Roselvr
Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs
Her LE would have had Grant's available to them for parabon
MO MO - St Louis, BlkFem 8-11, 54UFMO, in abandoned bldg, Feb'83
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Her LE would have had Grant's available to them for parabon
Bit of hope
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A missing young couple from Belgium laid in a morgue in Milan for ages, until a concerned citizen saw the light and both knew Dutch and Italian language, advocating for them. Yes, it happens. Sorry, for you Sloane and Rookie, you had/have to deal with this things.
chemicalpixie
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A thought I had re: her height and how skinny she was — could she have had Marfan's Syndrome? I had a friend who had it, and along with being ridiculously tall and skinny, they also had spinal issues (although in their case it was scoliosis rather than spina bifida occoulta). Not sure if there's any way to diagnose that post-mortem, but it was just something I was thinking.
Additionally, could she have been adopted? If she was adopted out from another family (possibly even one in Canada — given her estimated birthdate, it's possible that she could have been a part of the Sixties Scoop — perhaps she was a particularly dark-skinned Indigenous girl or even biracial; though black children were also over-represented in the Canadian welfare system at the time), then it would explain why no one has recognized her, particularly if her killer was part of her adoptive family (though it's also possible that her adoptive family just didn't care enough to report her missing). It's a common theory that Hope Doe wasn't from St. Louis, so it's remained a question as to how she ended up there. If she was adopted, perhaps she was trying to return to her birth family, like it's reported several of the children adopted out in the Sixties Scoop did? If this is the case, it's possible that her birth family would not know about her death, or her Marfan's, and could still be looking for her, but at the age that she would be today (roughly mid-40s). I'm not sure how one would go about getting adoption records from that time period unless you're related to someone involved, but if anyone knows, please share — I'd love to look into this further if it means this little girl could finally be identified.
Additionally, could she have been adopted? If she was adopted out from another family (possibly even one in Canada — given her estimated birthdate, it's possible that she could have been a part of the Sixties Scoop — perhaps she was a particularly dark-skinned Indigenous girl or even biracial; though black children were also over-represented in the Canadian welfare system at the time), then it would explain why no one has recognized her, particularly if her killer was part of her adoptive family (though it's also possible that her adoptive family just didn't care enough to report her missing). It's a common theory that Hope Doe wasn't from St. Louis, so it's remained a question as to how she ended up there. If she was adopted, perhaps she was trying to return to her birth family, like it's reported several of the children adopted out in the Sixties Scoop did? If this is the case, it's possible that her birth family would not know about her death, or her Marfan's, and could still be looking for her, but at the age that she would be today (roughly mid-40s). I'm not sure how one would go about getting adoption records from that time period unless you're related to someone involved, but if anyone knows, please share — I'd love to look into this further if it means this little girl could finally be identified.
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RookieInvestigator
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Do you know how LE can apply for the grant with Parabon?
here's my theory
Buckle up and warning it gets a little graphic but it has to
there's some misinformation if he strangled and killed somebody and was going on trial for that or if he just raped them but there's no doubt that strangulations in his Mo that being said it says that he raped his niece and the charges were dropped... by a family member? possibly. could this be a family member of Alton Coleman I think so if not I think maybe this person in was by this person I mean hope though that she why is a child who had ties to St Louis would be coming down here and her caretaker just took Alton's word for it that he transported her here and what not and before any verification could be made by the person died and only person knowing that help though it came to St Louis would be gone the same getting away with it Scott free. I mean think about it long distance phone calls back then were expensive if you didn't have a long distance calling plan or credit card you won't making a long distance phone call Chicago Waukegan to St Louis that is a long-distance bill and call that will cost a pretty penny and trust me I was engaged to a guy in the Navy up there... so let's say he befriends her like him and his girlfriend did too many of their victims he befriends her she said she has family in St Louis he's headed there for whatever reason he tells grandma or whatever caregiver hey I'll give her a ride you want to go see her family she's like yeah you need a break blah blah whatever she ends up here her female here doesn't know what he knows no verification will be made that she ever came down here and he rapes and kills her.
