MO - Six Mohler family members for child sex crimes, Bates City 2009 #1

[Torsade]

I agree. I said way up threat it sounds like something only a woman would say. Maybe even their own mother.

Not necessarily. That could all have been misinterpreted. I thought of it myself. It was that little detail that made me buy this completely. I never dreamed another person on Earth would think to do that, unless they were JUST LIKE ME.

 

[SuziQ]

I'm all for everyone's right to a defense, due process and a fair trial. However, there are not many here on a victim's advocate sight that will have sympathy for anyone who commits a crime and is sent to prison for it.

 

[raeann]

Only about HALF the time. Sure most claim they were sexually abused themselves but polygraphed convicted child molesters tell a completely different story. Odd the ones that actually were...were the ones that typically lied and claimed they weren't.

You are completely correct....research on prison populations back this fact up many times....below is one link and a snip from it that shows a summation of research on the topic. The bolded statistic at the end is of interest in presenting the true numbers on this subject.

http://childprotection.lifetips.com/cat/63573/sex-offender-statistics/

Snipped from source above:
Characteristics of Offenders Who Violate and Assault Children

According to the Survey of Inmates of State Correctional Facilities by the U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics, the following statistics have been recorded concerning the characteristics of offenders who violate and assault children.

* Those inmates who were convicted of committing violent acts against children were more like to have been white, a percentage of nearly 70%, than any other race.
* White inmates were nearly three times more likely to have victimized a child than black inmates.
* About one in every seven Hispanic convicts had been convicted for a crime against a child.
* Nearly two-thirds of convicted child molesters and/or offenders were or had been married.
* Child molesters and offenders were more likely to have grown up in a two parent home and were more likely to have been molested as a child.
* Approximately 22% of child offenders reported having been sexually abused as a child.

 

[zinc]

If a grown man makes the conscious decision to sexually assault a child he made a choice. We all have FREE WILL.

Unless we don't.

An increasing number of neurological and sociological studies are showing that we have far less free will than most of us believe we do.

Don't take free will as a given. It may not be.

Why the heck should I give a rat's behind what happens to them behind bars?

Two reasons:

1. Because what happens to them behind bars has effects on what happens to all kinds of inmates behind bars, and on how all kinds of inmates behave when they get out. And that affects all of us.
2. Because you can rarely improve a situation by returning crime for crime, or taking an eye for an eye.

There is another reason, which not everyone here believes in: Believing that it is always wrong to do more harm (or allow more harm to be done) than is necessary to ensure our safety.

I do not support crime and I do not know if sex offenders can be rehabilitated or not. What I do know is that a justice system must be just and a prison system must be humane if we want them to make our world better instead of worse.

That doesn't mean "coddling" criminals. It does mean that civilized nations and people must always provide a fair trial and cannot subject criminals to cruel or dangerous conditions. Otherwise we stand to lose much more than we gain.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Not necessarily. That could all have been misinterpreted. I thought of it myself. It was that little detail that made me buy this completely. I never dreamed another person on Earth would think to do that, unless they were JUST LIKE ME.

Can you elaborate? I'm not understanding what you mean.

I'm out of Diet Pepsi...so maybe my brain just isn't working up to par:blushing:

 

[Linda7NJ]

Unless we don't.

An increasing number of neurological and sociological studies are showing that we have far less free will than most of us believe we do.

Don't take free will as a given. It may not be.




Two reasons:

1. Because what happens to them behind bars has effects on what happens to all kinds of inmates behind bars, and on how all kinds of inmates behave when they get out. And that affects all of us.
2. Because you can rarely improve a situation by returning crime for crime, or taking an eye for an eye.

There is another reason, which not everyone here believes in: Believing that it is always wrong to do more harm (or allow more harm to be done) than is necessary to ensure our safety.

I do not support crime and I do not know if sex offenders can be rehabilitated or not. What I do know is that a justice system must be just and a prison system must be humane if we want them to make our world better instead of worse.

That doesn't mean "coddling" criminals. It does mean that civilized nations and people must always provide a fair trial and cannot subject criminals to cruel or dangerous conditions. Otherwise we stand to lose much more than we gain.

You make good points.

I still don't care.

Frankly, I think they should either get LWOP or civil commitment until they are no longer a danger to others. I am SICK to DEATH of coming to this board everyday only to learn of another child victim! ENOUGH! They do NOT belong in society. Period.

