call? I do believe the baby was abducted...but I think the dad has knowledge. Could be really wrong...but I can't help believing he may have something to do with it. What if his car broken into was another set up so the wife would think that their house was "targeted"? What was taken when his car broken into?[/QUOTED]

Hi Lavanda. I woke up early thinking about dad. There was a discussion last night about the fact that Debbie is still married to S Bradley and technically, he is the legal father of this child. I guess if mom got a divorce, Jeremy could be added as a third party and get it all worked out, but so far, that hasn't happened. So if D and J broke up, I don't know that J would be in a very strong position as to custody- even though everyone agrees he is the biodad. Weird, huh? So maybe that is all part of the dynamics. And giving names to LE of married women who have had affairs as possible kidnappers. Just strange.
 
I've been catching up on this case all day, weighing up all of the information from MSM and different POV's of posters. I did what I usually do and stay---> :fence: until I feel there's enough evidence to draw a fair and logical conclusion.
I try really hard not to base it on appearances or behaviour, knowing that people react differently under stress.

But the 'I'm sorry' at the end of this video reinforced what my gut was telling me....It's pretty safe to say that I'm off the fence with the delivery of those two words....And it's really not like me to rush to judgement.

She doesn't seem to be saying sorry for breaking down, so what exactly is she sorry for? She must feel somehow culpable.

JMO and I really do hope I'm wrong.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-ba...rating-investigation-police/story?id=14695496

It's the video on the left titled: Lisa Irwin: A Look Inside the Home
 
my two cents: Mom during interviews when asked a question she doesn't want to answer goes to hard cry's.

I think father is doubting her underneath, I think he was the one who asked her lets go back to LE to talk to them. She had to or the gig was up

I think the lights on was her cleaning up the scene, she saw hub coming, and ran into her room, pretended to be asleep and had no time to turn off the lights.

My guess those phones and the baby is very close to the search area LE was when she got upset which precipitated her stopping the cooperation. LE was very close to the phone or the baby and she panicked.

I think she is fearful of her husband finding out the truth

I think she did everything in haste with no time to think the scene through because hub came home earlier then he thought initially he would.

Not disagreeing with you but if mom harmed Lisa and as you say she is very close to the search area, wouldn't she have been found by now? They had over 300 cops canvassing the area. Tracking or scent dogs brought in. Nothing as far as we know from the dogs. So where is she??

I agree that if a parent harms a child, they're usually disposed of close to home.

Does mom have a car? I don't recall it being mentioned in any of the reports so I assumed she doesn't. If she doesn't and she is responsible for harming Lisa, she couldn't have gone very far unless she got help from someone.

The 2:30 call bugs the heck out of me.
 
IMO, you wouldn't tell someone who you thought was 100% innocent that they flunked a polygraph test (unless they really did).....

If you are suspicious and doubt their story, yeah, I can see a cop saying that to try to break the person down and get them to confess...

Otherwise, what's the use if you thought/knew they were innocent.

To get them to take a second one. While stressed from failing the first one.
Then compare.
(police tactics)
 
There was something else said in that interview last night that peaked my curiosity as it was something "new" regarding the timeline... she has said all along that she shouted "call 911, call 911" and HE SAYS "Where are all the phones?" and she says "They must have taken them so that we could not make any calls.".......yet, I believe last night that she said that SHE hollered "where are the phones?"...... And he "forgets" that he has a phone in his pocket? Busy racing to find phones and his own phone is in his pocket? Was he trying to deter her from making that call? I do believe the baby was abducted...but I think the dad has knowledge. Could be really wrong...but I can't help believing he may have something to do with it. What if his car broken into was another set up so the wife would think that their house was "targeted"? What was taken when his car broken into?[/QUOTED]

Hi Lavanda. I woke up early thinking about dad. There was a discussion last night about the fact that Debbie is still married to S Bradley and technically, he is the legal father of this child. I guess if mom got a divorce, Jeremy could be added as a third party and get it all worked out, but so far, that hasn't happened. So if D and J broke up, I don't know that J would be in a very strong position as to custody- even though everyone agrees he is the biodad. Weird, huh? So maybe that is all part of the dynamics. And giving names to LE of married women who have had affairs as possible kidnappers. Just strange.