the decapitation part okay so that kind of rope is still around and I actually cut my hand on it recently tieing my kayak up to the roof of the truck and it wasn't that difficult to do and and it was a good cut, it still hurts. so the theory of the Rope being the main tool for decapitation minus the spinal cord I don't think that's if far Theory whatsoever
so let's say hypothetically in the throes of passion or she's putting up a fight and he's using it too much power he's pulling the cord the Rope way too tight. He's not just killing her or killed her he is now 90% decapitate her. now if the use of the word hacksaw on the spinal cord was literal or figurative I don't know but I would think it'd be easier to sever the spinal cord or the brain stem with a hacksaw at that point Anyway. based on what his crime was committed there may be no clean up needed and he just dumped the body because he didn't want the cops all about where he was assuming he committed this crime near where he was staying which most Killers tend to do.
does anyone know if he had any ties whatsoever to St Louis? Not that the theory hinges on that but it definitely gives it more weight
What do y'all think
Buckle up and warning it gets a little graphic but it has to
there's some misinformation if he strangled and killed somebody and was going on trial for that or if he just raped them but there's no doubt that strangulations in his Mo that being said it says that he raped his niece and the charges were dropped... by a family member? possibly. could this be a family member of Alton Coleman I think so if not I think maybe this person in was by this person I mean hope though that she why is a child who had ties to St Louis would be coming down here and her caretaker just took Alton's word for it that he transported her here and what not and before any verification could be made by the person died and only person knowing that help though it came to St Louis would be gone the same getting away with it Scott free. I mean think about it long distance phone calls back then were expensive if you didn't have a long distance calling plan or credit card you won't making a long distance phone call Chicago Waukegan to St Louis that is a long-distance bill and call that will cost a pretty penny and trust me I was engaged to a guy in the Navy up there... so let's say he befriends her like him and his girlfriend did too many of their victims he befriends her she said she has family in St Louis he's headed there for whatever reason he tells grandma or whatever caregiver hey I'll give her a ride you want to go see her family she's like yeah you need a break blah blah whatever she ends up here her female here doesn't know what he knows no verification will be made that she ever came down here and he rapes and kills her.
the decapitation part okay so that kind of rope is still around and I actually cut my hand on it recently tieing my kayak up to the roof of the truck and it wasn't that difficult to do and and it was a good cut, it still hurts. so the theory of the Rope being the main tool for decapitation minus the spinal cord I don't think that's if far Theory whatsoever
so let's say hypothetically in the throes of passion or she's putting up a fight and he's using it too much power he's pulling the cord the Rope way too tight. He's not just killing her or killed her he is now 90% decapitate her. now if the use of the word hacksaw on the spinal cord was literal or figurative I don't know but I would think it'd be easier to sever the spinal cord or the brain stem with a hacksaw at that point Anyway. based on what his crime was committed there may be no clean up needed and he just dumped the body because he didn't want the cops all about where he was assuming he committed this crime near where he was staying which most Killers tend to do.
does anyone know if he had any ties whatsoever to St Louis? Not that the theory hinges on that but it definitely gives it more weight
What do y'all think
okay also my other idea is maybe we're all overthinking it. Not that it doesn't deserve to be over thought but I keep having to tell myself with this case Sarah keep it simple stupid.
I'm thinking she was 90% decapitated and then stuffed into some kind of bag transported to the dump site and when he got there for whatever reason was like you know what I need to cut his head off found a sharp object and... done.
Head gets shoved into transport bag transport bag experiment to River and chucked into River. I mean that would just be the quickest easiest way I'm thinking that would assure the best chance of it not being recovered. I mean I can think of a dozen places in St Louis in the 80s to ditch a body or head I'm just a game for convenience maybe in panic for whatever reason that would be what I would do if I was in this killer situation.
also the idea of somebody stumbling across it in the abandoned building prior to the body being discovered or even the people who discovered it or stumbling upon it in a different location and being so shocked that they mediately dispose of it in same way or whatever way and never speak of it again I don't think that is too far off either. when asking a couple friends what would you do if you found a human head and didn't want to be dealing with police and drama and everything plus it would be traumatizing what would you do if a ball in a roundabout way said get rid of it and just nope never talk about it again no matter what anyone nobody would know something you take to the Grave. So I think it's human nature to kind of rid of a situation when you stumble upon it for lack of a better word and then try to just block it out.