 

[Torsade]

Can you elaborate? I'm not understanding what you mean.

I'm out of Diet Pepsi...so maybe my brain just isn't working up to par:blushing:

I din't quote right. It's been reported that an adult told the kids to write their memories down and bury them. I was saying that may have been misinterpreted somewhere, because I was a victim, and I did that. I thought of it on my own and never thought it had ever been done before or since. It was this sick detail that made me believe the whole story.
I'm sorry I was unclear. This one's tripping me all over the place. I should just stay out of it.

 

[SuziQ]

There is no cure for pedophiles. Children are their itch. Trying to tell a pedophile to leave children alone is like telling a straight man he has to suddenly be gay and can only sleep with men from now on. Sexually people are attracted to what they are attracted to and there is no changing that no matter how much we try.

 

[Trident]

We might have been separated at birth.

When a crime occurs, I ache for both the "perp" and the "victim". I don't understand the contention that any person who does a terrible thing is non-human or an animal.....doing terrible things to each other is an ancient habit of humans.
I have no problem with sending someone to prison because we as a society don't feel safe having them roaming about, but I loathe the fact that most of us turn our backs on them and don't give a damn about them once they are there. Many experience that as justice, but it turns my stomach. I'm constitutionally unable to give up on a fellow human being whether or not I think they can be rehabilitated. And our prisons offer very little chance of rehab.

And please don't get me started on the joy with which some people speak of prison rape. I understand many come to crime boards to vent strong feelings brought about by fear and anger, but I can never fully wrap my mind or heart around a belief that an adult man raping a child the most grotesque crime imaginable but an adult man raping another man is jim dandy.

Look me up if you ever get to do pro bono DP appeals. I've got 20 years of paralegal experience...all of it in civil lit, but I'm a quick study!

BBM. It is my belief, quite literally, that some people are not totally human in the way most understand it and I further believe this is where all of our horrendous crimes from. While I don't wear my religion on my sleeve, or bring God into a discussion to back up my opinions unless someone else does first, I do take Jesus' words about some being children of their father the devil to mean just what He said. The others, more innocent ones, would be children of Adam.

I have no intentions of turning this into an OT religious discusion, but this IS my belief.

My opinion only

 

[Linda7NJ]

I din't quote right. It's been reported that an adult told the kids to write their memories down and bury them. I was saying that may have been misinterpreted somewhere, because I was a victim, and I did that. I thought of it on my own and never thought it had ever been done before or since. It was this sick detail that made me believe the whole story.
I'm sorry I was unclear. This one's tripping me all over the place. I should just stay out of it.

Please, don't stay out of it!

I think it's really interesting that you also did that with the jars. May I ask if you're female? Did you do it to forget the abuse? For evidence later? Do you remember WHY you did it? I'm sorry for asking so many questions, if you're not comfortable answering...that's okay

The devil is always in the details.

 

[Kimster]

The misconception about the percentage of adult offenders that were abused as children may come from another statistic entirely. I was told by a psychologist who works with JUVENILE sex offenders that JUVENILE sex offenders have been most likely abused or exposed to a sexual encounter from a peer.

Also, both the JUVENILE probation department and the psychologist said that a VERY SMALL percentage of JUVENILE offenders will reoffend as adults. This is based on juveniles who were arrested while still being juveniles.

 

[Linda7NJ]

From CNN :


"I believe that there is, and I believe every investigator here, after seeing the evidence, believes there's more victims," Alumbaugh said. "Pedophiles don't stop at one."

"Alumbaugh said, adding that he expected additional charges based on other victim statements.

"Investigators have been working the case since August, he said, when the first of the now-grown children came forward"


http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/11/missouri.child.sexual.abuse/index.html

 

[PAXIMUS]

Paximus--I really enjoy reading your posts. However, I don't always agree with you. I do appreciate your succinctly stated positions. Refreshingly honest. My two best friends are attorneys and I smile to myself as I recognize many of your comments. With your stated desire to defend perps (honorable indeed) and my position as a child advocate, I can see us coming face to face across a courtroom. I have the greatest respect for your objectivity and sense of justice. I still strongly believe in the justice system but I know we've got lots of work to make it better. That's why I'm an active supporter of Crime Victims United.

I also strongly abhor any jesting concerning prison rape or violence. It is inappropriate and vile. I want to thank you for reminding us about this. I agree that our prisons are not a place of rehabilitation. Our youth facilities are possibly even worse. I believe that we, as a society, have far to go in working with criminals in a fair, just, meaningful, and safe manner.

