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It still bothers me that JBP rushed to get this jury seated cuz he had a vacation to tend to. I'm not saying it mattered here nor there, as I can't say if there would have been a different outcome. However, when you have a death penalty case to try vs. a vacation, the case should have been placed at a higher priority :(

MOOOO

Mel

My thoughts on HHJP rushing to seat this jury are that he didn't. What he did over and over again was give the Defense fair warning they were not going to be able to drag the jury selection on for days and days like they did the Frye hearings and everything else they did.

He wanted the Defense to stick to specific areas only and gave them written instructions on how to do so. And most importantly, he said a number of times during the jury selection that they would be there as long as it took, and if a jury couldn't be found there they would go back to Orange County and chose one.

I watched the jury selection which I would hardly call rushed. Every time Ann Finnell got up - time stood still....it was crashingly boring as she gave the same long lecture to every single prospective juror. Just thinking about it makes me want to bang my head on my desk over and over again.

To my eyes and ears - the media sang about it because they couldn't talk much about the selection and made a big deal about something that wasn't. HHJP simply said - just get on with it and get it done - it's not rocket science.
 
I don't think it was his vacation. One of the jurors, I know, had vacation plans in the middle of July. I think they had planned a cruise. jmo

They had alternates - what was the big deal if they ran over?
 
My thoughts on HHJP rushing to seat this jury are that he didn't. What he did over and over again was give the Defense fair warning they were not going to be able to drag the jury selection on for days and days like they did the Frye hearings and everything else they did.

He wanted the Defense to stick to specific areas only and gave them written instructions on how to do so. And most importantly, he said a number of times during the jury selection that they would be there as long as it took, and if a jury couldn't be found there they would go back to Orange County and chose one.

I watched the jury selection which I would hardly call rushed. Every time Ann Finnell got up - time stood still....it was crashingly boring as she gave the same long lecture to every single prospective juror. Just thinking about it makes me want to bang my head on my desk over and over again.

To my eyes and ears - the media sang about it because they couldn't talk much about the selection and made a big deal about something that wasn't. HHJP simply said - just get on with it and get it done - it's not rocket science.

I agree. I don't think jury selection was rushed at all. I sat through jury selection for a case here in Ohio. It was a murder trial for a man accused of killing his foster child. The death penalty wasn't on the table, but there was a first degree murder charge, among other things. Jury selection went from about 9 am to almost 5 pm, with a few short breaks and of course, lunch. I understand that a death penalty case would take longer, but not that much longer. There's only so many questions to ask - at some point, you have to sit back and let it go. Jury selection is a crapshoot. You can guess how people will behave because of the information you've collected, but ultimately, people are individuals and all you're doing is guessing.

Jury selection wasn't rushed at all, I don't think. HHJP just didn't let the defense drag it out forever for no reason.
 
One thing I never understood is why the jury did not question all the witnesses JB called that had nothing to do with anything other than LE collected it with evidence but found nothing to connect it to the crime scene? At the least as a juror I would want to know if I missed something about an article placed in evidence that had no story attached to it. jmo
 
my bolding/snip


I've read all the docs...where did you find exculpatory evidence? I've never seen any...

this is why I feel that saying the media was responsible for public opinion is not accurate: I dont know if it can be so for the average person who truly didnt pay attn (like the jurors who said they did not), compared to those of us who pored of every doc and watched through every hearing.

ITA
The media reported on the information that was released via Sunshine Law - and I am still trying to understand how that swayed public opinion???? And "public opinion" has squat to do with the verdict - And "public opinion" was based on the released evidence, so if the public thought fca was guilty, that opinion was based on the same info that was presented to the jurors at trial. The only speculative info that was presented through the media was offered up by the defense.
 
I can see this thread getting shut down...Websleuthes has a great reputation...members who enjoy coming here should want to protect that reputation. We sleuth...we find information-proof to back up our theorys...I still suspect something hinky about the verdict. In the video of the verdict reading JB is looking towards the jurors. He *advertiser censored* his head and it looks like he smiles just a little...very suttle. It looks to me like he is singling someone out. I can't get anyone to go watch and give me their opinion...no one wants to watch that video..I didn't either but when I saw that I had to...jmo

Catching up here - but if was anything like CA's smile I am glad I didn't see it because I can't get her smile out of my head. :maddening:
 
my bolding/snip


I've read all the docs...where did you find exculpatory evidence? I've never seen any...

this is why I feel that saying the media was responsible for public opinion is not accurate: I dont know if it can be so for the average person who truly didnt pay attn (like the jurors who said they did not), compared to those of us who pored of every doc and watched through every hearing.

