Motive: The Truck

[Tamarind]

<rsbm>

There is not only one "viewpoint" allowed here for discussion.

The right to the presumption of innocence in no way interferes with the general public&#8217;s right to have an opinion. The public, as members of a free and democratic society, can state our personal opinions because we are not part of judicial proceedings. Our Charter right is guaranteed as a &#8220;Fundamental freedom&#8221; which states that everyone has the fundamental freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression




The right of an accused to be presumed innocent until proven guilty is a principle within the due process of law. In the Charter, it is a legal right within the section entitled &#8220;Proceedings in criminal and penal matters&#8221;.



http://webcache.googleusercontent.c.../const/page-15.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Thx for your reply SillyBilly. I agree, all viewpoints are up for discussion. My post was trying to explain that I 'think' (personal opinion) that we as a people should maintain a 'presumption of innocence' as per basic human decency, as well as Charter requirement. For example, I may think someone is as guilty as hell, yet I feel (personal opinion) that I owe it to myself and to mankind as a whole to try to maintain as neutral as possible when weighing up evidence, rumor, innuendo or whatever else presents during a case such as this one.
You highlighted &#8220;Proceedings in criminal and penal matters&#8221;. My opinion is that whether or not Charter states in &#8220;Proceedings in criminal and penal matters&#8221;. It is in my opinion something that is expected to be done, by those who are our fellow man. This is a requirement for all who are jurors, so I think that as anyone (suitable) can be called to be a juror then it applies to all whether or not they have the actual capacity to bring that ability to the table or the court.

I have never seen a report where SB made reference to those who came to test drive the truck in a way that indicated that they hung around for a while looking over the truck. If anyone can post a link to where she says that they stayed around and took a look at truck inside and out before test driving it, can they post it please? So I have taken that into account when I say that nothing has been said by SB in that regard. SB has however stated that they came and left in the truck, with no mention of any deliberating and viewing on the driveway. There have been many posts and links to support that they came and left, so I base my view that by omission SB does not appear to have ever said they hung around to view truck. This is my opinion and I hope my post helps to understand my meaning.

 

[Carli]

Thx for your reply SillyBilly. I agree, all viewpoints are up for discussion. My post was trying to explain that I 'think' (personal opinion) that we as a people should maintain a 'presumption of innocence' as per basic human decency, as well as Charter requirement. For example, I may think someone is as guilty as hell, yet I feel (personal opinion) that I owe it to myself and to mankind as a whole to try to maintain as neutral as possible when weighing up evidence, rumor, innuendo or whatever else presents during a case such as this one.
You highlighted &#8220;Proceedings in criminal and penal matters&#8221;. My opinion is that whether or not Charter states in &#8220;Proceedings in criminal and penal matters&#8221;. It is in my opinion something that is expected to be done, by those who are our fellow man. This is a requirement for all who are jurors, so I think that as anyone (suitable) can be called to be a juror then it applies to all whether or not they have the actual capacity to bring that ability to the table or the court.

I have never seen a report where SB made reference to those who came to test drive the truck in a way that indicated that they hung around for a while looking over the truck. If anyone can post a link to where she says that they stayed around and took a look at truck inside and out before test driving it, can they post it please? So I have taken that into account when I say that nothing has been said by SB in that regard. SB has however stated that they came and left in the truck, with no mention of any deliberating and viewing on the driveway. There have been many posts and links to support that they came and left, so I base my view that by omission SB does not appear to have ever said they hung around to view truck. This is my opinion and I hope my post helps to understand my meaning.

I think you've brought up a most interesting issue, Tamarind. Here we have two total strangers arriving at a rural address after dark at plus or minus 9:30 pm and, theoretically, without first hanging around for a half hour or so kicking tires, chewing the fat, looking for accident damage, revving the engine, checking the oil etc etc. actually convince the owner to promptly head out on a test drive. This either speaks to the extraordinary charm of the strangers in convincing the owner to let them take his vehicle for a drive OR it speaks to a rather extraordinary naivete on the part of the owner who willingly hops in his vehicle at night to head out with a couple of strangers. Of course, there may be other more clearly rational possibilities. Maybe they will be raised at trial? IMO. IMHO. MOO. etc.

