Found Deceased MO - Toni Anderson, 20, North Kansas City, 15 Jan 2017 #6

[n_6CC]

Did officer(s) call in the pullover?
Did officer(s) run the plates?
Did officer(s) know Toni personally?
If so, how?

I apologize if some don't appreciate the direction of this questioning, but in the beginning everyone was thinking that the perpetrator would have been someone who knew her from the club. The thought would have been that she was followed by a stalker.

However... If this path through NKC was a common one for Toni, these early morning pullovers were potentially routine. Officers might even know her car by sight.

Stalking doesn't have to begin at chrome is my point.

If any of those questions reveals a closer relationship between the people that pulled her over, then a whole bunch of new questions arise.

So when I see terms like "cover up" and "gross negligence" in an article about a PD, isn't it fair to question this topic transparently as opposed to behind the scenes?

Isn't that what allowed the past behavior to perpetuate over many years?

http://godoymedical.net/physical-signssymptoms-strangulation/


Again, I apologize for going down a path some might not like, but this form of rendering someone dead/unconscious -- unable to swim out an open window in their car, while sinking in a river -- is actually a thing.

I think this method also could apply to a drug deal gone bad/CI/Snitch scenario, but also to the scenario of someone who last saw Toni.


Exclusion is how you explain things, and how the officers were excluded is one thing that is not clear.

I personally look at things via probability and motivation. So I haven't ruled out accident or foul play. But how can anyone here think they have the information needed to exclude either of those things? We simply don't.

Valid Post MM- thanks


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[SpaceToast]

I just wanted to chime in regarding the theory that this was a drug deal gone wrong, which I've seen suggested pretty regularly at various places in these threads. Over the years, I've known quite a few drug dealers in my city, from 45 yo men that have financed their entire adult lives selling cocaine and pills to 20 yos who trade their Adderall prescriptions for weed every month. I can tell you unequivocally that none of them would ever in a million years set up a drug transaction at 4:30am in a public park a mile down a deserted road just outside of a small suburb. In fact, that would probably be the absolute last place they would ever set up a drug deal.

First of all, most of the time this kind of thing just happens at someone's house. That eliminates almost all risk of being caught unless one of the parties is an informant/cop (wherein you're screwed regardless). Second, if you did for some reason need to meet somewhere other than one of the parties homes, you would do it in a populated place during the day, where you can blend into the crowd and avoid suspicion. The parking lot of a big box store or grocery during business hours is common for this scenario. Going to a public park, which is undoubtedly marked for no trespassing after sundown, is an awful place:

-you're transporting drugs in one of the only cars out on the road in the middle of the night (in this case, when the highway patrol has warned people off the roads due to weather)

- if any LEO sees you turning down the dead end road to the park he's going to immediately be even more suspicious

- the park is going to be posted "No trespassing sundown to sunset", so LE immediately has probable cause to search both party's vehicles/person

Doing something like this is all about blending into the background and hiding in plain sight. No drug dealer would put themselves in a situation where they would stick out like a sore thumb like this. It would be like asking to get arrested.



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[xmsmadex]

I just wanted to chime in regarding the theory that this was a drug deal gone wrong, which I've seen suggested pretty regularly at various places in these threads. Over the years, I've known quite a few drug dealers in my city, from 45 yo men that have financed their entire adult lives selling cocaine and pills to 20 yos who trade their Adderall prescriptions for weed every month. I can tell you unequivocally that none of them would ever in a million years set up a drug transaction at 4:30am in a public park a mile down a deserted road just outside of a small suburb. In fact, that would probably be the absolute last place they would ever set up a drug deal.

