Mothers Who Kill Their Children

[Goody]

.........
I keep wondering, and have never seen an explanation which covers this:
IF Darlie killed the two older boys as a jury has declared, and IF she was angry, depressed, stressed, having post- partum depression ( some of the things posted on this thread), then WHY didn't she single out the weakest person in the household, the baby, OR kill the person she was probably the most POed at for not keeping up their payments and household needs, her husband?

To know that, we would have to know exactly what initiated the attack on the children. We would all love to know but only Darlie and Darin know and they aren't talking.

......... About the $10,000 life insurance policies on the boys: I have to wonder if neither of the Routiers had relatives who would loan them at least that much if not more?

No one else in the family was making the kind of money Darin was, so the answer is "no."

......... Also, when it comes to planning criminal ways to get money, isn't Darrin the one who came up with an arson scam plan, not carried out?

No plan of arson that I ever heard. He claims he was looking for someone to rob the home so she could scam his homeowners insurance but stops short of saying who knew about it and if he ever really did put the word out. Personally I think it was all just talk. If it were anything more, he would be able to tell just who he had hired or provide a list of names of who he had talked to about it. He has done neither that I know of.

......... Darlie did seem very naive.

I think that is probably true but it doesn't shield her from guilt. I think she was very naive in how investigations are run and what can be held against you in a court of law.

......... The sticking points for me are these, although I accept that there is no evidence of any intruder:
I don't think she is smart enough to have made the defensive bruises and cuts on her own arms, and I don't think she had what it would take in sheer will and endurance ( not to mention luck) to cut her own neck to a millimeter away from a major artery.

Since when does someone have to be smart to know how to bruise themselves or cut themselves? A five year old could figure out that, I think.

......... She seemed to be vain, which is not unusual in her circle and age group, I suppose

Agreed.

......... Was suicide on her mind when she cut her neck?

No one knows but her, but I don't think so. If she had intended to kill herself, she would have cut much deeper. That blade went into her neck less than an inch, probably not much more than a half inch or so. She was lucky she didn't hit an artery, but I think the cut was fashioned to avoid the windpipe, vocal chords, etc. , which are usually cut when someone cuts their throat, esp when someone else cuts someone's throat. I think the cut was done purely for dramatic effect. It was a misguided attempt to make her injuries appear to be as serious as the boys so suspicion would not fall on her.

......... If so, why didn't she take an overdose of something? A bottle of Tylenol will kill an adult, and from what I have read, they did have legal and illegal drugs in their house.

People choose all kinds of ways to kill themselves. A friend's son recently committed suicide by laying on a train track. Wouldn't be my personal choice, that is for sure. So who can second guess why someone else chooses to do anything?

......... Why do any/ all of you think that Darrin was not the one who fought with Darlie, cut her neck, and kllled the boys? ( I am not sure in what order things would have been done according to the blood evidence, but it seems from what I have read that maybe her throat was cut between the two boys being stabbed. )

Darlie throat was probably cut after the boys were attacked, probably after most of the staging was done. Definitely after the sock was dropped in the alley.

Darin couldn't have been involved in the murder scene because during at least the attack on Devon and the initial attack on Damon because there is no blood evidence at all to link him to it. No bloody footprints, no Darin fingerprints in blood, etc. The only incriminating evidence at all against Darin is his hair found on the knife, but since he lived in the crime scene, that could have been literally floating in the hair or picked up on the countertop when Darlie placed the knife there. I suppose it is possible that he stabbed the Damon the final time after they realized he was still alive and police were on their way, but there is nothing but the hair to support that. And the hair alone is too weak to build a case against him.

Darin may have fought with Darlie at some point, but again there is no evidence to support that. One of these days I am going to really try to analyze the photos of her bruises, but for now if you look at the photos of her in the hospital on that first day there are NO signs of injury to her arms. For the kind of blunt trauma it would take to create those bruises, she would have surely had large patches of redness on that pretty pink skin. I think every one of the medical people asked about it testified that they would expect to see it then and it just was not there. Yet 4 days later at the police station, we see those ugly bruises. Some say the bruises are just beginning and some say they are just fading away. I personally have been all over the board on them, but mostly lean toward them just beginning because I can't see them in the hospital photos.

But there is another reason to question the bruises. How many people are going to get in a fight with an attacker and come out with bruises only on the underside of their arms? No bruises on their face, chin, middrift, or even on their legs. Does that make any sense? It seems more likely to me that DARLIE thought she was supposed to have defense wounds on her arms so she slammed her arms to bruise them there. If she had been hit, surely the attacker would have made impact on the target (probably her face) at least ONCE! Those bruises just don't ring true.