 

[MuhGruff]

I think you've brought up a most interesting issue, Tamarind. Here we have two total strangers arriving at a rural address after dark at plus or minus 9:30 pm and, theoretically, without first hanging around for a half hour or so kicking tires, chewing the fat, looking for accident damage, revving the engine, checking the oil etc etc. actually convince the owner to promptly head out on a test drive. This either speaks to the extraordinary charm of the strangers in convincing the owner to let them take his vehicle for a drive OR it speaks to a rather extraordinary naivete on the part of the owner who willingly hops in his vehicle at night to head out with a couple of strangers. Of course, there may be other more clearly rational possibilities. Maybe they will be raised at trial? IMO. IMHO. MOO. etc.

They were desperate to sell the money sucking truck, try selling something like a dryer on kijiji, after a few months you'd be happy to deliver it to someone's house for free. SB mentioned it was a burden and after a few lookers TB was probably happy to ha e found an interested buyer and was hoping to just seal the deal.

It is only a small point that they didn't hang out much before the test drive but many mechanics can get a feel for a vehicles state by driving it using their senses to discover anomalies, a transaction like that doesn't imply nievity to TB just because he trusted that the strangers weren't going to Rob him and kill him just because it's night time and they didn't ask for the "car fax". A buyer can be just as desperate to buy and I'm willing to bet if Tim asked "don't you have questions or want to see the paperwork first?" DM probably wouldve responded with "I'm a mechanic, I'll let the engine do the talking "

We must be running out of material to be arguing over such a moot point. You can always ask questions while driving or maybe DM did over the phone prior to meeting.

 

[Carli]

(Snipped by me)

We must be running out of material to be arguing over such a moot point.

Given the paucity of information provided by either LE or MSM in this case and the need to base discussion on one or other of those sources, raising moot points is probably inevitable. LOL. MOO. IMO. IMHO. etc.

 

[Tamarind]

They were desperate to sell the money sucking truck, try selling something like a dryer on kijiji, after a few months you'd be happy to deliver it to someone's house for free. SB mentioned it was a burden and after a few lookers TB was probably happy to ha e found an interested buyer and was hoping to just seal the deal.

It is only a small point that they didn't hang out much before the test drive but many mechanics can get a feel for a vehicles state by driving it using their senses to discover anomalies, a transaction like that doesn't imply nievity to TB just because he trusted that the strangers weren't going to Rob him and kill him just because it's night time and they didn't ask for the "car fax". A buyer can be just as desperate to buy and I'm willing to bet if Tim asked "don't you have questions or want to see the paperwork first?" DM probably wouldve responded with "I'm a mechanic, I'll let the engine do the talking "

We must be running out of material to be arguing over such a moot point. You can always ask questions while driving or maybe DM did over the phone prior to meeting.

I appreciate your view MuhGruff, although I do think that with a more expensive item like the truck in question (as opposed to a dryer), it still in my opinion would have made more sense to at least look at the engine ( oil leakage etc) or shine a light on the underneath (rust) or to simply ask questions ( how many owners, any recent work done, any work needing to be done etc). It is just an observation on my part that this did not occur according to the reports. You may be right of course, and TB may have been in a rush to sell his quite expensive truck to two guys in t shirts with tattoos, without first discussing the pertinent info about the truck. I think it's good to debate all potential anomalies when trying to unearth the truth and possible clues. For all we know, TB may have been forced to get into the truck, or maybe they had met before, or maybe TB was told someone was waiting to take a look at the truck at another location, and maybe there was someone else who looked at the truck. If we don't question then how do we know? As you say You can ask questions while driving, but its incredibly difficult to view a vehicle in the dark especially while the vehicle is in motion.

