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jhulford said:
I think the witness van is the one that is seen passing by during the few seconds of footage from the CASS CCTV, and the other vehicle that's been mentioned is one that passed by about five minutes later. No footage that I know of. I don't know if the later one has been identified, but the one in the frames with Tori and POI has been. A poster here said it was his/ her neighbour, AFAIR.

Does anyone know off hand the wheelbase of a 2003 Honda Civic 4 door?
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the length of the Honda Civic is standard 174.6 inches

the wheelbase is 103.1 inches

the weight is 2,449 lbs.
 
There was several cars on that video, but the le cleared them all, except the last one, the stationwagon. All drivers were questioned for a possible witnessess to the perp and TS walking down the street. The last vehicle, the wagon could not be found immediately and that is why the police put out that bulletin, hoping to find that driver, and question him/her if they saw anything regarding the abduction of TS.
 
bleedingheart said:
the length of the Honda Civic is standard 174.6 inches

the wheelbase is 103.1 inches

the weight is 2,449 lbs.
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Thanks BH! In the May 4 Oxford press release Cst. Maitland said/ read:

... investigators are releasing a new segment of video and still footage from the surveillance tape camera. In the video investigators have identified the footage of a small to midsized dark colored station wagon with approximately 262 cm wheelbase. The vehicle was driving northbound on Fyfe Ave in the city of Woodstock after Tori was seen with the unidentified woman.
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http://www.livestream.com/lfpress?referrer=mogulus

on demand, may 4 Police press conference.

Interesting, because 103.1 inches is 262 cm rounded. Wouldn't one of those mini station wagon type cars have a longer wheelbase?
 
Man! These car sitings are confusing:

Meanwhile, sources told The Free Press the Honda Civic belonging to accused Michael Rafferty was seen in a surveillance video a few minutes after Tori and her abductor walked along Fyfe Avenue.

Police are seeking the backseat of the car and witnesses who might have seen it after Tori’s abduction on April 8.

Investigators haven’t said who was driving the car, but say it was involved in the abduction and have scoured it for clues.

Police describe the car as blue with black spray paint on portions of it. In the video, the car appears to have no spray paint on it.

Tori and the woman who lured her from Oliver Stephens public school appear in a surveillance video from a nearby high school at 3:32 p.m. on April 8. They are heading north on Fyfe Avenue.

Five minutes later, the blue car is seen heading north on the same street.
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http://www.lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/05/27/9592696.html

So, I wonder, was there a witness car (the blue station wagon) and Rafferty's Honda passing by 5 minutes after Tori and the POI left Fyfe and crossed the road (if they did).
 
jhulford said:
Man! These car sitings are confusing:



http://www.lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/05/27/9592696.html

So, I wonder, was there a witness car (the blue station wagon) and Rafferty's Honda passing by 5 minutes after Tori and the POI left Fyfe and crossed the road (if they did).
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If MR picked them up on Fyfe Ave, you would think it would be shown on the video that these pics are taken from.
I am getting confused about these cars. All I know is that the blue station wagon is the neighbors and they are innocent of any wrong doing, and any other cars/drivers shown where cleared as potential witnessess, they did not see anything or could not remember after the lapse of time the LE showed these videos, between the actual walk down Fyfe and the release of the video of the perp and TS.
 
jhulford said:
Man! These car sitings are confusing:



http://www.lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/2009/05/27/9592696.html

So, I wonder, was there a witness car (the blue station wagon) and Rafferty's Honda passing by 5 minutes after Tori and the POI left Fyfe and crossed the road (if they did).
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Could this possibly be the clue to their arrest of M.R.???? Do they have a piece of that video showing MR and TLM putting TS into the car on Fyfe St.????????????
I am sure they have only shown pieces of that video to keep us happy, they would withhold anything of value for themselves to investigate, as it should be.
 
antiquegirl said:
I think this is another example of media error and only the station wagon was seen 5 minutes after the abduction.