Maybe the discoverer of the head was terrified that the killer would come after them especially after the body was found hence why they never spoke of it. Whatever you want to subscribe to just kind of try to take that into consideration as well
unless y'all think I'm way off base I'm open to that too., but in my opinion I think the decapitation was just an accident and then a task that had to be completed per se. I don't think it was initially to hide her identification I just think that was a lucky byproduct of The Killers dumping. well lucky for the killer not for anyone else.
I don't think she's going to show up as missing cuz I don't think anyone thought she was missing. I think her family elsewhere thought she was here in St Louis her family in St Louis thougbt She was elsewhere and like some familys do people drifted apart people passed away no verification could be made that she actually arrived here safe and sound and then once here actually met up with her family and grew up to be an adult
if the killer was Alton Coleman I don't doubt that he had planned to rape her possibly kill her but I don't think he planned to get away with it or at least have her Beyond identified and well I guess eventually get away with it as he was executed.
one could argue that maybe this is what started him on his balls to the wall Killing Spree like he figured he'd go down for this so might as well go out with a blast
I'm thinking she was 90% decapitated and then stuffed into some kind of bag transported to the dump site and when he got there for whatever reason was like you know what I need to cut his head off found a sharp object and... done.
Head gets shoved into transport bag transport bag experiment to River and chucked into River. I mean that would just be the quickest easiest way I'm thinking that would assure the best chance of it not being recovered. I mean I can think of a dozen places in St Louis in the 80s to ditch a body or head I'm just a game for convenience maybe in panic for whatever reason that would be what I would do if I was in this killer situation.
also the idea of somebody stumbling across it in the abandoned building prior to the body being discovered or even the people who discovered it or stumbling upon it in a different location and being so shocked that they mediately dispose of it in same way or whatever way and never speak of it again I don't think that is too far off either. when asking a couple friends what would you do if you found a human head and didn't want to be dealing with police and drama and everything plus it would be traumatizing what would you do if a ball in a roundabout way said get rid of it and just nope never talk about it again no matter what anyone nobody would know something you take to the Grave. So I think it's human nature to kind of rid of a situation when you stumble upon it for lack of a better word and then try to just block it out.
Maybe the discoverer of the head was terrified that the killer would come after them especially after the body was found hence why they never spoke of it. Whatever you want to subscribe to just kind of try to take that into consideration as well
unless y'all think I'm way off base I'm open to that too., but in my opinion I think the decapitation was just an accident and then a task that had to be completed per se. I don't think it was initially to hide her identification I just think that was a lucky byproduct of The Killers dumping. well lucky for the killer not for anyone else.
I don't think she's going to show up as missing cuz I don't think anyone thought she was missing. I think her family elsewhere thought she was here in St Louis her family in St Louis thougbt She was elsewhere and like some familys do people drifted apart people passed away no verification could be made that she actually arrived here safe and sound and then once here actually met up with her family and grew up to be an adult
if the killer was Alton Coleman I don't doubt that he had planned to rape her possibly kill her but I don't think he planned to get away with it or at least have her Beyond identified and well I guess eventually get away with it as he was executed.
one could argue that maybe this is what started him on his balls to the wall Killing Spree like he figured he'd go down for this so might as well go out with a blast
IDK but I feel regardless of the perp the idea of the decapitation in the unidentified acacian coming as a byproduct of the original rape and murder is not a theory that should be dismissed. I feel like we're giving this perp way too much credit. And by doing so were overlooking the shy guys the ones who we wouldn't think would be able to decapitate a child. Think about it is there people out there that maybe your acquaintances with and you think okay yeah maybe they're capable of rape but not decapitation of a child!
** warning I'm about to get graphic
so when an infant is raped a lot of times they die because they have a blunt force trauma to the back of their head and their skull is crushed. It's not that the rapist was meaning to kill the child or do so by crushing the skull but that's what happened. and they found out it's because when the rapist ejaculates they grab onto the babys head and push down. If a babies on their stomach this causes to skull to shatter allowing for death to be by brain injury blunt force trauma to the Head.
okay horribly gruesome example I know... sorry. Its I just I feel the case for accidental decapitation has to be thoroughly made especially says it hasn't come up in the theories yet.
but now you see what I'm getting at with the decapitation being due to the rope being pulled too tightly or even back and forth and too tightly but people have hanged themselves and then decapitated by rope alone.