 

[swedie]

I appreciate your view MuhGruff, although I do think that with a more expensive item like the truck in question (as opposed to a dryer), it still in my opinion would have made more sense to at least look at the engine ( oil leakage etc) or shine a light on the underneath (rust) or to simply ask questions ( how many owners, any recent work done, any work needing to be done etc). It is just an observation on my part that this did not occur according to the reports. You may be right of course, and TB may have been in a rush to sell his quite expensive truck to two guys in t shirts with tattoos, without first discussing the pertinent info about the truck. I think it's good to debate all potential anomalies when trying to unearth the truth and possible clues. For all we know, TB may have been forced to get into the truck, or maybe they had met before, or maybe TB was told someone was waiting to take a look at the truck at another location, and maybe there was someone else who looked at the truck. If we don't question then how do we know? As you say You can ask questions while driving, but its incredibly difficult to view a vehicle in the dark especially while the vehicle is in motion.

Just a few tidbits of information I find quite interesting and in case you've missed them. "If" the accused had thrill kill in mind, I don't think they really cared about doing a thorough inspection of any truck. A truck may have just been the excuse for luring their victim. If everything went according to plan, the truck would have been a bonus which they could chop in the hangar just as they did with the Harley Davidson motorcycle, which may I add was a fairly new.

Because LE and MSM did not report a play by play doesn't mean it didn't happen. Seems it will be at least a year before we get any of the details about that horrific night that an innocent, trusting family man with a beautiful wife and wee daughter was was so heartlessly murdered. MOO.

Interesting LE had seized a lot of computer equipment early in the case. Not to forgot a cell phone traced/tracked to Dellen, one belonging to TB and I suspect other phones which held crucial information. MOO.

No other items were recovered, but police said they were able to track the cellphone they believed the suspects used to contact Bosma.

That is how investigators were able to speak with the man in Etobicoke, who told police he thought it was suspicious that the men who arrived at his business to look at his truck were on foot. He was returned to his business after the test drive.

http://metronews.ca/news/hamilton/667353/missing-hamilton-man-tim-bosmas-cellphone-recovered/

Hamilton police Staff Sgt. Matt Kavanagh told media that Millard had contacted a man from the Etobicoke area to take a test drive in a Dodge Ram 3500 diesel truck he was selling prior to Bosma going missing. That man went on a test drive with two men and told police they were acting suspiciously.

The third man who was allegedly contacted by Millard lives in the Toronto area, McGreal said. He had a Dodge Ram 2500 diesel truck listed for sale on Kijiji and AutoTrader. He missed the phone call and a test drive was never arranged.

Kavanagh told CBC News Wednesday that the Etobicoke man and the Toronto man were interviewed by police. He said it's possible Millard may have contacted other truck owners.

"Down the road, there may be more people," Kavanagh said. "We've seized a lot of computer equipment that we have to go through."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...ler-tried-to-arrange-3rd-test-drive-1.1302075

 

[Juballee]

Just a few tidbits of information I find quite interesting and in case you've missed them. "If" the accused had thrill kill in mind, I don't think they really cared about doing a thorough inspection of any truck. A truck may have just been the excuse for luring their victim. If everything went according to plan, the truck would have been a bonus which they could chop in the hangar just as they did with the Harley Davidson motorcycle, which may I add was a fairly new.

Because LE and MSM did not report a play by play doesn't mean it didn't happen. Seems it will be at least a year before we get any of the details about that horrific night that an innocent, trusting family man with a beautiful wife and wee daughter was was so heartlessly murdered. MOO.

Interesting LE had seized a lot of computer equipment early in the case. Not to forgot a cell phone traced/tracked to Dellen, one belonging to TB and I suspect other phones which held crucial information. MOO.

No other items were recovered, but police said they were able to track the cellphone they believed the suspects used to contact Bosma.