First of all, most of the time this kind of thing just happens at someone's house. That eliminates almost all risk of being caught unless one of the parties is an informant/cop (wherein you're screwed regardless). Second, if you did for some reason need to meet somewhere other than one of the parties homes, you would do it in a populated place during the day, where you can blend into the crowd and avoid suspicion. The parking lot of a big box store or grocery during business hours is common for this scenario. Going to a public park, which is undoubtedly marked for no trespassing after sundown, is an awful place:

-you're transporting drugs in one of the only cars out on the road in the middle of the night (in this case, when the highway patrol has warned people off the roads due to weather)

- if any LEO sees you turning down the dead end road to the park he's going to immediately be even more suspicious

- the park is going to be posted "No trespassing sundown to sunset", so LE immediately has probable cause to search both party's vehicles/person

Doing something like this is all about blending into the background and hiding in plain sight. No drug dealer would put themselves in a situation where they would stick out like a sore thumb like this. It would be like asking to get arrested.



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Someone lured her out there having seen her at chrome and maybe offered to sell to her even though that was never their intention.

 

[kanzz]

Someone lured her out there having seen her at chrome and maybe offered to sell to her even though that was never their intention.

Just as a person would not want to sell there, she wouldn't have wanted to buy there either. Nobody would have wanted to get caught doing a transaction there.

oh, and Thank You, SpaceToast!

 

[xmsmadex]

Just as a person would not want to sell there, she wouldn't have wanted to buy there either. Nobody would have wanted to get caught doing a transaction there.

oh, and Thank You, SpaceToast!

I dont think she was experienced enough, it could have easily been a regular at chrome who she came to trust. Im sure she may have questioned the meeting area but if she's never been there before shes unaware of how remote it really is. What other explanation is there for her being out that way? That she got lost trying to drive home like shes done a million times at that hour? That she was meeting friends at a place she frequented? Her being lost is a ridiculous explanation. It makes no sense.

 

[Deleted member 155000]

I just wanted to chime in regarding the theory that this was a drug deal gone wrong, which I've seen suggested pretty regularly at various places in these threads. Over the years, I've known quite a few drug dealers in my city, from 45 yo men that have financed their entire adult lives selling cocaine and pills to 20 yos who trade their Adderall prescriptions for weed every month. I can tell you unequivocally that none of them would ever in a million years set up a drug transaction at 4:30am in a public park a mile down a deserted road just outside of a small suburb. In fact, that would probably be the absolute last place they would ever set up a drug deal.

First of all, most of the time this kind of thing just happens at someone's house. That eliminates almost all risk of being caught unless one of the parties is an informant/cop (wherein you're screwed regardless). Second, if you did for some reason need to meet somewhere other than one of the parties homes, you would do it in a populated place during the day, where you can blend into the crowd and avoid suspicion. The parking lot of a big box store or grocery during business hours is common for this scenario. Going to a public park, which is undoubtedly marked for no trespassing after sundown, is an awful place:

-you're transporting drugs in one of the only cars out on the road in the middle of the night (in this case, when the highway patrol has warned people off the roads due to weather)

- if any LEO sees you turning down the dead end road to the park he's going to immediately be even more suspicious

- the park is going to be posted "No trespassing sundown to sunset", so LE immediately has probable cause to search both party's vehicles/person

Doing something like this is all about blending into the background and hiding in plain sight. No drug dealer would put themselves in a situation where they would stick out like a sore thumb like this. It would be like asking to get arrested.



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I know everyone's experiences are different, but just as confident as you are that this isn't how drug deals go down, I know of people who NEVER stored drugs or did business out of their homes. Often because they didn't want to be indicted if their homes were searched, to have addicts know where they lived, or to have their family involved in any way. I can also think of several reasons they might meet at a remote park...from something as simple as friends meeting up in a peaceful, secluded place to smoke some joints...to something more nefarious. About four years ago, police in our area even confiscated weed being temporarily stored under the dock at a public boat launch. So I don't think we can predict which locations any given dealer would prefer. We may find the dealer has a grow operation in a remote rural area near the parks, that he lives nearby, that this was a convenient stop on his way back from picking up his supply, or this was a halfway point for him and Toni.