......... I understand that mothers do kill. But slashing one's own " pretty" self like that, and stabbing the boys so many times seems more like a male rage, like an OJ Simpson male hormone and drug rage thing to me.

Not necessarily. Mothers have been known to stab their children. Julie Rea Harper is accused of stabbing her 10 year old son to death in a similar manner. And there are others. Darlie is not the first mother to do it. Using a knife from the house eliminates the problem of where to hide the murder weapon. You don't have to hide it if it is a part of the crime scene. Therefore, you don't have to worry about police finding it and putting two and two together.

......... Why is it not possible that Darrin killed the boys and stabbed Darlie and she was absolutely too dumb at the time to realize that the " intruder" she waffled about and never gave a good answer about was actually him?

Because she saw Darin come down the stairs when she woke him up just before she called 911. How could he be upstairs and out in the garage at the same time?

.........
don't think anyone on her defense team even looked closely at Darin for quite some time, and it seems that the police and prosecution never considered him as a suspect. I wonder WHY NOT,

They were suspicious of Darin and probably still are to some degree, but there was no physical evidence against him. So what could they do?

......... I am not trying to cause any hurt or anger, I feel the same things when I read about this case, and I also have a lot of confusion because taking ALL kinds of pathology into account, I still wonder if Darin wasn't the rage- filled aggressor who snapped under the financial and marital strain.

If Darin is the real killer and Darlie innocently suffering from traumatic amnesia, why on earth isn't she doing everything she can to recover her memory? She has had one hypnotic session. The report was released. I don't know where it is posted but maybe you can find it at justicefordarlie.net. In it she decribes two intruders, one big man and one little guy, one light skinned and one dark skinned. She fights with them on the couch (now there are two guys hitting on her and she still gets bruises only on her arms) and one of them falls off the couch onto Damon. No Darin in that memory though. You'd think that she'd go back and try to remember more since the one session was so successful, but nope, not another word about hypnosis has been suggested by her camp. Does this sound reasonable to you?

......... Murder is always tragic and senseless, but I have a harder time with this case and verdict than any other I have ever discussed. I am very sorry that I do wonder if there was a rush to judgment in Texas.

Thanks for reading my post.

They did go to trial pretty fast, but I don't think there was a rush to judgment. The bottomline was that the whole thing hinged on the blood evidence and it all pointed to Darlie. It is not like they relied only on eye witness testimony. They had the goods on her and that is why she was convicted.

I will tell you one thing this case has taught me.....how much I didn't know about how to analyze evidence. I am still a lightweight but am learning more and more everyday. It is the kind of education you can't get reading true crime books.

 

[Goody]

.........................
How do the things you mentioned point to Darlie and away from Darrin? I don't see how it does at all. You mentioned the the kinife was from the house- he had access to it too. You mentioned that SOMEONE inside the house used something to clean their hands or another object in the sink- why not Darrin instead of Darlie? He was all over the boys- but was Darlie's blood on his hands? Isn't it weird if sampling showed that none of her blood was on his hands? She was bleeding, apparently heavily, and yes, she moved around without shoes on in the middle of the night, and yes, she called 911 after picking up the bloody knife.

Darlie had cast off blood on her night shirt in the very locations that tests proved cast off blood would have fallen if she had been stabbing the kids. Darin was not wearing a shirt. He was barechested. So there is nothing to test.

Darlie's blood was all over the utility room but she insists she was not in it. She wants us to believe that the intruder had so much of her blood on him that he dripped it in there and put it on the door frame, etc. But it is obvious that only someone bleeding could have left it there and it is HER blood.

Yet her bloody footprints do not go anywhere near the utility room. They trail instead between the family room and the kitchen sink. Hence, the blood in the utility room probably came from her arm wound, which means she probably had not cut her throat yet or the blood from her neck wound had not seeped down her body to her feet yet. That would place her in the utility room fairly early, probably before she called 911.

There are big red round drops of blood in front of the sink indicating she stood there still for some time doing something. She says wetting towels. Most believe rinsing the knife (which explains how Devon's and Damon's blood got into the sink), so she could cut her throat and prepare to wake Darin and call 911.

She says the intruder dropped the knife just before he reached the utility room but there is no blood spatter from a falling knife in the location she described. It is easy to see that a bloody knife was not dropped there.

The screen fiber and fiber dust on the bread knife indicate that it was used to cut the screen. Okay, either Darin or Darlie could have cut the screen, but it sure does eliminate an intruder.

Not only is there NO blood evidence pointing to Darin, there are no fingerprints or footprints indicating he was ever anywhere but where he claimed to be during the murders and immediately afterward.