In the evidence and document threads here on WS, there were many spirited, sometimes heated debates over what certain evidence would prove or disprove during the trial. Most of these debates were triggered by research done by WS'ers, not by what the media had reported. As a participant in many of these spirited debates, there was a lot of evidence in the docs that could have been interpreted as exculpatory, but could also have been interpreted on not being exculpatory. That is why the debates became circular. The majority usually interpreted the evidence to either be inculpatory, or basically irrelevant.

One piece of evidence in the docs was the adipocere like substance found on the tissues/napkins in the white trash bag from the trunk of the Pontiac. The media usually called it adipocere, stating it as fact, although occasionally some reported it was an adipocere like substance. Basically, the media was saying, because adipocere was found on these napkins/tissues, and adipocere comes from a decomposing body, Caylee was in the trunk, and KC was therefore guilty. The general public heard and read this for 3 years. In court however, things were different. In court the jurors heard that this was an adipocere like substance, and were told what this adipocere like substance consisted of. The defense then showed that cheese consisted of the same substances that this adipocere like substance consisted of. The arguments in court were much more technical, but basically, the prosecution could have had done further testing on the adipocere like substance to remove any doubt as to whether it was indeed adipocere, or if it was just a substance that was like adipocere. The prosecution did not have the further testing done, and so, in the courtroom, the defense was able to raise reasonable doubt to that part of the prosecutions case. In the eyes of the jurors, maybe it was adipocere, and maybe it wasn't, and in case of a tie, they are instructed lean towards the defendant, which they did.

The smell of death, the chloroform levels, the hair with apparent decomp, the heart shaped sticker, etc. etc. were all in the docs released via the Sunshine Law. The way an individual interpreted whether this evidence was inculpatory or exculpatory was basically a matter of opinion. The way the media interpreted nearly all of the evidence, in their opinions, was presented as inculpatory.

The jurors heard the defense experts rebutt the prosecutions experts. The media reported that the defense experts were turned into prosecution witnesses by JA. That was the opinion of the media, but that obviously was not the opinion of the jurors. The jurors, by finding a not guilty verdict on the first three counts, showed their opinion was the prosecution did not prove KC's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

These jurors looked only at what was presented, and the media watched these jurors, and reported on what the media thought the jury was thinking. The media thought wrong in their assessment of what the jurors were thinking. Now the jurors have had their names released, so if they chose to speak, I hope it is live, so the media doesn't have the chance to edit and shape what the jurors have to say.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
 
The media took what they wanted from the Sunshine Law, and chose not to report anything the slightest bit exculpatory from the documents. Instead they chose to report, and highlight everything inculpatory from the documents. This bolstered the story the media was telling to the public, which in turn made the media the most money they could make.

This jury did not have the luxury of ignoring the exculpatory facts in this case. This jury reached a verdict of not guilty, because, in the eyes of these jurors, after listening to both the PT and the DT, and seeing all the evidence presented at trial, they felt the prosecution had not proven KC was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

In the court of public opinion, the media sold its story, and convinced the public the story was the truth. In a court of law, however, the jurors verdict of not guilty, shows that what the media portrayed as the truth, did not hold up in court and meet the burden of proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Who is to blame for the way the media reported this story for 3 years, if not the media? The jurors were only involved in this case for a couple of months, and they were told everything the prosecution had to tell them, and then they were told everything the defense had to tell them. This was totally different than what the media had been doing for three years, so it should not have been a shocking surprise, that after hearing both sides of the story, that the jury did not find KC guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

If any of these jurors decide to speak, I hope it will be on a live show, with no editing. Otherwise, the media will just edit out what they think puts the media in a bad light. If its live, then we get to hear what the jurors really have to say, not the media edited version.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

Are you saying the jury came to the correct verdict? Please list exculpatory evidence.
 
Why is it that peeps forget two things?? He was facing the man who accused him of abusing both his daughter and his grand daughter, a man who wanted him to lose his temper and was taunting him. JB was playing a trick with George because he asked him about gas cans from one event that were pictured in another event. He was also accusing George of putting his grand daughter in trash bags and dumping or arranging for her to be dumped down the street in a swamp, to be torn apart by scavengers.

The other point is that George was being very careful not to contradict his deposition because if he did - it was considered perjury.

Have a heart peeps - think about it! The DT took every possible advantage of who George is to fit in with their lies...er theories! :furious:

I don't like George or the way he has handled himself during this tragedy, but there is no evidence whatsoever he committed any crime that could have been included in this trial. OCA was found not guilty by this jury and the responsibility for it lies at their feet only.