I cannot accept that most abused children grow up to be abusers or even that most abusers were abused as children. I've spent 11 years researching this and speaking to every psychiatrist I can corner. I can't believe that as eight of my children were horribly abused. Are they forever marked and/or doomed? As I've openly stated, one of my sons is an offender and one is addicted to *advertiser censored*. One of the female victims is developmentally disabled and freely trafficked as a prostitute. As far as I know, though, the other five are hard working, caring young people who are struggling with their past demons. I have to believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel. I can assure you that I watch them with an eagle eye and am always ready to set boundaries or to reinforce positive behaviors. I call them on any questionable behavior. Because I also have five older children, I am blessed with many grandchildren. I am watchful, trust me.

That said, what do we do with the offenders? What do you suggest we do with known and convicted pedophiles? How many strikes do we allow? Do you support the civil commitment system? I've watched in horror as that system has been exposed as having many flaws. Then what?

I stand quietly by and listen to the hurled taunts and calls for castration but I won't join in. Two men irreversibly hurt my young children but I wish no physical pain on these rapists. That would take me down to their level of evil. I guess what I want are viable answers and solutions to this never-ending dilemma. If pedophiles won't and can't stop, how do we protect the children?

Thank you for the kind words. It is not easy for me to sit here, especially with someone like you in attendance, your children being victims of such atrocities, and say what I say, but it is what I believe and it is who I am and I cant run away from that. In the end we probably agree on a lot more than we disagree on and the things we do disagree on I am sure we can use to learn from eachother.

I have seen people acquitted and return to the same life of crime that I helped them get out of and let me assure you I dont always sleep well at night because of that, but for all those sleepless nights I am rewarded with taking someone home and dropping them off and watching their children run and jump in to their arms while their wife stands at the door with tears in her eyes, having finally returned home after being locked up in a cage like an animal, taken away from his children and loving wife for something that he had nothing at all to do with. On those nights I sleep like a baby and it makes up for all the bad nights in between.

Like I said, we often have to make difficult decisions in life and tradoffs that we dont always like to make but it is what it is, there is the good, the bad and the ugly and then there are those of us who just do what we need to do and hope it works out ok in the end.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The misconception about the percentage of adult offenders that were abused as children may come from another statistic entirely. I was told by a psychologist who works with JUVENILE sex offenders that JUVENILE sex offenders have been most likely abused or exposed to a sexual encounter from a peer.

Also, both the JUVENILE probation department and the psychologist said that a VERY SMALL percentage of JUVENILE offenders will reoffend as adults. This is based on juveniles who were arrested while still being juveniles.

Again, I strongly disagree.

The stats are basically the same for the same type of offences. A juvenile that preys on younger or smaller children using force, threats or demonstrating grooming behaviors has the same propensity to continually re offend and their history is almost identical to adults committing the same crimes.

Juveniles are often labeled as "sex offenders" and ordered into treatment for non violent offenses. I knew of a boy sentenced to 18 months into a RTC for sex offenders for repeatedly snapping the bra strap of another student. While inappropriate, it's hardly the same thing. If the stats are skewed at all, it's due to improper labeling of the juvenile.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

You are aware that statistics show that about 98% of all pedophiles are such because they were abused as children? These "sick and twisted child molesting freaks" as they are commonly referred to were children who were harmed once themselves.

I don't know what the answer is, they often do get out of prison and do it again, it is a compulsion, it is a sickness. All I know is that treating them like animals and calling them names isn't the answer, all we can do is protect our children from them by locking them up and trying our best to reach them and help them heal from their own past abuse.

In spite of what everyone says, that we cannot rehabilitate such offenders, I say, how do you know that, our prisons are NOT places of rehabilitation, I don't think a lot of people realize how bad our prisons are and how little actual rehabilitation goes on there. I think we should spend more time and money reforming our prison system than anything else. At least that may give some folks who made a mistake a fighting chance to turn their lives around and contribute in a positive way to society.

It also shocks me on these forums (not so much here) how casually people make light of prison rape, going so far as to say things to encourage certain offenders "get theirs" when they finally get put in prison. Lets be clear, rape is never ok prison or no prison, rape is NEVER ok and making jokes about prison rape is unacceptable.

I respectfully do not agree with your first paragraph.

Pedophiles can be predators and never suffer from any kind of abuses in their childhood.