I don't know whether she was meeting someone there, but I think it's important that police pursue that possibility even if they view it as unconventional.


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[policyoftruth501]

I just wanted to chime in regarding the theory that this was a drug deal gone wrong, which I've seen suggested pretty regularly at various places in these threads. Over the years, I've known quite a few drug dealers in my city, from 45 yo men that have financed their entire adult lives selling cocaine and pills to 20 yos who trade their Adderall prescriptions for weed every month. I can tell you unequivocally that none of them would ever in a million years set up a drug transaction at 4:30am in a public park a mile down a deserted road just outside of a small suburb. In fact, that would probably be the absolute last place they would ever set up a drug deal.

First of all, most of the time this kind of thing just happens at someone's house. That eliminates almost all risk of being caught unless one of the parties is an informant/cop (wherein you're screwed regardless). Second, if you did for some reason need to meet somewhere other than one of the parties homes, you would do it in a populated place during the day, where you can blend into the crowd and avoid suspicion. The parking lot of a big box store or grocery during business hours is common for this scenario. Going to a public park, which is undoubtedly marked for no trespassing after sundown, is an awful place:

-you're transporting drugs in one of the only cars out on the road in the middle of the night (in this case, when the highway patrol has warned people off the roads due to weather)

- if any LEO sees you turning down the dead end road to the park he's going to immediately be even more suspicious

- the park is going to be posted "No trespassing sundown to sunset", so LE immediately has probable cause to search both party's vehicles/person

Doing something like this is all about blending into the background and hiding in plain sight. No drug dealer would put themselves in a situation where they would stick out like a sore thumb like this. It would be like asking to get arrested.



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I have known my fair share of dealers when I was in my twenties and until recently I would have said they never would have set up a deal like this. However, just about a month ago there was a shooting in the middle of the afternoon in the parking lot of a shopping strip that is surrounded by fast food restaurants and has very heavy vehicle and foot traffic. It's also about 100 yards off an major interstate. Turns out it was a drug deal that went bad.

This alone is just stupid, but take into consideration that this also happened in the suburbs and was a stone's throw away from countless places that are off the beaten path, in the woods, and provide a LOT more discretion. However, these idiots decided to go in broad daylight to one of the busiest places in town to conduct a drug deal. So, as we all eventually learn, I once again learned to never say never.


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[SpaceToast]

I know everyone's experiences are different, but just as confident as you are that this isn't how drug deals go down, I know of people who NEVER stored drugs or did business out of their homes. Often because they didn't want to be indicted if their homes were searched, to have addicts know where they lived, or to have their family involved in any way. I can also think of several reasons they might meet at a remote park...from something as simple as friends meeting up in a peaceful, secluded place to smoke some joints...to something more nefarious. About four years ago, police in our area even confiscated weed being temporarily stored under the dock at a public boat launch. So I don't think we can predict which locations any given dealer would prefer. We may find the dealer has a grow operation in a remote rural area near the parks, that he lives nearby, that this was a convenient stop on his way back from picking up his supply, or this was a halfway point for him and Toni.

I don't know whether she was meeting someone there, but I think it's important that police pursue that possibility even if they view it as unconventional.


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Well, you can never say "never" and you can't account for stupid, but I still find this scenario unlikely. I guess there's a reason the people I know have never been to prison, though.


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[jpo74]

"Toni, whose body has been cremated, will be remembered at a Tuesday morning funeral at the Risen Savior Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kansas."

that was quick. was there an autopsy actually done or was it a once over and then cremated? i would think they would cover all bases :facepalm:

 

[BaileyC]

He didn't pack up her "room." She had a full apartment with rather high rent, according to what some have posted regarding the building she and PS Jr. lived in. I suspect her parents didn't want to be paying high rent for PS Jr. to live there by himself. There also may have been some issues regarding the lease. I suspect that the lease was in Toni's name, and being missing, the landlords may have considered the lease to be broken. Who knows?