......... Most murderers do not want to be the one who calls and reports the crime.

Yes, but many do. Look at Michael Peterson and others. Besides, Darlie had to make the call. She had to wake Darin, assuming he wasn't involved. She had to get the ambulance there to save herself, not to mention to set up a timeline and work her story.

......... What about Darrin's physical evidence? His bloody clothing? Was it tested too? Were assumptions made about his clothing which are scientifically based? If so, I have never seen the reports.

His jeans were secured and taken into custody. I don't know if they were tested or not, but if so, that evidence was not brought in to trial by either side.

......... Also, did he take a polygraph and are the results known?
If he was involved in some way, even if it was with Darlie, then shouldn't he be in prison on death row as well?

No evidence that he was involved but he did fail a private polygraph. As I recall the questions he failed on had to do with his knowledge of who killed the kids. He says the test was rigged and it might have been since it was given by a millionaire financing Darlie's appeals in the early days of her appeals. But even if it wasn't, Darlie could very well be the person he knows killed the kids. As I recall none of his questions exonerated her.

......... There is so much more that I don't KNOW about this case than what I have read. I still wonder why a woman, if stressed over motherhood and with a baby to care for 24/7 while the other boys were old enough at the time to be going to pre-school or daycare, would not eliminate the biggest burden first by killing the baby. He was the weakest, yet he lived. So did the strongest person in the household and the one with a great deal to lose and possibly many years of chld support to pay in a divorce. If they lost their house, boat, other assets, I think Darlie would have left Darrin without a backwards glance. Darrin must have been very desperate if he did plot to have his house burned down. It was supposed to be their dream house, wasn't it?

I don't think Darin would have worried much about any of that. He had his parents' support. He knew they would help him with the kids, and, in fact, one of Darlie's friends testified that Darlie was afraid if they separated that Darin's mother would take the kids away from her. She is the one who would have been most fearful of loss thru divorce.

......... Darlie was young and attractive, and she had recently learned what having money and luxury things felt like. She would have had no problem finding a successful man, if easy money and a man's love were her goals.

Maybe. Maybe not. She was not well educated, and most successful men these days are looking for educated women who won't be totally dependent on them financially.

......... I wonder if the case was looked at closely for the possibility of Darrin's involvement because of Darlie's wounds to her inner arm areas and certainly because of the severe neck wound, and because the baby wasn't killed..

The police did a pretty thorough job on this one. There were a few mistakes. There always are, but overall it was a good case. Darin was investigated along with Darlie and independently. There just was no evidence on which to charge him. Personally I think he was involved in all or at least part of it, and that is why he has been so loyal to him. He is afraid that she will blow the whistle on him if he isn't.

......... Did a psychiatrist give any testimony about why a young woman who had her hair bleached from very dark brown to light blonde, had surgically augmented her breasts, wore expensive things and apparently took great care of herself would inflict a serious injury to herself which could have resulted in death and had to have hurt a lot? What about the fact that she could easily have had or may have a large scar on her neck from a self-inflicted slashing? Does that fit in with a rather flashy, probably vain young woman's way of thinking?

That is not evidence that she wouldn't have cut her throat. It is everyone's initial response though. LOL! Darlie was in a desperate situation. She had to convince police, family, friends, etc that she could not have had anything to do with the murders. The only way to do that was to make herself a victim. She couldn't risk stabbing herself the way she stabbed the kids so the next best thing was to slice her neck and make it look like someone else did it. A sharp butcher knife would have just slid naturally almost in seconds and probably went a little deeper than she planned. The hardest part would be to build up the nerve to do it. Darlie has an entrepeneaur spirit and is a risk taker at heart. I don't have any problem seeing her doing it, esp once I got past the erroneous idea that a vain woman has no guts. She even had a remedy for taking care of the scar only days after the crime according to one book author who told of someone close to her talking about how she planned on having it taken care of in Europe after things died down. True or not, it is likely she would have had plastic surgery at some time to remove it if she had not been imprisoned. So I don't think the too vain to do it excuse carries much weight.

 

[Goody]

[/b][/color]
That shows how important their reputation was to them. Admitting you have to cancel trips is admitting you are not what others think you are.

Well, when you go from being just one of the crowd to be the big shot in the crowd, it is hard to go back to being a nobody again.

Although, I am sure the other women in the neighborhood had an idea of who Darlie was when they saw her prancing around in her thong! [url="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_3_121.gif"]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_3_121.gif[/url] [/color][/b]

That was on Bond Street. Some say she did sun bathe in the front yard though on Eagle.

