MO - Lisa Irwin, 10 mos, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011

[RANCH]

askfornina, this is an awesome timeline and supposition of what may have happened to poor lisa. thank you so much.

i guess my only sticking point is that lisa was quiet and not seen for so long. i mean assuming she was there and not dead. i am also not a parent. but surely... surely she would have been upset if sick, even if dosed with extra medicine. and surely a mom, even a drunk selfish mom would check on her?

but... i agree that i do not think that mom could have masterminded this. i just hope we have some answers and find poor lisa and make sure that whomever did this cannot do it again.

I wonder what Lisa's brothers said about her disposition that night. Maybe they checked on her or observed her at times. They were interviewed by trained people. I would assume that the boys recollection of the nights activities is known to police.

So maybe she wasn't totally quiet and not seen for a long time that night. JMO.

 

[Razz]

I'm only going to comment on a couple of your points right now.

#5 How would Mark Furhman know what kind of fibers, hair or DNA was found in Lisa's room? I don't even recall him saying anything like that during the show. There had to be some hair, fibers and DNA collected anyway. At least I hope so.

#7-1 Why would Tanko have to leave fingerprints behind? Gloves or smudged prints perhaps.

#7-2 I think that Jeremy saw the window open/screen ajar and assumed it was an entry point initially. The unlocked front door would be an easy point of entry IMO.

#8 What does Deborah's hair have to do with anything?

5. I'm pretty sure during Megyn's show Furman mentioned the lack of hair, fibers, dna etc. How would he know? I suspect he talks to fellow cops. Yes, Furman has a checkered past but I still respect what he has to say.

7). I would think Tanko would leave "something" behind. Was he familiar with the interior of the house? Did he have to open doors to see if everyone was asleep and to check where Lisa's crib was? Why turn on lights? He had to reach into the crib to lift Lisa out. It seems he would have left "something" behind. How did he carry a baby and 3 cell phones and make it out the front door?

8). Sorry, I was being snarky. There has been some indication that Debra appears to like the limelight and maybe the perks that come with it.

If Lisa was coming down with a cold, was there medicine in the cabinet? In the trash? Did Debra give her cold medicine? This would explain that it was "an accident" and not a deliberate murder.

I'm not "sold" on Debra being the one who took her daughter to who knows where. Just batting around some ideas that make sense to me.

JMO

 

[redheadedgal]

Your quote states it's "almost always a woman" and "usually a woman". I hope your not saying that this somehow precludes John Tanko from taking Lisa.

Statistics like this is why LE concentrated on Lisa's parents at the beginning. I have a feeling that they have looked at the evidence and have moved on from that now. At least I hope they have. JMO.

1)there are many threads in this forum with links to other research and stats that uphold why tanko does not fit the profile of a baby kidnapper
2)i would imagine it was more than mere statistics that kept the focus on DB
3)will not go round and round on this again

happy new year everyone!!

 

[redheadedgal]

I guess the local news people don't care enough about keeping a missing local child in the public view. Sad.

lisa's parents have very publicly refused to interview with local media, national only. so why would local media be interested in covering a case where they've been repeatedly snubbed? that is what's sad imo.

 

[Hiandmighty]

She did seem "overly done" to me, but that in itself doesn't mean anything.

 

[tlcya]

I wonder what Lisa's brothers said about her disposition that night. Maybe they checked on her or observed her at times. They were interviewed by trained people. I would assume that the boys recollection of the nights activities is known to police.

So maybe she wasn't totally quiet and not seen for a long time that night. JMO.

good point. We only know what DB has said in various interviews. She thinks she checked on her before going to bed herself, she usually does, the room she was in was right next to the boys' and she checked on them finding them still awake and invited them into her room, etc.

But the boys must surely have been interviewed extensively by trained professionals and/or the PI and team hired by the Bs. DB has basically admitted that her memory of her exact actions in regard to checking on Lisa is sketchy fr that night. but the boys were awake when she retired for the night. They may have provided more info than mom could about when Lisa was last seen or heard alive.