If being abused as a child were the prerequisite, since there are millions of children raped and molested yearly, then we would have millions upon millions of pedophiles abusing children. We do not. And more women are abused than males so that would mean that we definitely would see many more sexual female predators than we do.

Contrary to belief the vast majority of those who were abused as children do not go on to commit crimes against children.

I will however agree with you that each and every pedophile is a sick,evil, twisted, deviant monster who preys on vulnerable children.

imo

 

[PAXIMUS]

I respectfully do not agree with your first paragraph.

Pedophiles can be predators and never suffer from any kind of abuses in their childhood.

If being abused as a child were the prerequisite, since there are millions of children raped and molested yearly, then we would have millions upon millions of pedophiles abusing children. We do not. And more women are abused than males so that would mean that we definitely would see many more sexual female predators than we do.

Contrary to belief the vast majority of those who were abused as children do not go on to commit crimes against children.

I will however agree with you that each and every pedophile is a sick,evil, twisted, deviant monster who preys on vulnerable children.

imo

Thats true, most children who have been abused do NOT become abusers themselves, but those who DO make up a large percentage of the pool of paedophiles.

I certainly do NOT go out looking for sex criminals to defend nor do I advertise such, I am much happier trying to help someone busted for drunk driving get his DL back so he can go to work and feed his family after making a stupid mistake, but if someone comes to me for help, no matter what they have done, I will help them, I am obligated to and they are entitled to the help.

 

[Linda7NJ]

http://www.ccoso.org/library%20articles/PCSOT%20Research%20Overview.pdf

page 10 describes one study.

I know I read another, larger study a few years ago that found the same thing....just can't find it online.

 

[southcitymom]

Thank you for this excellent, eloquent post. I agree with all of your sentiments.

Unless we don't.

An increasing number of neurological and sociological studies are showing that we have far less free will than most of us believe we do.

Don't take free will as a given. It may not be.



Two reasons:

1. Because what happens to them behind bars has effects on what happens to all kinds of inmates behind bars, and on how all kinds of inmates behave when they get out. And that affects all of us.
2. Because you can rarely improve a situation by returning crime for crime, or taking an eye for an eye.

There is another reason, which not everyone here believes in: Believing that it is always wrong to do more harm (or allow more harm to be done) than is necessary to ensure our safety.

I do not support crime and I do not know if sex offenders can be rehabilitated or not. What I do know is that a justice system must be just and a prison system must be humane if we want them to make our world better instead of worse.

That doesn't mean "coddling" criminals. It does mean that civilized nations and people must always provide a fair trial and cannot subject criminals to cruel or dangerous conditions. Otherwise we stand to lose much more than we gain.

 

[Kimster]

Again, I strongly disagree.

The stats are basically the same for the same type of offences. A juvenile that preys on younger or smaller children using force, threats or demonstrating grooming behaviors has the same propensity to continually re offend and their history is almost identical to adults committing the same crimes.

Juveniles are often labeled as "sex offenders" and ordered into treatment for non violent offenses. I knew of a boy sentenced to 18 months into a RTC for sex offenders for repeatedly snapping the bra strap of another student. While inappropriate, it's hardly the same thing. If the stats are skewed at all, it's due to improper labeling of the juvenile.

This information was given to me by a juvenile probation officer and a child psychologist who works for the same county. They work with juvenile offenders in my county on a daily basis. The case that I know about first hand was not as innocent as snapping the bra strap of another juvenile. It was about a 14 year old boy who molested a 4 year old girl.

 

[southcitymom]

BBM. It is my belief, quite literally, that some people are not totally human in the way most understand it and I further believe this is where all of our horrendous crimes from. While I don't wear my religion on my sleeve, or bring God into a discussion to back up my opinions unless someone else does first, I do take Jesus' words about some being children of their father the devil to mean just what He said. The others, more innocent ones, would be children of Adam.

I have no intentions of turning this into an OT religious discusion, but this IS my belief.

My opinion only

Hey Trident,

I didn't mean to ignore your earlier post to me, but, like you, I was afraid of getting off on a religious tangent. Personally, I love getting off on religious tangents because I filter everything I read hear through my own spritual perceptions, but going to far down that road irritates some folks.

In any event, I respect the belief you have put forth here even as I don't share it. I would write more but alas I am at Tae Kwon Do with my sons and I am too long-winded to tap things out on my phone! Maybe we can discuss a bit more later without going to far off the rails!