During the trial I quesitoned many times why GA was never arrested for the molestation charges. The answer is that his daughter and her team of lawyers would not press charges - because they didn't want GA to have an opportunity to defend himself.

This in itself lead me to be believe the allegations of sexual abuse were not true.
 
Only 4 pages on this thread anybody feel their blood pressure going up?
 
My curiousity lies mostly now with whether or not these jurors got to read alot of the evidence they didn't see or hear during the trial, after the fact which is the reason for the public outrage over the verdict. Do they question whether they may have let a killer go free based on the evidence that they now know and has that effected their lives?
 
I agree. I don't think jury selection was rushed at all. I sat through jury selection for a case here in Ohio. It was a murder trial for a man accused of killing his foster child. The death penalty wasn't on the table, but there was a first degree murder charge, among other things. Jury selection went from about 9 am to almost 5 pm, with a few short breaks and of course, lunch. I understand that a death penalty case would take longer, but not that much longer. There's only so many questions to ask - at some point, you have to sit back and let it go. Jury selection is a crapshoot. You can guess how people will behave because of the information you've collected, but ultimately, people are individuals and all you're doing is guessing.

Jury selection wasn't rushed at all, I don't think. HHJP just didn't let the defense drag it out forever for no reason.

ITA & rbbm
I am not giving any credit to Defense for Jury selection. They got who they got, period - the one exception is the juror that said she wouldn't judge people and they got her in by saying the State was excluding her because of her race.
 
In the evidence and document threads here on WS, there were many spirited, sometimes heated debates over what certain evidence would prove or disprove during the trial. Most of these debates were triggered by research done by WS'ers, not by what the media had reported. As a participant in many of these spirited debates, there was a lot of evidence in the docs that could have been interpreted as exculpatory, but could also have been interpreted on not being exculpatory. That is why the debates became circular. The majority usually interpreted the evidence to either be inculpatory, or basically irrelevant.

One piece of evidence in the docs was the adipocere like substance found on the tissues/napkins in the white trash bag from the trunk of the Pontiac. The media usually called it adipocere, stating it as fact, although occasionally some reported it was an adipocere like substance. Basically, the media was saying, because adipocere was found on these napkins/tissues, and adipocere comes from a decomposing body, Caylee was in the trunk, and KC was therefore guilty. The general public heard and read this for 3 years. In court however, things were different. In court the jurors heard that this was an adipocere like substance, and were told what this adipocere like substance consisted of. The defense then showed that cheese consisted of the same substances that this adipocere like substance consisted of. The arguments in court were much more technical, but basically, the prosecution could have had done further testing on the adipocere like substance to remove any doubt as to whether it was indeed adipocere, or if it was just a substance that was like adipocere. The prosecution did not have the further testing done, and so, in the courtroom, the defense was able to raise reasonable doubt to that part of the prosecutions case. In the eyes of the jurors, maybe it was adipocere, and maybe it wasn't, and in case of a tie, they are instructed lean towards the defendant, which they did.

The smell of death, the chloroform levels, the hair with apparent decomp, the heart shaped sticker, etc. etc. were all in the docs released via the Sunshine Law. The way an individual interpreted whether this evidence was inculpatory or exculpatory was basically a matter of opinion. The way the media interpreted nearly all of the evidence, in their opinions, was presented as inculpatory.

The jurors heard the defense experts rebutt the prosecutions experts. The media reported that the defense experts were turned into prosecution witnesses by JA. That was the opinion of the media, but that obviously was not the opinion of the jurors. The jurors, by finding a not guilty verdict on the first three counts, showed their opinion was the prosecution did not prove KC's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

These jurors looked only at what was presented, and the media watched these jurors, and reported on what the media thought the jury was thinking. The media thought wrong in their assessment of what the jurors were thinking. Now the jurors have had their names released, so if they chose to speak, I hope it is live, so the media doesn't have the chance to edit and shape what the jurors have to say.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

these examples are NOT exculpatory. They are just not 100% confirmed. Science really never is. I mean seriously. A car smells, a child is dead AND a substance appears to be adipocere. What are the ODDS? No tie here.
 
My curiousity lies mostly now with whether or not these jurors got to read alot of the evidence they didn't see or hear during the trial, after the fact which is the reason for the public outrage over the verdict. Do they question whether they may have let a killer go free based on the evidence that they now know and has that effected their lives?

I don't know about that - but I followed the trial, daily, and heard what evidence was presented during the trial and that evidence pointed to fca as being guilty in one form or another in the death of Caylee. I don't have an agenda here - to me the evidence added up to fca being guilty - not because I have it in for fca, I don't know fca and not because, like the defense would like us to think, not because I am female, a mother and have it in for young pretty fca - The evidence, the circumstantial evidence, collectively pointed to one person, fca.
I do think there is a possibility that the female jurors were not alpha and gave in to the opinions of the male jurors that were influenced by young pretty little fca.
 