 

[tlcya]

For what it's worth, I think Tanko is highly suspect but agree, I do not see him deciding to kidnap a baby. That is why I suspect if he was involved, he had a friend with him. One who might be female or may otherwise not fit the "Tanko" profile.

 

[Jewels53]

1)there are many threads in this forum with links to other research and stats that uphold why tanko does not fit the profile of a baby kidnapper
2)i would imagine it was more than mere statistics that kept the focus on DB
3)will not go round and round on this again

happy new year everyone!!

Redheadedgal we are on the same page and I totally agree with you. There is so much info in these LI threads we don't need to go round and round!

 

[Jewels53]

This is a press release from KCPD on 10-3-2014!

Police still seeking information three years after Lisa Irwin disappearance

snipped

Lisa was 10 months old when she went missing from her home in the 3600 block of North Lister. She was last seen about 6 p.m. October 3, 2011. She would be 4 years old on November 11. Since this time last year, Kansas City Police have investigated about 100 tips in the case, following them until each lead was exhausted.

Because the Lisa Irwin disappearance remains an active, open investigation, Kansas City Police will not grant any further interviews.

http://kcmo.gov/police/media-public...n-three-years-after-lisa-irwin-disappearance/

Note with the bbm Lisa is missing not kidnapped. I believe this is true as no one saw anyone take Lisa.


Lisa Irwin KCPD Missing Info

Lisa Irwin – Missing
Missing since Oct. 3, 2011

Lisa Irwin – Missing Missing since Oct. 3, 2011

 

[Razz]

Just to clarify: Mark Furman's response I'm referring to was with Megyn Kelly just the other evening on Kelly's special show about the missing baby Lisa. Debra and her husband were in her studio for that program.

I believe Furhman's reference to the absence of DNA, hair, fibers, etc meant from unknown sources.

Debra dressed Lisa in p.j.s yet the baby seen being carried by a man was in diapers.

I'd love to see a bird's eye view of the house and the surrounding area. Anyone have a link?

And as far as going round and round, and not wanting to do that again, I totally understand.

 

[askfornina]

Just to clarify: Mark Furman's response I'm referring to was with Megyn Kelly just the other evening on Kelly's special show about the missing baby Lisa. Debra and her husband were in her studio for that program.

I believe Furhman's reference to the absence of DNA, hair, fibers, etc meant from unknown sources.

Debra dressed Lisa in p.j.s yet the baby seen being carried by a man was in diapers.

I'd love to see a bird's eye view of the house and the surrounding area. Anyone have a link?

And as far as going round and round, and not wanting to do that again, I totally understand.

Google map link: https://www.google.com/maps/place/3...2!3m1!1s0x87c0f98353c40819:0x4120abbab2140c0a

 

[Razz]

Thank you Askfornina. I just reread your timeline. Who is Jersey? Did the couple see the man go to Jersey's front stepvas it appeats in map? And the dumpster was right behind Jersey's place. How does Jersey fit into all of this?

 

[askfornina]

Some facts about John 'Jersey' Tanko-
He was a homeless drifter in the neighborhood who would often do odd jobs for cash. He is currently incarcerated on vehicle tampering charges. He is the former boyfriend of a woman named Megan Wright. They broke up about a week or two before Lisa went missing.

Three of the Irwin's cell phones were on the kitchen counter the night of October 3rd. They were discovered missing when Lisa's father, Jeremy, returned home from work in the early morning hours. Megan Wright's phone number was dialed from one of the missing cellphones shortly before midnight that night.

Megan said she does not know the parents. The parents have said they do not know Megan. Megan's phone number did not appear on the Irwin phone records prior to Lisa's disappearance.

On October 3rd, Jersey was staying/working at a residence around the corner from the Irwin home while the owners were out of town. He was tending to their lawn.