That is how investigators were able to speak with the man in Etobicoke, who told police he thought it was suspicious that the men who arrived at his business to look at his truck were on foot. He was returned to his business after the test drive.

http://metronews.ca/news/hamilton/667353/missing-hamilton-man-tim-bosmas-cellphone-recovered/

Hamilton police Staff Sgt. Matt Kavanagh told media that Millard had contacted a man from the Etobicoke area to take a test drive in a Dodge Ram 3500 diesel truck he was selling prior to Bosma going missing. That man went on a test drive with two men and told police they were acting suspiciously.

The third man who was allegedly contacted by Millard lives in the Toronto area, McGreal said. He had a Dodge Ram 2500 diesel truck listed for sale on Kijiji and AutoTrader. He missed the phone call and a test drive was never arranged.

Kavanagh told CBC News Wednesday that the Etobicoke man and the Toronto man were interviewed by police. He said it's possible Millard may have contacted other truck owners.

"Down the road, there may be more people," Kavanagh said. "We've seized a lot of computer equipment that we have to go through."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...ler-tried-to-arrange-3rd-test-drive-1.1302075

If it was a thrill kill, why would they bother to only target people selling a Dodge Ram diesel truck? Why not pick up a homeless person no one would miss?

 

[ABro]

If it was a thrill kill, why would they bother to only target people selling a Dodge Ram diesel truck? Why not pick up a homeless person no one would miss?

Perhaps because they had already accomplished that. Laura Babcock was homeless at the time of her death, which was totally missed by the police.

It was time for a bigger challenge.

This is my theory only and unproven in a court of law.

 

[Tamarind]

If it was a thrill kill, why would they bother to only target people selling a Dodge Ram diesel truck? Why not pick up a homeless person no one would miss?

I don't think there was any thrill kill. I think if anyone had any intention of getting a thrill from killing, the last thing they would think of in my opinion, is bothering to search kijiji for a truck, go to the family home at risk of being seen and then hope that the truck owner actually goes on a test drive with them. It's all too unlikely for me to see that as an option. As for killing LB as a homeless person, that sounds a bit extreme. She had a job and was not exactly living in a cardboard box, she had the option to live at home but chose not to, and dropped her dog off there. Truly homeless people do not have jobs and no other options, this is just my opinion but I think it's on point (again just my view)

 

[robynhood]

LB was homeless....IMO a homeless person is one that has no permandent residence .....She was wondering from one friend's couch to anothers...and she did not have the Option ..JMO in living at home...She had troubles at her Parent's home and was very sick ..It is all noted in here and discussed in details....and I think TB was targeted for his truck ..Le said that at the beginning of the investigation ( see police video ) ....all the calls for RAM DESiel trucks were made for a REASON...they were seeking that truck...IMO seems obvious...( IMO again) ...what their purpose for wanting that exact RAM truck and an engine with diesel fuel I think was also discussed by members here in detail if my memory serves me correctly...I do believe after all the seizure of computers , phone and the cameras on the test drive...I believe ( IMO) a very clear picture shall emerge as we enter the court next year...at the present there is a publication BAN as you all know so details will not be told as this is a MAJOR murder trial ...multiple charges of murder as we all know....robynhood,,,,:thinking:

 

[ABro]

I don't think there was any thrill kill. I think if anyone had any intention of getting a thrill from killing, the last thing they would think of in my opinion, is bothering to search kijiji for a truck, go to the family home at risk of being seen and then hope that the truck owner actually goes on a test drive with them. It's all too unlikely for me to see that as an option.

TORONTO - Police are now considering a &#8220;thrill kill&#8221; as a possible motive for the mysterious slaying of Tim Bosma.

&#8220;It is seriously being looked at,&#8221; said one police source. &#8220;There is a theory that it was about stealing a truck but also hurting somebody.&#8221;

Stealing the truck is definitely also part of it.

&#8220;There was an obsession over that truck,&#8221; the copper said. &#8220;But there is potentially more since it could have easily been stolen anywhere.&#8221;

Instead, there was a staged event.

&#8220;Twisted would be the word,&#8221; an officer said.