so let's continue not giving this guy much more credit than what he deserves when it comes to intelligence. When it comes to dumping a body living south of St Louis I can think of at least five areas in the metropolitan area I could go to and then several locations from which to pick to deter body from there same with in the 80s. If you had to dispose of a body you'd
** warning I'm about to get graphic
so when an infant is raped a lot of times they die because they have a blunt force trauma to the back of their head and their skull is crushed. It's not that the rapist was meaning to kill the child or do so by crushing the skull but that's what happened. and they found out it's because when the rapist ejaculates they grab onto the babys head and push down. If a babies on their stomach this causes to skull to shatter allowing for death to be by brain injury blunt force trauma to the Head.
okay horribly gruesome example I know... sorry. Its I just I feel the case for accidental decapitation has to be thoroughly made especially says it hasn't come up in the theories yet.
but now you see what I'm getting at with the decapitation being due to the rope being pulled too tightly or even back and forth and too tightly but people have hanged themselves and then decapitated by rope alone.
so let's continue not giving this guy much more credit than what he deserves when it comes to intelligence. When it comes to dumping a body living south of St Louis I can think of at least five areas in the metropolitan area I could go to and then several locations from which to pick to deter body from there same with in the 80s. If you had to dispose of a body you'd
no whereabouts to go and once they are the opportunity for a dump site would present itself but I think this can be said about any major metropolitan area though I do think the killer if not was local either had family here or had some reason to be here and no of this location because let's be honest he had no issue walking in that basement nobody would give him a second look if there were any crackheads down there he could scare them off this was not going to be an issue for him he knew where to go it was just picking building any building at least that's how I feel about it. that being said keep in mind he's just a run-of-the-mill type of guy he wouldn't know that cold basements could keep things preserved per say a body. I, personally believe he thought and nobody's going to mess with her down here nobody's going to be looking for a headless little girl nobody's going to be rummaging through stuff by the time they find her if they find her Jay not going to be much left not worried about smell because it's funky down here is a nasty abandoned. a plus who's going to be in a dirty abandoned basement anyway and nobody there any one's going to listen to or give any steak and even if they say they found her nobody's going to come running down there thinking they did
like that's my thought when it comes to this guy State of Mind as he was dumping. I'll keep in mind I'm always second-guessing myself like if this guy is as dumb as I say he is then he just pulled off one of the biggest murder mysteries in history or at least modern history...by accident? stranger things have happened I guess.
like that's my thought when it comes to this guy State of Mind as he was dumping. I'll keep in mind I'm always second-guessing myself like if this guy is as dumb as I say he is then he just pulled off one of the biggest murder mysteries in history or at least modern history...by accident? stranger things have happened I guess.
does anyone know have they submitted her DNA to like ancestry.com or whatever where you can send your DNA and they'll tell you if you have siblings in their database? I know this could cause issues as to convicting her killer but let's face it I think the perp is dead and gone by now and it will give answers. I think this case is going to be about identifying hope doe and not necessarily convicting the killer, though both would be ideal
plausible? I think I could give victus on circumstantial evidence alone and I'm not a lawyer I guess what I'm saying is cases have been brought to court with LESS circumstantial evidence than this and they have convicted killer though I hate convictions on circumstance alone
But I think this has more than enough circumstantial evidence to get a conviction in Alton Coleman if he were still alive
But I think this has more than enough circumstantial evidence to get a conviction in Alton Coleman if he were still alive
I just I think this is the best thing going you've got somebody out there his MO is Raven strangulation accidental decapitations of byproducts of strangulation by rope it fits the time frame he's got the same victim type it's in the Midwest I just think it's the best lead that's been out there for a while and I've been following this way too long to just like throw that out As nonchalant type banter.