In the video below, neighbor MH explains that Jersey was doing yard work that day at her next door neighbor's house. She saw him at around 1pm when she left to run errands. When she returned from her errands at around 9:30pm, she noticed that the sprinklers in the yard next door were still on. At around 11pm, she noticed they had been turned off. She assumes Jersey turned them off, which means he was possibly in the Irwin neighborhood near the time frame Lisa disappeared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4V8DZJnqWs&list=UUfj0f6PGTrAF4NjTg0l7--A

Shortly after midnight the night/morning Lisa went missing, a married couple said they saw a man walking down the street with an infant. The married couple saw the man walk toward the yard of the house Jersey was staying at. The next morning after Lisa was reported missing, police took footprint casts in the muddy area created by the sprinklers.

Here is a video of the wife explaining to CNN's Jim Spellman what her and her husband saw that night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EvF-nGYiV4&list=UUfj0f6PGTrAF4NjTg0l7--A

Starting at 6:15 in this video, CNN reporter Jim Spellman travels through the area where the man was seen walking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwc...AF4NjTg0l7--A&feature=player_detailpage#t=374

At 7:50 in that video, Jim points out a dumpster in the Townhouse parking lot that can almost be seen from the backyard. That dumpster was set on fire at approx 2:30am the night Lisa went missing. On September 16th, 2011, Megan Wright's car was set on fire in a different area of the same parking lot.

This is what Kansas City Police have said about Jersey:

Kansas City police say they have interviewed Tanko about Lisa's disappearance but said they have "moved on" from him. They have not cleared him or anyone as a suspect in the disappearance of the baby in case new evidence warrants a review. http://www.kctv5.com/story/16077691/picerno-witness-claims-handyman-paid-300-for-kidnapping

 

[redheadedgal]

We only know what DB has said in various interviews. She thinks she checked on her before going to bed herself, she usually does, the room she was in was right next to the boys' and she checked on them finding them still awake and invited them into her room, etc.

anyone else find it odd that she "remembers" checking on the boys and asking them to come to her bed but she doesn't know for sure if she checked on lisa? and why not bring the baby into her room as well? leave a sick baby all alone? and what mother drinks that much when she has a sick baby to care for? it all makes my blood boil and my hinky meter shoot sky high!

 

[redheadedgal]

Kansas City police say they have interviewed Tanko about Lisa's disappearance but said they have "moved on" from him. They have not cleared him or anyone as a suspect in the disappearance of the baby in case new evidence warrants a review. http://www.kctv5.com/story/16077691/...for-kidnapping

thank you for illuminating that at two months after the disappearance of lisa, police still couldn't "clear" the parents... since the parents are usually the first to be cleared (as LE works outwards from those inside the home), this should cause everyone concern imo.

is there a link since the above statement where KCMOPD clear both DB and JI that i've missed?

 

[Razz]

So....Jersey is Tanko. Did he have access to the house he was taking care of? Was the house searched? What are your thoughts on the dumpster burn? If he wasn't living in the house, where did Tanko live? And why would he want to check Debra's voicemail? Why would he take all 3 phones?

Who was the motorcyclist who came by the Irwins early in the morning to say he'd seen a guy with a baby, too. That seems odd. What was he doing at that time of the morning out on his bike.

And yes, I felt uneasy about Debra being unsure if she checked on Lisa but did check on the boys. But if she did have something to do with Lisa missing,.why not just say she did check on the baby at 10:40 and Lisa was fine and sleeping. Why would she lie about not remembering if she checked Lisa. Surely she knew that would put her in a bad light

Maybe the boys were taken with the stray kitten and wanted to be with it in Debra's room.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

The phone that made the call to Megan could have been found on the ground by Tanko if it had been dropped by whoever was carrying little Lisa's body to the river. A person finding a phone may have accessed voicemail to see if they could figure out who the phone belonged to.

I believe KCPD saying they don't need to talk to the mother again means "because we know it's pointless."

I would sure like to know how someone who was blackout drunk can remember enough about a (at most) 10 hour period of time to write 100 pages of information...especially when she was "asleep" or "unconscious" for about 6 of those hours.

 

[Razz]

In listening to the Irwin archives last night, I was stunned to learn Debta had been or was on anti anxiety medication. She must have been blotto.and it doesn't seem unreasonable that she didn't check on Lisa, leave the door unlocked or left the lights on.