I have posted the loft was expensive but I was incorrect. The loft Toni and Pete lived in had rent based on income. Several different places to check when looking up the Lofts online and what I looked at did not specify annual income. It stated for 2 people it would be over $35,000 a year Thing is the 2 people at $35,000 was for annual income plus all utilities paid with lots of extra's. Seems like a good bargain for two young people or anyone with low income. Rent would be eight hundred something a month was stated on page but the first advertisement I checked did not have this information, was misleading.

 

[thekarmabus]

that was quick. was there an autopsy actually done or was it a once over and then cremated? i would think they would cover all bases :facepalm:

Autopsies take around 2-4 hours approx . My guess Toni's on the 4 hour side due to tissue issues of drowning. Prelim results approx one week but full results 5-6 weeks ( this is due many times to toxicology results) can't put a puzzle together missing pieces.


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[MaxManning]

I just wanted to chime in regarding the theory that this was a drug deal gone wrong, which I've seen suggested pretty regularly at various places in these threads. Over the years, I've known quite a few drug dealers in my city, from 45 yo men that have financed their entire adult lives selling cocaine and pills to 20 yos who trade their Adderall prescriptions for weed every month. I can tell you unequivocally that none of them would ever in a million years set up a drug transaction at 4:30am in a public park a mile down a deserted road just outside of a small suburb. In fact, that would probably be the absolute last place they would ever set up a drug deal.

First of all, most of the time this kind of thing just happens at someone's house. That eliminates almost all risk of being caught unless one of the parties is an informant/cop (wherein you're screwed regardless). Second, if you did for some reason need to meet somewhere other than one of the parties homes, you would do it in a populated place during the day, where you can blend into the crowd and avoid suspicion. The parking lot of a big box store or grocery during business hours is common for this scenario. Going to a public park, which is undoubtedly marked for no trespassing after sundown, is an awful place:

-you're transporting drugs in one of the only cars out on the road in the middle of the night (in this case, when the highway patrol has warned people off the roads due to weather)

- if any LEO sees you turning down the dead end road to the park he's going to immediately be even more suspicious

- the park is going to be posted "No trespassing sundown to sunset", so LE immediately has probable cause to search both party's vehicles/person

Doing something like this is all about blending into the background and hiding in plain sight. No drug dealer would put themselves in a situation where they would stick out like a sore thumb like this. It would be like asking to get arrested.



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I am going to suggest that if this was foul play, it was under the guise of a drug deal, but that the boat ramp was the feature that was important to the meeting for reasons obvious now.

Why would someone choose a location like this? Because if the goal is to rob/harm her, they would go in there with no drugs and understand that she has money. The location would be an ideal place to be able to tell if someone was approaching or followed them from a long ways.

so.. If a LEO sees you turning down a road and follows, you have full ability to just say "hey, we were just hanging out". Even if there is a no trespassing search, they got no drugs, she has money. No crime other than trespassing in a park, right?

It's quite clear that there was possibly a change up that night. The only part we don't know about yet, is how that would have been communicated. However we have some easy explanations - burner phone or simply being told that at chrome. Or even Shady Lady being the code name used for this location.

Another point I want to make is that according to PS Sr, this purchase was made every month. That sounds like a lot more than the typical deal, that might occur for someone buying for their own purposes. Many people buy in smaller quantities when it comes to weed, simply because the amount you can get caught with can be a major factor in the seriousness of the sentence when caught. Because if you have a large amount, you will be seen as a dealer.

http://www.missouri-criminal-defense.com/marijuana-possession/

The difference between 35 grams and more than that is up to 7 years in jail as opposed to 1 year. Keep in mind, this is just possession charges, not dealing.

However, like I said, it's the change of venue that makes it seem like the intention all along would have been just what happened.

If it's true that her drug dealer was potentially in a location waiting in his car all night for her to appear, and that *somehow* she was redirected to that location, I doubt that it was for an actual drug deal, but rather an ambush of sorts.