 

[Goody]

Sorry I have been slow to welcome you and acknowledge the pending first time birth. Here's hoping you have a lovely, healthy baby and a lifetime of happiness.

 

[Goody]

And I think a silly string party at the graveside service of your murdered child is Extreme & Unusual---- but she had an excuse for it-- didnt she?

Yes, she did, but the party itself was not so unusual. It was her demeanor at the party that was OUT THERE! If Darlie was a loving mother, even if just a loving mother with a selfish streak, I think it is unlikely she would be able to be as carefree and happy go lucky just a few days after she buried two of her three children, who were brutally murdered right before her eyes, as she appeared in that video. She was definitely detached at that point from the kids and probably the murders too, and there ain't no drugs on this earth that could create that.

 

[beesy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkoflaura
......... She seemed to be vain, which is not unusual in her circle and age group, I suppose

"Agreed" quote by Goody
I am of Darlie's generation and I am not that vain.

 

[j2mirish]

Yes, she did, but the party itself was not so unusual. It was her demeanor at the party that was OUT THERE! If Darlie was a loving mother, even if just a loving mother with a selfish streak, I think it is unlikely she would be able to be as carefree and happy go lucky just a few days after she buried two of her three children, who were brutally murdered right before her eyes, as she appeared in that video. She was definitely detached at that point from the kids and probably the murders too, and there ain't no drugs on this earth that could create that.

mostly I agree with everything here- except---I dont necessarily believe a party at the grave side is "not so unusual"-------- these were her 2 baby boys---- days after their "murder"

there is not a mom in this world that I know of, that could have put on the show she did----like you said- aint a drug around that could allow that to happen

 

[Goody]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkoflaura
......... She seemed to be vain, which is not unusual in her circle and age group, I suppose

"Agreed" quote by Goody
I am of Darlie's generation and I am not that vain. [url="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_75.gif"]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_75.gif[/url]

O, you are probably more vain than you realize. I remember wanting to dress in "cool" clothes and get a sharp hairdo, went through a make up stage, etc. Most of us are vain to some extent in our twenties. After all, we aren't dead yet at that age.

Girls like Darlie are probably upping the vanity levels some, but I don't find it all that unusual for a young woman to want to be appreciated by the opposite sex, to want to look sexy and attractive, to want to the attention of others.

I don't think Darlie's failings fall in her vanity levels but in her detachment and ability to just bounce back before the bodies were even cold. Somehow she even managed to justify it in her mind, i.e. the boys lived full lives. How do you live a full life in just 5 or 6 years?

I think Darin said a lot when he said they were so wrapped up in "living large" they lost track of what was important or something to that effect. That's another thing that makes me think Darin was more involved in what happened than he claims. I think he is haunted by what they did that night, and if the truth be known, is probably the one with the conscience.

I don't think Darlie could deal with a conscience so her way of coping with what they did is to balance it somewhere between justification and denial.

 

[Goody]

mostly I agree with everything here- except---I dont necessarily believe a party at the grave side is "not so unusual"-------- these were her 2 baby boys---- days after their "murder"

there is not a mom in this world that I know of, that could have put on the show she did----like you said- aint a drug around that could allow that to happen

Samatha Runion's mother had a birthday party for her. It was not graveside but it included her loved ones and friends remembering all the good things about her and sharing her favorite things. More and more we see people having lively gettogethers graveside. Some bring beers and toast the departed, some just gather to remember, some probably do spray silly string around and talk to them as if they are still alive and there with them. So I don't think the party all by itself was such a bad thing or do outrageous.

I agree with you that it is unlikely that we would find another mom as detached and celebratory as Darlie was. Only days after grisly murders like that most moms wouldn;t be able to lift their heads; many would turn gray almost over night. I have seen that happen.

But one thing with Darlie we should remember is that she was obviously performing for the cameras. She knew they were there and that they were there in repayment for paying for the hotel rooms for her family members. Still, I can't say that I know another mother who would be able to make "good tv" even knowing that. So in that way, Darlie's performance is definitely unique.

 

[beesy]

O, you are probably more vain than you realize. I remember wanting to dress in "cool" clothes and get a sharp hairdo, went through a make up stage, etc. Most of us are vain to some extent in our twenties. After all, we aren't dead yet at that age.
Girls like Darlie are probably upping the vanity levels some, but I don't find it all that unusual for a young woman to want to be appreciated by the opposite sex, to want to look sexy and attractive, to want to the attention of others

I'm 37 now and I still wear makeup and earrings and color my hair. I thought ya'll meant her generation, not her age. She and I are in the same generation, and not all of us are vain to that extent. I wear Mom Jeans now! Ugh!