Does anyone have a link where the motorcycle guy saw the man with the baby and.it's relation to Irwins, the dumpster and so forth.

If someone did take Lisa, it had to be someone who knew the Irwins. And it was the perfect night to take her. Husband gone, Debra was blotto,.the front door had been left open.........

And about the cadaver dog hit. How long does it take for a body to begin decomposing? There was no baby at 4:10am. Supposedly the baby was alive after Jeremy left for work around 5:00. Was there enough time for a body to decompose? And why the bedroom.and not her crib?

And wh do you say the river. I remarked on it yesterday because it seemed so nearby. But I don't think Debra, in her condition could have taken the body and dumped her there.

If anyone knows a link for a birdseye view of the entire area including the river and where the motorcyclist saw the man carrying the baby I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

In listening to the Irwin archives last night, I was stunned to learn Debta had been or was on anti anxiety medication. She must have been blotto.and it doesn't seem unreasonable that she didn't check on Lisa, leave the door unlocked or left the lights on.

Does anyone have a link where the motorcycle guy saw the man with the baby and.it's relation to Irwins, the dumpster and so forth.

If someone did take Lisa, it had to be someone who knew the Irwins. And it was the perfect night to take her. Husband gone, Debra was blotto,.the front door had been left open.........

And about the cadaver dog hit. How long does it take for a body to begin decomposing? There was no baby at 4:10am. Supposedly the baby was alive after Jeremy left for work around 5:00. Was there enough time for a body to decompose? And why the bedroom.and not her crib?

And wh do you say the river. I remarked on it yesterday because it seemed so nearby. But I don't think Debra, in her condition could have taken the body and dumped her there.

If anyone knows a link for a birdseye view of the entire area including the river and where the motorcyclist saw the man carrying the baby I would greatly appreciate it.

A body begins decomposing as soon as death occurs, as the cells die, and due to the incredible sense of smell dogs have, cadaver dogs can pick up on that scent right away. However, from what I understand, even human blood "decomposes" once outside the body, so in theory a cadaver dog could smell old blood and react to it but it doesn't mean with certainty that a dead body was ever there.

If the "hit" in the bedroom was because of Lisa, it may tie in to the accidental death scenario(s) that have been speculated upon.

I personally don't believe DB was impaired the way she claims to have been, but I also don't think she was necessarily the one who carried Lisa to the river. I do think Lisa was put in the river, though. I think DB claimed to be drunk so she could say she didn't remember anything.

I've always felt the cell phones were taken to make it look more like someone came in the house to rob it.

I think the family's expensive yet free lawyers have done a great spin job and have made it appear the family was far more cooperative than they actually were. KCPD isn't going to say anything bad about them while the investigation remains open.

 

[Razz]

According to the interview with the motorcycle guy,
it took him 2 weeks to call the cops and the only reason he did is because his cousin did it for him. Even though he picked Tanko out in a line up he'd had enough time to hear and see on TV what he looked like. This does not pass the smell test.

One of the things that disturbed me most about Megyn Kelly's initial interview was that Debra admitted to drinking like she did that night, at least twice a week. I'm going out on a limb and it's just my opinion, but mama has/ had a drinking problem.

Maybe relatives were concerned about Debra's drinking and decided to take matters into their own hands. Like finding a more suitable atmosphere for this sweet baby Lisa.

The cadaver dog only hit on one place. Right by the bed. No where else?! Debra's clothes, the backyard (which police harped on her about not searching back there. Why would she?!) IMO It wasn't the baby's decomposing body the dog hit on.

I am sorry to all of you who have done so much work on this. I jump in 3 years after it happened and am asking the same ol' questions.

But I can't say that Debra and Jeremy are lying.
There's more evidence to say they're not involved than there is showing they are involved. Unless, of course, police are sittng on something big and saving it for.......what?! IMO, they don't or they would have laid it out already.

And I'm not a huge fan of atty Tipicanoe(?!), but I do think someone needed (needs) to protect Debra and Jeremy not only from themselves but from the unrelenting media.

Without more compelling evidence to the contrary, I think it's quite possible Lisa is still out there.

JMO.