I'm eager to see the case files and if they include a smartphone's gps/pings being used to alibi a suspect. It's a crazy thing nowadays where your smartphone is assumed to be in the same location as the person and everyone can understand that. yet... it doesn't have to be true.


Lastly, if they knew/believed she was a CI/Snitch, they'd have no drugs, just an intention to use a boat ramp after luring her to what she thought was her monthly drug purchase. So all they would have to do is ensure they weren't followed in, take the money, and do the deed.

All of what I have said is theorizing based on what we have gleaned and I admit that accident has a decent probability, but it's just that nagging idea of why was she even there that makes it hard to accept. It's possible that we'll have no choice but to accept it, even if our questions are valid and correct.

 

[DexterMorgan]

She possibly took oxytocin at the ramp to relax. And accidentally had the car in nuetral and not park while she was dozing off from the oxytocin effect.

Idk

 

[AceDetective]

I just wanted to chime in regarding the theory that this was a drug deal gone wrong, which I've seen suggested pretty regularly at various places in these threads. Over the years, I've known quite a few drug dealers in my city, from 45 yo men that have financed their entire adult lives selling cocaine and pills to 20 yos who trade their Adderall prescriptions for weed every month. I can tell you unequivocally that none of them would ever in a million years set up a drug transaction at 4:30am in a public park a mile down a deserted road just outside of a small suburb. In fact, that would probably be the absolute last place they would ever set up a drug deal.

First of all, most of the time this kind of thing just happens at someone's house. That eliminates almost all risk of being caught unless one of the parties is an informant/cop (wherein you're screwed regardless). Second, if you did for some reason need to meet somewhere other than one of the parties homes, you would do it in a populated place during the day, where you can blend into the crowd and avoid suspicion. The parking lot of a big box store or grocery during business hours is common for this scenario. Going to a public park, which is undoubtedly marked for no trespassing after sundown, is an awful place:

-you're transporting drugs in one of the only cars out on the road in the middle of the night (in this case, when the highway patrol has warned people off the roads due to weather)

- if any LEO sees you turning down the dead end road to the park he's going to immediately be even more suspicious

- the park is going to be posted "No trespassing sundown to sunset", so LE immediately has probable cause to search both party's vehicles/person

Doing something like this is all about blending into the background and hiding in plain sight. No drug dealer would put themselves in a situation where they would stick out like a sore thumb like this. It would be like asking to get arrested.

Thank you for some real world expertise. Truth.

 

[OnTheCase101]

Great thoughts from everyone. I do agree that PS Sr claiming it truly was a drug deal only *increases* the likelihood that it was foul play, not decreases it!

So many things can go wrong when you get into dark drugs in big amounts..... CI/snitch. Unpaid debts. Sending a message to other dealers. There's also the very small possibility of a strict thrill kill. I also honestly haven't ruled out my strong suspicions against the KCPD, due to their dodginess and timeline edits.

I understand and respect the Andersons' desire to put this all to rest, but I have a nagging feeling in my gut telling me that justice has not been served for Toni. She deserves better.


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[MaxManning]

I understand and respect the Andersons' desire to put this all to rest, but I have a nagging feeling in my gut telling me that justice has not been served for Toni. She deserves better.


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I would hope that we all are not just having gut feelings, but just looking at what we can glean from what we have been learning and just acknowledge that there's a whole lot to exclude before a conclusion could ever be made.

LE might have all the answers already and excluded everything or maybe just couldn't exclude them and that is the primary factor -- we can't prove anything we suspect.

Drug dealing go on everyday.
Missing persons and murders are rampant in KC.
Stalkers are alive and well.
CI/Snitches are made and used on a daily basis by LE.
Toni's occupation is one that can often be exposed to other illegal activity.

None of this is about gut feelings imo, it's about probability.

Absolutely, all these things could exist in Toni's life and this could still be an accident.

