Nancy Grace Monday 12/8/2008

[zoey]

When I worked in a nursing home the residents always were the worst behaved when there was a full moon. I have noticed this with my sons as well.

I know with mom you could tell...even when she finally was getting the help she needed--(according to her she didn't--she was fine it was the rest of us....ahhhh denial --- ) for the dementia when I would call I would always hear: "well its a full moon--don't have to much time to tell you how she is---"

jmo

 

[JBean]

Months for a proper diagnosis is good. About 1/3 of Bipolar patients go 10 years misdiagnosed and improperly medicated.

This is so true and the worst part is the incorrect medication can often exacerbate the situation. I know in BP2 taking an antidepressant is one of the worst medication choices, and that is one of the first thing prescribed right out of the gate. Many anti-d's will send a BP patient into a manic state.

 

[tiredofthis]

This is so true and the worst part is the incorrect medication can often exacerbate the situation. I know in BP2 taking an antidepressant is one of the worst medication choices, and that is one of the first thing prescribed right out of the gate. Many anti-d's will send a BP patient into a manic state.

Very true.

 

[beaglebrd]

This is so true and the worst part is the incorrect medication can often exacerbate the situation. I know in BP2 taking an antidepressant is one of the worst medication choices, and that is one of the first thing prescribed right out of the gate. Many anti-d's will send a BP patient into a manic state.

Just thought I'd mention that a person can have hypomania and not be bipolar. Since KC never showed much depression that I've heard of, this would seem to fit better. I know someone who has hypomania...goes on huge spending sprees, lost his sobriety and was found naked in the street with some hookers...doesn't suffer from the depression associated with bipolar disorder.

http://www.depression-guide.com/hypomania.htm

 

[JBean]

Just thought I'd mention that a person can have hypomania and not be bipolar. Since KC never showed much depression that I've heard of, this would seem to fit better. I know someone who has hypomania...goes on huge spending sprees, lost his sobriety and was found naked in the street with some hookers...doesn't suffer from the depression associated with bipolar disorder.

http://www.depression-guide.com/hypomania.htm

that is very true. I guess I don't know if she was depressed, but then BP2's hide that very well.
The symptoms I see:
One side that is very charming and well liked.
Over the top anger and difficult to control. 10 reaction to a 1 episode.
Lashing out one minute and then charismatic and loving the next.
The inability to accept responsibility for anything and blame placing on the entire rest of the world.
I think she has been described many times a s a talker to the point that she won't shutup.

 

[21merc7]

that is very true. I guess I don't know if she was depressed, but then BP2's hide that very well.
The symptoms I see:
One side that is very charming and well liked.
Over the top anger and difficult to control. 10 reaction to a 1 episode.
Lashing out one minute and then charismatic and loving the next.
The inability to accept responsibility for anything and blame placing on the entire rest of the world.
I think she has been described many times a s a talker to the point that she won't shutup.

JBean I see what you are saying, but alcohol and/or drugs can make all of those symptoms happen.

 

[JBean]

JBean I see what you are saying, but alcohol and/or drugs can make all of those symptoms happen.

Bp-2 are notorious for self medicating by way of drugs and alcohol. So we can just keep chasing our tail here lol.

I have no idea what KC's psychological diagnosis would be and am not trying to pretend that I do. I am only offering that from what I have seen of KC's behavior and reports, she fits actually very nicely into the BP-2 category. But I am sure she fits into many categories and a diagnosis would be quite complex and based on more than transcripts and media releases.

 

[JBean]

We should move this conversation over here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69987&highlight=profile

sorry for going on

 

[Lyn1001]

Bi-Polar can present itself in so many different ways it's hard to say if someone has it unless you spend time with that person. I can see traits of BPD in Casey. I've had clients who have BPD who are the best liars you have ever met. They can make up the most elaborate, believable stories. The only problem is, there is no evidence to back the story up. But they will stick to that story and insist it's true. In regards to manic episodes, with one of my clients I didn't realize how manic she was until I saw her medicaited. It was amazing the difference.

Of course, I can also see traits of a lot of other disorders in Casey. There are a number of possibilities, but without an accurate history or spending face to face time with Casey, it's difficult to narrow the list down.

IMO, any psychological defense will only be used to explain her behaviors after Caylee went missing. After all, if they maintain that Casey is not the cause of Caylee going missing, why would they need to defend that? It would go towards her character and why she acts the way she acts. Now, they would have to be careful with using a personality disorder because that would most likely end up working against them. But using a mood disorder I can see being a valid (in their mind) character defense.

 

[Lyn1001]

We should move this conversation over here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69987&highlight=profile

sorry for going on

Sorry JBean, I was writing while you were posting.

 

[donnam]

Correct, it wouldn't be a defence for murder but could be used as explanation for her wild actions after Caylee went missing.