Did they say to give LE names of married women as possible kidnappers? Confused. sorry.
 
LE has not denied the 2:30ish am phone activity but they won't discuss it either.

If the phone activity occured here is a possible explanation of how Deborah could be asleep but her phone shows it is in use. I have an AT&T prepaid phone. They send time and balance updates quite frequently. When it does this my phone lights up but there isn't a tone. I was sitting here in the dark with it on the table beside me and saw it light up and I had a lightbulb moment thinking that could explain the early am cell phone activity when Deborah was sleeping. It shows activity even though no one is using the phone. Once the phone is analyzed the data can be retrieved. I can't remember what it shows up as on my activity. Since it is prepaid I don't get a bill but I can go online to my account and view the activity.

As to why one would steal them I have no clue-dumb criminal? Remember Rudy Guide stole phones from Meredith Kercher after he murdered her. He used one to try and obtain her bank account PIN so he could access funds from her account then he threw them in someone's yard.

JMO
 
Some reported statistical data from the USA Today.


KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) – Decades of statistics on infant abductions in the U.S. suggest one of the least likely scenarios in this week's disappearance of a Kansas City baby is that a stranger broke into her home and quietly snatched her from her crib.

Strangers who kidnap infants or young children, though rare, often do so because they want a child of their own, not because they intend to hurt or kill the child

"The recovery rate for infants is very, very high. There is real hope here,"

Allen said his organization has handled 278 infant abduction cases during his nearly three decades with the group. Only 13 cases involved a stranger coming into a home and taking a baby, and all but one of those children were recovered unharmed.

More at the linky

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-10-08/missing-missouri-infant/50704820/1
 
In Hailey's case she was an older child, the age that predators "like" :( It is extremely rare that a baby is kidnapped for molestation or a predator purpose and highly unlikely that a male would want a baby...unless it was to present to a wife because they couldn't have one and to pass it off as an adoption "surprise"...yet...the wife would have to see this on the news. As for sweet Hailey, I believe Misty knows and that Hailey was not abducted. That crime was a cover up.

I understand the statistics about the age a child a predator would "like", just keeping an open mind, baby rapers are rarer but not unheard of, anything is possible, look at Melissa Huckaby, no one suspected her, many people were shocked when they found out who harmed Sandra Cantu, I know I was.

As for Haleigh, I agree with you, the Tommy story is just a theory that has been tossed around.

JMO
 
Things the police may not have done ?
1. Check to see if the dad recently applied for a passport.
2. Find out if dad has a girlfriend.
3. Dust dad's steering wheel and car for prints from the "break in"...especially interior. (exterior may have been washed by now.)
4. check dad's route home via cameras to see if a female in a car was following him home.
5. Give Dad that polygraph. (remember it was DAD who said he reached his boiling point and called off everything with the police a few days ago. It wasn't mom.)

I'm guessing dad's alibi checked out. Based on the timeline, leaving work, getting home and calling 911, he could not have been involved.

IMO, the boiling point may have been as a result of LE throwing out possible theories that mom did this. I believe it was more of a denial mechanism than guilt. He needed time and space to think things through and clear his head. The stoic and shocked look from dad may be because he may be doubting the story. He knows what he felt and saw that night but it may not be making any sense to him either. Same as we are questioning the "why's", he may be asking himself the same things.

If they believe it was preplanned, then I agree that they should look at him closer but as of right now, I think they're putting all their resources into finding Lisa and focusing on that fateful night.
 
Did they say to give LE names of married women as possible kidnappers? Confused. sorry.

Last night in the Jeanne P interview, she asked how they came up with names of people who might have kidnapped Lisa.(they gave LE a list of 9-12 names I think) Dad said .. people who have had miscarriages, people who have gone through divorces or... cheated on their husbands.

Well, I thought that sounded crazy.
 
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