But because they do factually exist and all these things are valid and reasonable to suspect given what we have gleaned about Toni's life, you have to exclude them in some way. Or you are just cutting corners.

Yet all we have is numerous indicators, but no proof. I'd be willing to bet that case files and investigation has elements of most of the above, if not all as potential causations. So I don't even think a gut feeling is something that's needed, statistics work fine.

What they might not have is answers to the questions. Thats where investigation is important.

Someone from a nonprofit with expertise offers help and finds the car. Great example of how sometimes an extra bit of effort can yield something that otherwise would have possibly never been found.

It wasn't anyone's gut feelings that said the car was likely in the water, it was people's ability to use statistics to point to a high probability. Lets call it what it is, it's not a gut feeling, it's based on what we've seen before many times. Accidents are statistically relevant in these cases.


If someone had a gut feeling that she was hiding on a water tower all this time and that turned out to be true, i'd be questioning that person as a suspect, before I believed they had a gut feeling about that and it panned out somehow.

ya know?

 

[tinytena]

Makes sense-I know in every dashcam I've seen you do hear the audio when the officer is at the window of who they pulled over etc so I'm sure it records somehow audio as well so I'm sure he would have seen that since they inevitably reviewed the footage..good question.


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all the talk again about dashcams just made me think of something. do the cams only come on when they initiate a stop, or do they run nonstop during officers shift? the reason i bring this up is 2 parts. if the officer pulled her but never called it in, then dispatcher would have no log off it (remember at the start no department acknoledged pulling her over). if he did'nt report it, then would he have turned on the camera? (maybe why it has'nt been released is because it does not exist). remember the scanner feeds for the time she was stopped were pulled and not available. if it were'nt for the dealership video, we would have no record initially of her being stopped

 

[heartgoesout]

I said that awhile back...I don't think there is anything to release. And yesterday when I rewatched what Caldwell and Snapp said about it, it sounds more like what they were told happen not what they watched on video or heard.

 

[MaxManning]

I said that awhile back...I don't think there is anything to release. And yesterday when I rewatched what Caldwell and Snapp said about it, it sounds more like what they were told happen not what they watched on video or heard.

I suspect you are right, and that's why it's not something anyone wants to come out and say definitively.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

I just wanted to chime in regarding the theory that this was a drug deal gone wrong, which I've seen suggested pretty regularly at various places in these threads. Over the years, I've known quite a few drug dealers in my city, from 45 yo men that have financed their entire adult lives selling cocaine and pills to 20 yos who trade their Adderall prescriptions for weed every month. I can tell you unequivocally that none of them would ever in a million years set up a drug transaction at 4:30am in a public park a mile down a deserted road just outside of a small suburb. In fact, that would probably be the absolute last place they would ever set up a drug deal.

First of all, most of the time this kind of thing just happens at someone's house. That eliminates almost all risk of being caught unless one of the parties is an informant/cop (wherein you're screwed regardless). Second, if you did for some reason need to meet somewhere other than one of the parties homes, you would do it in a populated place during the day, where you can blend into the crowd and avoid suspicion. The parking lot of a big box store or grocery during business hours is common for this scenario. Going to a public park, which is undoubtedly marked for no trespassing after sundown, is an awful place:

-you're transporting drugs in one of the only cars out on the road in the middle of the night (in this case, when the highway patrol has warned people off the roads due to weather)

- if any LEO sees you turning down the dead end road to the park he's going to immediately be even more suspicious

- the park is going to be posted "No trespassing sundown to sunset", so LE immediately has probable cause to search both party's vehicles/person

Doing something like this is all about blending into the background and hiding in plain sight. No drug dealer would put themselves in a situation where they would stick out like a sore thumb like this. It would be like asking to get arrested.



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I'm not saying you're wrong but all of the drug deals I've gone to have been in this type of location. Granted all the dealers I know are under the age of 25 but it happens. I wouldn't say for sure no dealer would do it because they do. Jmo