But, it won't explain why she didn't call police right away. Of course we all know the answer to that anyway.

 

[donnam]

Well I did mention on another thread that if it did happen then Casey very well could have thrown the child into the car - Casey is way stronger than Caylee - Caylee could have hit her head, stopped moving and when Casey realized it happened she might have taken a day or two to figure out what story she needs to come up with - and thats where the kidnapping story came from - THO I think when the car was abandoned it was set up to look like a kidnapping of her and Caylee and Caylee was the one who didn't survive

IMO the only reason she abandoned the car was because she couldn't get the decomp smell out and couldn't stomach it any longer.

 

[JBean]

Sorry JBean, I was writing while you were posting.

not a big deal at all.

 

[OneLostGrl]

- K, I am biting, because I love your knowledge. IF we're discussing this on the basis of the DP Lawyer using BP as a mitigating factor, then it would be a Mood disorder - correct?

I guess, in either case, you can't treat either type of disorder, just the symptoms?

Bipolar is a mood disorder, correct. It is an Axis I disorder and is considered a Clinical illness, there are medications to treat the illness, as you know.

"Psychopath" (Now refered to as "Antisocial personality disorder"), Borderline personality disorder, histronic personality disorder, Narcissistic personality disorder etc. are personality disorders. They are Axis II disorders and are not considered Clinical illnesses, there is no medication approved to treat these disorders.

Bipolar and several personality disorders are often misdiagnosed as one another as they appear to share several of the same traits such as impulsivity, unstable relationship patterns, "mood" swings and substance abuse. However, there are many more traits that are not shared. People with personality disorders consistantly have an ongoing disregard for others, deceitful behaviors.. all the while accusing others of attempting to deceivethem.

What is percieved by others as a mood swing in a person with a personality disorder is actually a swing of emotions. People who suffer from personality disorders don't have a very firm sense of self and are prone to emotional highs and lows. Many sufferers (not all) were abused, and often their behaviors are learned and began as a way to cope. The symptoms of personality disorders are enduring, inflexable, consistant and effect almost every aspect of the sufferers life beginning in childhood or early adulthood.

As I'm sure you are aware, with mood disorders such as Bipolar, that is not the case. Symptom presence and intensity change and often! Our symptoms are very much NOT consistant given our cycles (depression, mania, hypo-mania, mixed state, psychosis, rapid cycling etc.), time of year, outside influences, medication, lack of sleep, not eating properly, other medications we may take. Many of us even have periods of being "normal" between cycles without medication even.

The stuff I wrote in this post is my opinion but is also fact though it has been taken from my own knowledge.. However, if anyone does not believe the information listed, let me know because everything listed is truthful and I can find and provide links (other than Wikipedia LOL) that support everything I have stated in this post.

 

[trac]

IMO the only reason she abandoned the car was because she couldn't get the decomp smell out and couldn't stomach it any longer.

Could be but with everything pointing to her using Amy's checking account, driving her car, having her mail sent to the A's house, having Amy's resume with her belongings, stealing from Amy long before getting caught - when everything started to unravel she had to come up with something real quick - and escaping to CA as Amy I think was one of her plans

 

[Origrammi]

I don't know if anyone noticed but here is what Cindy said about the recent release of jail house visit tapes.

Cindy Anthony said she actually wished the jail videos were released earlier, saying that the tapes show her daughter Casey Anthony has emotions and is not the cold, calloused person everybody paints her out to be. Cindy says the tapes show Casey Anthony to be a desperate, loving mother. (From Matthew Zarrell, Nancy Grace Associate Producer)

Indeed? I think the tapes make Casey look amazingly cold in regard to her daughter, and very desperate regarding her own situation.

 

[essies]

Could be but with everything pointing to her using Amy's checking account, driving her car, having her mail sent to the A's house, having Amy's resume with her belongings, stealing from Amy long before getting caught - when everything started to unravel she had to come up with something real quick - and escaping to CA as Amy I think was one of her plans

Very interesting theory! She had plans, just ran out of time. If Cindy had given her "one more day", like she asked for-she would have gotten the H3LL out of Orlando. I wonder if any of the A's knew this Marine (her next victim) out in Cali? If they didn't and had no contact info-KC would have vanished and who knows if the A's would have ever seen her again!

 

[OneLostGrl]

Yes bipolar is a mood disorder, not a personality disorder.
I am in the minority here and I do think she displays charactersitics of BP2. It has a strong hereditary link and I think we can see that as well.
In the bipolar -2 I have to deal with in my family member the manic phase is manifested by over the top anger and the the low is a depression.
ETA:Actually the more I think about it tha more I see BP2 very clearly in her behavior. Not that it couldn't be a million and one other things, but I do see BP2

Casey absolutely shows some traits that some with Bipolar would show, I agree with you! I talked about that a long time ago, that I saw those same types of symptoms in her.. the partying, lack of morals sexually, choas, no job, several boyfriends at one time etc. But what is important to know is those are the only Bipolar-like symptoms she exhibits, making it impossible to meet the criteria for a diagnosis of any type of Bipolar disorder.