Police are looking into a small, &#8220;close-knit group of friends&#8221; that hung around together.

Dellen Millard, charged with first-degree murder, was part of that group.

&#8220;Social media was a big part of their activities,&#8221; the source said.

One clue at the rural scene where the remains of slain 32-year-old Bosma were found was a portable farm incinerator, used to cremate dead farm animals.

&#8220;It&#8217;s like a crematorium,&#8221; the officer said. &#8220;How his body was disposed of would make the hair on the back of anyone&#8217;s neck curl up.&#8221;

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16/tim-bosmas-murder-may-have-been-thrill-kill-source

This is the same article that first mentioned Wayne Millard's cause of death:

For example, the Sun has learned that the death last December of the suspect&#8217;s father, Wayne Millard, was looked into by Toronto Police.

&#8220;He died from a gunshot wound to his eye, but it was ruled a suicide,&#8221; the officer said of the Millardair president. &#8220;If there was new information, as it would be on any case, the coroner could ask for it to be looked at again.&#8221;

The source(s) seems to have known what they were talking about.

 

[Alethea Dice]

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16/tim-bosmas-murder-may-have-been-thrill-kill-source

This is the same article that first mentioned Wayne Millard's cause of death:



The source(s) seems to have known what they were talking about.

Well, I guess it all comes down to whether one chooses to believe the unnamed police source "not involved in the investigation", or the lead investigator in the case.

Days before the body of Tim Bosma was discovered, Hamilton police speculated that he may have been murdered in a so-called thrill kill, a source has told the Star.
The source, who is not involved in the investigation, said police were considering that theory after Dellen Millard, 27, was arrested on May 11 in Mississauga.
But the lead investigator in the case denied that police were looking at the possibility the homicide may have been just for a thrill.
&#8220;I don&#8217;t know the motive for this,&#8221; Det. Sgt. Matt Kavanagh said Thursday. &#8220;I don&#8217;t even know what thrill kill means. It&#8217;s not been discussed. Where it&#8217;s coming from, I don&#8217;t know.&#8221;

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/17/tim_bosma_ancaster_man_was_killed_inside_truck_source_says.html

I'm not too sure what knowing about WM's death, or that the case had been reopened, has to do with the source knowing anything other than rumour about TB's case. In fact, I also don't remember any other source ever mentioning that WM was shot specifically in the eye, not that that makes any difference. If the source is from TPS, he could potentially be more likely to have that information.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

I don't think there was any thrill kill. I think if anyone had any intention of getting a thrill from killing, the last thing they would think of in my opinion, is bothering to search kijiji for a truck, go to the family home at risk of being seen and then hope that the truck owner actually goes on a test drive with them. It's all too unlikely for me to see that as an option. As for killing LB as a homeless person, that sounds a bit extreme. She had a job and was not exactly living in a cardboard box, she had the option to live at home but chose not to, and dropped her dog off there. Truly homeless people do not have jobs and no other options, this is just my opinion but I think it's on point (again just my view)

I agree. The thought of someone out for a "thrill kill" being bothered to care about what kind of vehicle the victim drove is a little far fetched for my realm of imagination.

JMO

 

[ABro]

Well, I guess it all comes down to whether one chooses to believe the unnamed police source "not involved in the investigation", or the lead investigator in the case.

I believe that, unlike an unnamed source, Kavanagh was in no position to speculate in public. He was responsible for dealing with the Bosma family and he was not going to go on the record in the media before talking to them and having solid evidence. As for him not knowing what a "thrill kill" is, I do find that rather implausible although it's possible he didn't know that particular term.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/17/tim_bosma_ancaster_man_was_killed_inside_truck_source_says.html

I'm not too sure what knowing about WM's death, or that the case had been reopened, has to do with the source knowing anything other than rumour about TB's case. In fact, I also don't remember any other source ever mentioning that WM was shot specifically in the eye, not that that makes any difference. If the source is from TPS, he could potentially be more likely to have that information.