 

[deanws]

I'm 37 now and I still wear makeup and earrings and color my hair. I thought ya'll meant her generation, not her age. She and I are in the same generation, and not all of us are vain to that extent. I wear Mom Jeans now! Ugh![/b][/color]

37!!! LOL...that is still a baby. Just wait until you get 45! Now that is getting close to half a century! OMGosh...that is scary!

 

[beesy]

37!!! LOL...that is still a baby. Just wait until you get 45! Now that is getting close to half a century! OMGosh...that is scary!

Hey honey, I never said 37 is old. I know I'm young. When I was 17, 37 was way past old! I think Goody is the grandma on here
I was talking about Darlie's generation in general and they were talking about her age at the time of the murders. So I was saying that I'm not in my 20's anymore and I still get dolled up, but believe me I have never once looked like Darlie!
I think I'm the baby on board. Can't you tell?

 

[beesy]

Thanks. June can't come soon enough. I'm already the size of a small country! :blowkiss:

Don't worry, you'll be the size of a big country come June

 

[cami]

I just can't wrap my mind around that. Killing your kids after an arguement with your husband seems so extreme and UNUSUAL to me. Even UNUSUAL amongst parents who murder their children. I get the frustration and tensions and stresses, etc. I think they could contribute to her over reacting and lashing out at the kids who are misbehaving, but to pounce on two sleeping kids with a knife in the middle of the night because your husband told you to go F yourself is akin to going postal because your fries are cold. There would have to be a long history of bizarre behavior leading up to it, I would think. Or at least a long battle between the adults like divorce filings, separations, other partners, fights over children and custody issues, money, etc. Darlie and Darin were still together with no lovers interfering, etc. She hadn't even begun to walk down that road. I just can't put my hat on that hook.

However, I do agree with you that most of what you said did happen. I think it definitely contributed to the mood in that house that night. But there is something more that we don't know yet.

MacDonald murdered his wife and one daughter during an argument in the middle of the night Goody. When there are diet pills, depression and lack of sleep involved, I don't think you need a history of bizarre behaviour. Mac certainly had no history of it. He murdered his baby purely because she was there and alive and old enough to say daddy hurt mummy. It's only when you scratch the surface that you discover his history of violant behaviour, and his mental illness. We can't do that with Darlie as no one will talk and she was not subjected to psychological testing that we know of, designed to uncover any hidden pathology. This case is very similar to MacDonald. I believe that Colette was intending to leave Mac and that might have precipitated the argument.

I for one do believe that Darlie and Darin were arguing and not getting along. You don't sleep apart from your husband for days on end just because your baby keeps you awake as he rolls in his crib. How that telegraphs into killing the boys, I don't know.

I for one do not wish to speculate at all as to what Darin and Darlie were all about so that's why I very seldom post on threads like these.

 

[cami]

37!!! LOL...that is still a baby. Just wait until you get 45! Now that is getting close to half a century! OMGosh...that is scary!

LOl, I've passed that century mark already. Hated it but there you go nothing you can do to stop it. I don't look it though so I am lucky in that regard.

 

[cami]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkoflaura
......... She seemed to be vain, which is not unusual in her circle and age group, I suppose

"Agreed" quote by Goody
I am of Darlie's generation and I am not that vain.

I think it goes beyond normal vanity of wanting to look nice and be attractive to men as Goody said. In Darlie it could have been pathological, a need for attention that went beyond normal vanity. She's not been diagnosed as far as I know so it's possible it was pathological with her.

Nothing wrong with vanity really is there. I want to look nice when I leave the house so I guess you could call me vain. I prefer to think it's self-confidence. Of course I don't wear thongs and certainly not outside, LOL.

 

[cami]

Thanks. June can't come soon enough. I'm already the size of a small country! :blowkiss:

Congratulations on the baby. My birthday is June 30th so try for that will you? Just kidding. My family is from Manchester. Whereabouts are you?

 

[feenix]

My birthday is June 30th so try for that will you? Just kidding. My family is from Manchester. Whereabouts are you?

Hey Cami, I too am in Manchester. I asked you whereabouts in Lancashire your family were when we were discussing the bloody onion, but you must have missed it?

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Hey Cami, I too am in Manchester. I asked you whereabouts in Lancashire your family were when we were discussing the bloody onion, but you must have missed it?

"Bloomin" onion knucklehead - not bloody onion. :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

 

[feenix]

"Bloomin" onion knucklehead - not bloody onion. :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

Sorry, I was referring to Cami's quote when she said that her 'very Lancashire Mum says 'bleeding onion and bloody onion' but her Mum is swearing!
onion[url="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cus/e_1_42.gif"]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cus/e_1_42.gif[/url]