Why is it that peeps forget two things?? He was facing the man who accused him of abusing both his daughter and his grand daughter, a man who wanted him to lose his temper and was taunting him. JB was playing a trick with George because he asked him about gas cans from one event that were pictured in another event. He was also accusing George of putting his grand daughter in trash bags and dumping or arranging for her to be dumped down the street in a swamp, to be torn apart by scavengers.

The other point is that George was being very careful not to contradict his deposition because if he did - it was considered perjury.

Have a heart peeps - think about it! The DT took every possible advantage of who George is to fit in with their lies...er theories! :furious:

I don't like George or the way he has handled himself during this tragedy, but there is no evidence whatsoever he committed any crime that could have been included in this trial. OCA was found not guilty by this jury and the responsibility for it lies at their feet only.

I do not forget these things. I just think its possible for a person to be mature and answer questions directly when they dislike greatly the person posing the question. I think you are right though...he was trying not to contradict his earlier statements and it showed...to us. To the jury it looked like he was overly cautious in his speech, looking suspicious. Mainly, though, he kept saying he didnt understand what was being asked, or saying he was answering a question when he was not. He kept making JB repeat himself and I believe he even said that JB was trying to trick him or something to that effect that came across as suspicious as well. It was very clear what questions JB was asking and GA kept acting like he could not understand. It was ridiculous and childish.

I think the DT played GA masterfully. Easily provoked, easily implicated. The DT said GA knew what happened and covered it up (just like kc) and GA gave the jury no reason to think otherwise.

No, GA was not on trial. But the defense did a decent job of saying it was possibly him. He had no motive...according to what the state presented at trial, neither did KC. KC lied and lied,, and so did GA. The state attempted to paint the other As as normal people, and this probably did not help their cause either because they all looked crazy during the trial. If GA knew about Caylee's death, how did he go to work afterwards all normal?? The same can be said about KC renting movies with TL.

I personally hate the decision the jury made, and I think they could have found her guilty. But they did not. I personally wish she had gotten the DP. I felt the entire trial that the state was presenting one case, the DT was presenting another, and the state just kind of ignored what the DT threw out there, which I feel was a mistake.
 
I hope the jurors never talk to the press - there is nothing they can say that will change my opinion - that they did not know what they were doing and did not, I repeat, did not spend ample amount of time going over the evidence during deliberations which leads me to also think that there is a possibility that at least a few of them, did discuss the the trial before deliberation.I figure the law of averages would be that sometimes a seated jury would consist of geniuses, sometimes a mix of genius and average everyday people and sometimes fools -
 
I do not forget these things. I just think its possible for a person to be mature and answer questions directly when they dislike greatly the person posing the question. I think you are right though...he was trying not to contradict his earlier statements and it showed...to us. To the jury it looked like he was overly cautious in his speech, looking suspicious. Mainly, though, he kept saying he didnt understand what was being asked, or saying he was answering a question when he was not. He kept making JB repeat himself and I believe he even said that JB was trying to trick him or something to that effect that came across as suspicious as well. It was very clear what questions JB was asking and GA kept acting like he could not understand. It was ridiculous and childish.

I think the DT played GA masterfully. Easily provoked, easily implicated. The DT said GA knew what happened and covered it up (just like kc) and GA gave the jury no reason to think otherwise.

No, GA was not on trial. But the defense did a decent job of saying it was possibly him. He had no motive...according to what the state presented at trial, neither did KC. KC lied and lied,, and so did GA. The state attempted to paint the other As as normal people, and this probably did not help their cause either because they all looked crazy during the trial. If GA knew about Caylee's death, how did he go to work afterwards all normal?? The same can be said about KC renting movies with TL.

I personally hate the decision the jury made, and I think they could have found her guilty. But they did not. I personally wish she had gotten the DP. I felt the entire trial that the state was presenting one case, the DT was presenting another, and the state just kind of ignored what the DT threw out there, which I feel was a mistake.

Re: my first BBM - I think you must have missed my line that said the DT took advantage of who George is.....and although I don't consider him mature - he answered the abuse claims fairly calmly.

George was not on trial, and his lies did not have to do with whether or not he lied about where his child was for 31 days, and OCA did.

George had no reason to dispose of Caylee - OCA did. She was OCA's responsibility to care for 24 hours a day for the next 16 years - and clearly she did not want that responsibility and she did not want her parents to have that responsibility either. OCA didn't want her - period.