Its '83
I r le.
someone tips you off to this guy says his thing is raping strangulation
, u have to admit this guy would be at the top of your suspect list like top top like you think he's good for it
my first thing I'd want to talk to him and I would be like where were you January February 83 if he didn't have an airtight alibi I try to find connections to St Louis and go from there. if he's the killer the dots will connect if they don't connect he's not the guy
But you've got to admit that would be a really awkward coincidence
I'm wondering if le would tell just tell like jq citizen if they ruled him out or not... yet?
why do I have a feeling I'm about to answer my own question SMH facepalm I need an aspirin lol
Its '83
I r le.
someone tips you off to this guy says his thing is raping strangulation
, u have to admit this guy would be at the top of your suspect list like top top like you think he's good for it
my first thing I'd want to talk to him and I would be like where were you January February 83 if he didn't have an airtight alibi I try to find connections to St Louis and go from there. if he's the killer the dots will connect if they don't connect he's not the guy
But you've got to admit that would be a really awkward coincidence
I'm wondering if le would tell just tell like jq citizen if they ruled him out or not... yet?
why do I have a feeling I'm about to answer my own question SMH facepalm I need an aspirin lol
I just feel like he's it he's it like it's possible it's plausible but it is
like it's him how could it not be?
dad what I wouldn't give to know where he was in February of 83 of course but then technology is not what it is today and holes to be punched in almost any alibi
my bad I am totally getting tunnel vision but it's totally him how could he not be him somebody please talk me out of this before I call the police and ramble off the Alton Coleman thing which I'm sure they've heard, but maybe not I mean maybe not...
Anyone aware if le is a breast of this scenario with Alton Coleman?
like it's him how could it not be?
dad what I wouldn't give to know where he was in February of 83 of course but then technology is not what it is today and holes to be punched in almost any alibi
my bad I am totally getting tunnel vision but it's totally him how could he not be him somebody please talk me out of this before I call the police and ramble off the Alton Coleman thing which I'm sure they've heard, but maybe not I mean maybe not...
Anyone aware if le is a breast of this scenario with Alton Coleman?
Bit of hope
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@Roselvr is very skilled in research into adoption cases, what I understood, but I really don't know if she has time or even the stats needed (girl not identified, no (adoption) name) to take a look. Maybe she can reflect on your suggestion. Maybe somebody out there remembers something about a missing adopted girl, or a child in the welfare system, moved, suddenly disappeared with a "story" and lost contact. (like the story of Maggy and Beth Doe)
Bit of hope
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Hi, and welcome. I need to say I have to get used to your posts. I don't have problems with graphic but the thing is....there are so many words that you loose me. My interpretation of it. You think Alton Coleman could be the killer. Just rape doesn't exist....You think the rope is so sharp he decapitated her "coincidently" and dumped the body near where he was staying.....
His partner in crime will no longer be executed, maybe she can still be questioned?
Jan 3 2019
Debra Denise Brown was Indiana's last woman on death row. She will no longer be executed.
"A 56-year-old woman who was Indiana's sole female death row inmate will not be executed for her role in the murder of a 7-year-old girl in Gary in 1984.
Last month, the Lake County prosecutor and the Indiana Attorney General’s Office signed an agreement withdrawing a demand for the execution of Debra Denise Brown because of mental disability.
It is an appeal Brown's attorneys have made multiple times since she was sentenced to death in June 1986, alongside co-defendant Alton Coleman. Together, the couple was convicted of carrying out a 53-day crime spree across multiple Midwestern states that resulted in eight killings, seven rapes, three kidnappings and 14 armed robberies."
Bit of hope
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I agree, with the above statement. Reality shows....so called sweet, successful, community guys do...
Why talking about raping a baby in so many words and the effects of it. There are other way's to make your point. Doing "the act", and you are severely sick doing this things, yes, you would do damage in many other ways and not thinking about that, making you scum of the earth.
Never thought about dumping a body. I would think you would dump a body very, very far away from your surroundings.
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Bit of hope
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Is this because a change of law? I'm against the death penalty....(although looking at pictures of victims and reading about Kraft.....eye for an eye...I got sooooo very angry, as an example, but no....in the end I never could to that, and I really don't want to) so I wonder what happened in this case.
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Moonwalker9
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I Think Alton Coleman is a strong suspect. He was not incarcerated at the time. LE got tunnel vision on Vernon Brown I think. Brown lived in st louis and his mo was killing young girls often decapitating them and often leaving them in abandoned houses. He was the prime suspect here but never confessed or linked to it. Coleman has been mentioned before in this thread as Well as on reddit. Heres the link Alton Coleman and the St. Louis Jane Doe : UnresolvedMysteries
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