MOO
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I agree with you AG. I am still trying to locate the PC of Const. Maitland talking about those cars and their drivers as possible witnesses. Hope I find it soon.
At that time there was no mention of the Honda going down Fyfe St.
Could be LE kept it confidential at that time,
 
bleedingheart said:
Could this possibly be the clue to their arrest of M.R.???? Do they have a piece of that video showing MR and TLM putting TS into the car on Fyfe St.????????????
I am sure they have only shown pieces of that video to keep us happy, they would withhold anything of value for themselves to investigate, as it should be.
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(BBM)

From the article you posted, BH:

"Renton refused to explain why there was a gap of about a week from when police knew about the male suspect to when he was arrested"

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/canada/2009/05/21/9520976-sun.html

If Det. Insp. Renton is considered a credible source, then I have to deduce that LE did not have any knowledge of MTR until a week before his arrest. This would also possibly negate any speculation that LE seriously considered TLM as a suspect in the abduction until about this time, since her phone calls and visit(s) with MTR would have immediately put him under suspicion.

MOO
 
Then the May 4 presser with Maitland stating that all the cars that traveled up Fyfe that afternoon had been cleared except the dark coloured station wagon that travelled past five minutes later is a moot lead. If the later 'witness' vehicle is BH's neighbour and has been cleared, then Mr. Richmond in his article May 27 had the later station wagon confused with the gas station video. Do you remember the date your neighbour was found BH?

The wheelbase is irrelevant, because after a little research I found that some of those little station wagons have a smaller wheelbase than the Civic 4 door, lol.
 
jhulford said:
Then the May 4 presser with Maitland stating that all the cars that traveled up Fyfe that afternoon had been cleared except the dark coloured station wagon that travelled past five minutes later is a moot lead. If the later 'witness' vehicle is BH's neighbour and has been cleared, then Mr. Richmond in his article May 27 had the later station wagon confused with the gas station video. Do you remember the date your neighbour was found BH?

The wheelbase is irrelevant, because after a little research I found that some of those little station wagons have a smaller wheelbase than the Civic 4 door, lol.
Click to expand...

I don't remember anymore, Was prob sometime in July, jh..If I see the neighbor outside I will go and ask them about it.They work shift work so do not see them sometimes for weeks at a time.
Thank you for looking up that link, saves me a bit of time to look for other things
 
jhulford said:
Then the May 4 presser with Maitland stating that all the cars that traveled up Fyfe that afternoon had been cleared except the dark coloured station wagon that travelled past five minutes later is a moot lead. If the later 'witness' vehicle is BH's neighbour and has been cleared, then Mr. Richmond in his article May 27 had the later station wagon confused with the gas station video. Do you remember the date your neighbour was found BH?

The wheelbase is irrelevant, because after a little research I found that some of those little station wagons have a smaller wheelbase than the Civic 4 door, lol.
Click to expand...

I am kind of howling right now. I can't imagine in a city the size of Woodstock that MR's car wasn't noticed everywhere he went in it... it must have stuck out like a sore thumb. Surely if it had been on Fyfe or in the area that day somebody would have remembered it and if it had been caught on tape it wouldn't be hard to track it down. "Um, yah, there was this car and it was like painted really weird and there was some big dude in it driving". I am sure that if I ever saw it anywhere I would remember - and I'll bet the ranch that most of the officers in town were familiar with the sight of it rocketing from place to place.

Mr Cha has a rather distinctive pickup truck - the color is highly unusual and it is decked out rather nicely. People remember it, and know where it lives and because of that know Mr Cha to see him. It's not the type of vehicle you would use to rob a variety store or a bank (we try to keep that to a minimum) because it is so conspicuous.

I doubt that LE had any tape of or early tips on MR's car's presence at the school or they would have tracked him down when they were questioning the drivers of other vehicles (i.e. the station wagon). I can't think of a more unlikely vehicle for abduction than MR's civic (other than Mr Cha's pickup). Might as well put a sign on the back saying "LOOK AT ME!"
 