Now how this jury could not see that the mother of the dead child - who did not work and lived with this child in the home of her parents, who did both work full time -was her primary caretaker - I will never understand.
 
I do not forget these things. I just think its possible for a person to be mature and answer questions directly when they dislike greatly the person posing the question. I think you are right though...he was trying not to contradict his earlier statements and it showed...to us. To the jury it looked like he was overly cautious in his speech, looking suspicious. Mainly, though, he kept saying he didnt understand what was being asked, or saying he was answering a question when he was not. He kept making JB repeat himself and I believe he even said that JB was trying to trick him or something to that effect that came across as suspicious as well. It was very clear what questions JB was asking and GA kept acting like he could not understand. It was ridiculous and childish.

I think the DT played GA masterfully. Easily provoked, easily implicated. The DT said GA knew what happened and covered it up (just like kc) and GA gave the jury no reason to think otherwise.

No, GA was not on trial. But the defense did a decent job of saying it was possibly him. He had no motive...according to what the state presented at trial, neither did KC. KC lied and lied,, and so did GA. The state attempted to paint the other As as normal people, and this probably did not help their cause either because they all looked crazy during the trial. If GA knew about Caylee's death, how did he go to work afterwards all normal?? The same can be said about KC renting movies with TL.

I personally hate the decision the jury made, and I think they could have found her guilty. But they did not. I personally wish she had gotten the DP. I felt the entire trial that the state was presenting one case, the DT was presenting another, and the state just kind of ignored what the DT threw out there, which I feel was a mistake.

The jurors ignored the fact that the State was presenting a case that they followed up with evidence and expert opinions - the defense was throwing out some theories that they never, never followed up with any expert opinions or evidence.
 
these examples are NOT exculpatory. They are just not 100% confirmed. Science really never is. I mean seriously. A car smells, a child is dead AND a substance appears to be adipocere. What are the ODDS? No tie here.

The jurors in this case decided their verdict upon what was presented in court. What my opinions on what was inculpatory or exculpatory are irrelevant. I do agree with the verdict rendered, as I would have rendered the same verdict. My opinions on the evidence has been expressed numerous times in many threads, and have often been challenged.

When I give the opinion that I agree with the verdict, and then give examples of why I think they voted the way they did, that is all I am doing, stating an opinion. Most people cannot believe or understand why the jurors rendered the verdict they did.

I am fully aware that my opinion about the verdict is not popular. I could simply say "the jury got it right" and leave it at that, but I have been asked many times over the last couple of years as to how I came to the conclusions I have, and I have tried to explain how I came to the conclusion the the prosecution did not prove KC's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

My opinions have earned me the same reactions that the jury earned when they rendered the verdict of not guilty. I really enjoy posting here at WS, and I truly like the posters here. Just because the majority here disagrees with my opinions, doesn't mean I am a bad person, it just means I have a different opinion about the verdict in this case than most on this site do.

By the same token, the jurors are not bad people either. They were given a job to do, and even though the verdict they delivered was not one that was popular, it was simply the verdict they determined unanimously as the correct verdict to give in this case. Hopefully they will not be treated by the general public with any more dissatisfaction over the verdict, than I have been treated by WS'ers with their dissatisfaction over my opinion of the verdict. :)

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.
 
Why is it that peeps forget two things?? He was facing the man who accused him of abusing both his daughter and his grand daughter, a man who wanted him to lose his temper and was taunting him. JB was playing a trick with George because he asked him about gas cans from one event that were pictured in another event. He was also accusing George of putting his grand daughter in trash bags and dumping or arranging for her to be dumped down the street in a swamp, to be torn apart by scavengers.

The other point is that George was being very careful not to contradict his deposition because if he did - it was considered perjury.

Have a heart peeps - think about it! The DT took every possible advantage of who George is to fit in with their lies...er theories! :furious:

I don't like George or the way he has handled himself during this tragedy, but there is no evidence whatsoever he committed any crime that could have been included in this trial. OCA was found not guilty by this jury and the responsibility for it lies at their feet only.

my bold :blowkiss: I never forgot any of that, which is why I said "knowing what I knew".....I assume, which is all I can do, that were I a juror, with my ability to reason (dont laugh, I CAN REASON! :floorlaugh:), I would have still cut GA lots of slack for hostility. because exactly what you just said ...any man accused of the things JB accused him of would react in a bad and ugly manner.

I assumed that the jurors would also recognise this and cut GA some slack - enough to hear the rest of the evidence. they didnt. that's what staggers me. but I always wonder, had GA been both hostile AND truthful, maybe things would have been different. according to miss "I know my jury" singer, the answer is still no, so maybe, maybe not.
 
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