JMO

This was the first report that Wayne Millard did not die of natural causes. We now know he was killed by a trafficked gun and that his son says he died of a brain bleed. In hindsight, the article's description's looking pretty accurate. On that basis, I'm willing to believe what the source said about the eye.

 

[andreww]

I agree, except we need to remember that there could have been a third party and there may also be evidence that we have not been made aware of. It seems that MS fits the categories listed but was it in fact him? I find it hard to believe that DM is guilty based on these stated categories for the reasons you have said, but I still feel there is something missing in this case and that makes me think that we should keep the 'innocent unless proven guilty' viewpoint for both accused. I for one am very interested in the facts that may come out at trial (s).

In the case of TB, I understand the point you are making, that MS is more likely to be the driving force behind the crime. That would not however make DM innocent. Also, in the two previous murders, MS really had nothing to gain. I still believe that DM was the mastermind and MS, a petty at best, just got caught up in it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Juballee]

Sometimes police use unnamed sources to introduce false or misleading information to the public intentionally. That is one of the reasons sources sometimes remain unnamed. If people prefer to believe an unnamed source who was not part of an investigation over the lead investigator speaking on record, that is each person's personal choice. Personally, I like things that are said on the record, because then we know who those words can be attributed to, and if they are lies, we know who we can hold accountable for lying.

 

[hopingforjustice]

Sometimes police use unnamed sources to introduce false or misleading information to the public intentionally. That is one of the reasons sources sometimes remain unnamed. If people prefer to believe an unnamed source who was not part of an investigation over the lead investigator speaking on record, that is each person's personal choice. Personally, I like things that are said on the record, because then we know who those words can be attributed to, and if they are lies, we know who we can hold accountable for lying.

I think we would all prefer all comments to be on the record. Just curious as to what benefit LE would have in having unnamed sources leak out false or misleading information? and do you have any examples of them actually doing this? TIA

 

[Tamarind]

In the case of TB, I understand the point you are making, that MS is more likely to be the driving force behind the crime. That would not however make DM innocent. Also, in the two previous murders, MS really had nothing to gain. I still believe that DM was the mastermind and MS, a petty at best, just got caught up in it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was not making a point that MS is more likely to be the driving force, just that i could see the points Juballee was making. I actually feel that there is something missing in the case that may come out at trial. Or it may not ! I think a few people share your belief Andreww and I guess a few share the opposite belief. Either way none of us know the real truth so it's all a case of speculation at the moment (imo)

 

[Tamarind]

I think we would all prefer all comments to be on the record. Just curious as to what benefit LE would have in having unnamed sources leak out false or misleading information? and do you have any examples of them actually doing this? TIA

One reason would be to give someone they are possibly watching a false sense of security. For example; if you say you are focusing in a certain area when in fact you are not, then the person being watched may think it's safe to go about business as usual.

 

[robynhood]

hmm ...I do not pretend to understand the TB case as it is far from anyone LOGICAL imagination ..How a man can list his truck for sale and end up dead?????....I do believe that there are NO CONNECTIONS between Tim Bosma and the ppl accused..JMHO that he was an INNOCENT victim of a horrible unimagineable crime that ended as we all know with a indignity to his BODY...personally I find it disgusting.. and I feel for Charlene as she knows that all she ended up with his a dam BOX!

Now if we look at what was found...several calls made to look at RAM DIESEL Trucks from DM phone and an actually visit to test drive that same kind of RAM Diesel Truck ...IMO how can we not think that the "TRUCK " was not a motive...I agree seems odd...kill and man for a truck...but do you really think Logic is involved with the accused..not to mention charges of murdering 2 other victims....HMMM.. kind of fishy ....JMHO... ...and YES we shall not know the whole story until court 2015...JMHO I do believe there shall be many missing puzzle pieces that fit...IMO..but we shall all see...I will grind my teeth as I twitter it in here ....not looking forward to the horrible details....have a great night to all....robynhood