ChaChaCha said:
I am kind of howling right now. I can't imagine in a city the size of Woodstock that MR's car wasn't noticed everywhere he went in it... it must have stuck out like a sore thumb. Surely if it had been on Fyfe or in the area that day somebody would have remembered it and if it had been caught on tape it wouldn't be hard to track it down. "Um, yah, there was this car and it was like painted really weird and there was some big dude in it driving". I am sure that if I ever saw it anywhere I would remember - and I'll bet the ranch that most of the officers in town were familiar with the sight of it rocketing from place to place.

Mr Cha has a rather distinctive pickup truck - the color is highly unusual and it is decked out rather nicely. People remember it, and know where it lives and because of that know Mr Cha to see him. It's not the type of vehicle you would use to rob a variety store or a bank (we try to keep that to a minimum) because it is so conspicuous.

I doubt that LE had any tape of or early tips on MR's car's presence at the school or they would have tracked him down when they were questioning the drivers of other vehicles (i.e. the station wagon). I can't think of a more unlikely vehicle for abduction than MR's civic (other than Mr Cha's pickup). Might as well put a sign on the back saying "LOOK AT ME!"
Click to expand...

I have to agree with ChaChaCha here. I seriously doubt that MR's car was picked up on any video surveillance from the CASS video. I tend to agree with the posters who speculate that TLM walked Tori up to the end of that street beside the nursing home and through to the other street. Sorry, can't remember the names of the streets right now.
 
ChaChaCha said:
I am kind of howling right now. I can't imagine in a city the size of Woodstock that MR's car wasn't noticed everywhere he went in it... it must have stuck out like a sore thumb. Surely if it had been on Fyfe or in the area that day somebody would have remembered it and if it had been caught on tape it wouldn't be hard to track it down. "Um, yah, there was this car and it was like painted really weird and there was some big dude in it driving". I am sure that if I ever saw it anywhere I would remember - and I'll bet the ranch that most of the officers in town were familiar with the sight of it rocketing from place to place.

Mr Cha has a rather distinctive pickup truck - the color is highly unusual and it is decked out rather nicely. People remember it, and know where it lives and because of that know Mr Cha to see him. It's not the type of vehicle you would use to rob a variety store or a bank (we try to keep that to a minimum) because it is so conspicuous.

I doubt that LE had any tape of or early tips on MR's car's presence at the school or they would have tracked him down when they were questioning the drivers of other vehicles (i.e. the station wagon). I can't think of a more unlikely vehicle for abduction than MR's civic (other than Mr Cha's pickup). Might as well put a sign on the back saying "LOOK AT ME!"
Click to expand...
Cha, Woodstock is a city, it is 10 miles sq. and has over 36,000 population. It may not sound large in comparison to other cities, but its not a Burg where you know everyone. This crime happened on the other side of town to where I reside, and I have no reason to go anywhere near where the people in question live.
Same as MR. He would have no reason to come to my section of town as there is nothing for him to be doing there.(Meaning it is all residential.)
Most of the action for young folks in this town is Dundas St and Norwich Ave. If you happen to go down town(Dundas St.) especially in the evening, these are the streets where you will most likely see the younger ones "cruising" up and down the streets. A&W (Norwich Ave.) is another spot car lovers frequent, young and old alike showing off their cars, vintage or otherwise.
I do not venture out on foot in the evenings anymore in this city as it is not safe to do so with all the drug problems, thefts, violence.
I doubt that MR and TLM were thinking too clearly about too much when this happened. They had a mission to complete and so be it. I would think that neither thought of the consequences of this crime until they were caught and now are sitting in jail thinking about it. More likely they are thinking "Poor US" what did we do???
I know these two are to be considered innocent until proven guilty of the crime against little Tori,so I pray that the truth will come out and whoever did indeed do this to her will be given the the harshest punishment ever served in a Canadian Court.jmoo~BH
~~~Rest in peace lil one, justice will be served~~~
 
bleedingheart said:
Cha, Woodstock is a city, it is 10 miles sq. and has over 36,000 population. It may not sound large in comparison to other cities, but its not a Burg where you know everyone. This crime happened on the other side of town to where I reside, and I have no reason to go anywhere near where the people in question live.
Same as MR. He would have no reason to come to my section of town as there is nothing for him to be doing there.(Meaning it is all residential.)
Most of the action for young folks in this town is Dundas St and Norwich Ave. If you happen to go down town(Dundas St.) especially in the evening, these are the streets where you will most likely see the younger ones "cruising" up and down the streets. A&W (Norwich Ave.) is another spot car lovers frequent, young and old alike showing off their cars, vintage or otherwise.
I do not venture out on foot in the evenings anymore in this city as it is not safe to do so with all the drug problems, thefts, violence.
I doubt that MR and TLM were thinking too clearly about too much when this happened. They had a mission to complete and so be it. I would think that neither thought of the consequences of this crime until they were caught and now are sitting in jail thinking about it. More likely they are thinking "Poor US" what did we do???
I know these two are to be considered innocent until proven guilty of the crime against little Tori,so I pray that the truth will come out and whoever did indeed do this to her will be given the the harshest punishment ever served in a Canadian Court.jmoo~BH
~~~Rest in peace lil one, justice will be served~~~
Click to expand...