It's vital that people understand those same symptoms are also symptoms of several different personality disorders as well as addiction. The behaviors discussed do not only apply to Bipolar, as a matter of fact, many people with Bipolar never engage in those kinds of behaviors.
Though I think she may have smoked some weed, I don't see any other addiction like symptoms in Casey.

I do however see lots and lots of other personality disorder critera to add to her other behaviors. I don't know if you have noticed or not but every expert who has weighed in on this case (on TV and also here on WS, Thank you, Russell) concludes that Casey has a Axis II Personality disorder. Based on what I know about both Axis' I agree. But I do understand how at first glance and from far away, Casey's behaviors could be mistaken for Bipolar-like symptoms.. because personality disorders do share those same symptoms it is common for confusion, even Psychiatrists mistake it sometimes if they don't dig deep enough.

 

[indicat]

Casey absolutely shows some traits that some with Bipolar would show, I agree with you! I talked about that a long time ago, that I saw those same types of symptoms in her.. the partying, lack of morals sexually, choas, no job, several boyfriends at one time etc. But what is important to know is those are the only Bipolar-like symptoms she exhibits, making it impossible to meet the criteria for a diagnosis of any type of Bipolar disorder.

It's vital that people understand those same symptoms are also symptoms of several different personality disorders as well as addiction. The behaviors discussed do not only apply to Bipolar, as a matter of fact, many people with Bipolar never engage in those kinds of behaviors.
Though I think she may have smoked some weed, I don't see any other addiction like symptoms in Casey.

I do however see lots and lots of other personality disorder critera to add to her other behaviors. I don't know if you have noticed or not but every expert who has weighed in on this case (on TV and also here on WS, Thank you, Russell) concludes that Casey has a Axis II Personality disorder. Based on what I know about both Axis' I agree. But I do understand how at first glance and from far away, Casey's behaviors could be mistaken for Bipolar-like symptoms.. because personality disorders do share those same symptoms it is common for confusion, even Psychiatrists mistake it sometimes if they don't dig deep enough.

I think you are very knowledgeable and I agree with everything you have said on this subject. My sister is bipolar and has been diagnosed for about 6 years. While her behavior is all over the place at times there is such a difference between hers and that of KC. My sister's stories and such are not contrived, as are KC's, hence the big difference between personality and mental disorders. While I understand the similarities I also see the HUGE differences.

 

[JBean]

Casey absolutely shows some traits that some with Bipolar would show, I agree with you! I talked about that a long time ago, that I saw those same types of symptoms in her.. the partying, lack of morals sexually, choas, no job, several boyfriends at one time etc. But what is important to know is those are the only Bipolar-like symptoms she exhibits, making it impossible to meet the criteria for a diagnosis of any type of Bipolar disorder.

It's vital that people understand those same symptoms are also symptoms of several different personality disorders as well as addiction. The behaviors discussed do not only apply to Bipolar, as a matter of fact, many people with Bipolar never engage in those kinds of behaviors.
Though I think she may have smoked some weed, I don't see any other addiction like symptoms in Casey.

I do however see lots and lots of other personality disorder critera to add to her other behaviors. I don't know if you have noticed or not but every expert who has weighed in on this case (on TV and also here on WS, Thank you, Russell) concludes that Casey has a Axis II Personality disorder. Based on what I know about both Axis' I agree. But I do understand how at first glance and from far away, Casey's behaviors could be mistaken for Bipolar-like symptoms.. because personality disorders do share those same symptoms it is common for confusion, even Psychiatrists mistake it sometimes if they don't dig deep enough.

I don't disagree and I think I said as much. But I do see addictive behavior. Addicitive behavior doesn't necessarily mean substance abuse. In her case one could easily classify her many sexual partners and obsession with men as an addcitive behavior. It could be deduced that she gets a sense of well being when she partners different men and does it to her detriment. Classic addictive behavior. IMO she self medicates with alcohol and men. For that matter she takes her partying to a level that it is wholly inappropriate;ie, partying it up after she has possibly killed her daughter.
Again, while I believe her diagnosis would be much more complex, I do see all the traits of a BP disorder. Obviously,even experts cannot make the diagnosis without interviewing her and exploring all aspects of her behavior up close and personal.
Do not misunderstand, I think there is more going on than BP. but what I was addressing was some thinking that she does not display BP behavior because she absoultely does.