Undoubtedly a horrible and stupid thing for them to do. I can't imagine that there is any reason why they should be shown any leniency whatsoever - but should instead be prosecuted to the greatest extent of the law. LE and the prosecutors should be following up still on the information they have to ensure that no stone is left unturned. I do not believe that there is any excuse ever for anyone to willfully take an innocent person's life. If there is sufficient evidence to lay charges and proceed to trial then I say that the case should be tried on that evidence and the serious nature of the crime, and that there should not be any subrogation of the charges or the punishment on account of an accused's poor upbringing. After all, these are not three year olds - they are young adults that have had sufficient time in the world to know what is right and what is wrong on the most basic of levels.

I am going to have to take a cruise thru Woodstock again the next time we are up that way. I didn't realize that most of the players lived on the same side of town... for some reason I thought that MR lived in the burbs? I'll have to get my map out though (no GPS!) so I don't get lost - my navigation skills are limited and I usually only go where I need to be (my friend's, the fair, the hospital or the specialist's office!) and then a bit of lunch, shopping and home again...

Although you will all remember that I was quite willing to go to GTC with y'all, so long as I get to sit with my back against the wall!
 
ChaChaCha said:
Undoubtedly a horrible and stupid thing for them to do. I can't imagine that there is any reason why they should be shown any leniency whatsoever - but should instead be prosecuted to the greatest extent of the law. LE and the prosecutors should be following up still on the information they have to ensure that no stone is left unturned. I do not believe that there is any excuse ever for anyone to willfully take an innocent person's life. If there is sufficient evidence to lay charges and proceed to trial then I say that the case should be tried on that evidence and the serious nature of the crime, and that there should not be any subrogation of the charges or the punishment on account of an accused's poor upbringing. After all, these are not three year olds - they are young adults that have had sufficient time in the world to know what is right and what is wrong on the most basic of levels.

I am going to have to take a cruise thru Woodstock again the next time we are up that way. I didn't realize that most of the players lived on the same side of town... for some reason I thought that MR lived in the burbs? I'll have to get my map out though (no GPS!) so I don't get lost - my navigation skills are limited and I usually only go where I need to be (my friend's, the fair, the hospital or the specialist's office!) and then a bit of lunch, shopping and home again...

Although you will all remember that I was quite willing to go to GTC with y'all, so long as I get to sit with my back against the wall!
Click to expand...
I agree with you whole heartedly, Cha. Nothing must go wrong in this trial,and no deals that will make a mockery of this little girl's life that the perpetrators took away from her.
 
MTR has a court appearance this week, Sept 25th if I remember correctly. Any idea what will happen at this one?
 
flipflop said:
MTR has a court appearance this week, Sept 25th if I remember correctly. Any idea what will happen at this one?
Click to expand...

I hope they update the charges and let us know what we have all been fearing happened to poor little Tori.
 
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