NC NC - Faith Hedgepeth, 19, UNC student, Chapel Hill, 7 Sept 2012 #1

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This is interesting - there was an arrest in the 1992 murder of Lisa Ziegert this week. In 2015 a composite based on DNA phenotyping was released, and the composite did resemble the perp.

You can see a side-by-side here:
http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Lisa_Ziegert

[Caveat: I'm sure there is nothing in the composite that disagrees with the DNA data, but I have to wonder - considering the guy was the original suspect - if detectives gave some direction to how the composite should look]

I found this awhile back I thought was interesting...http://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/news/tn-dpt-me-sudweeks-20170223-story.html

Just interesting.


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I'm with you (Raiders444) and Gone Girl: I think all of the circumstantial evidence points to KR. However the DNA evidence is a problem, and I'm not sure that either of you or anyone else has offered a plausible explanation for the DNA if KR was involved. And yet I still think the answer most likely lies with KR.
 
I'm with you (Raiders444) and Gone Girl: I think all of the circumstantial evidence points to KR. However the DNA evidence is a problem, and I'm not sure that either of you or anyone else has offered a plausible explanation for the DNA if KR was involved. And yet I still think the answer most likely lies with KR.
I'd argue again that IF one were going to rely on circumstantial evidence, Eric Jones seems far more suspect than KR, but I think we're all just focusing (naturally) on the paltry few names showing up in police documents, when there are are probably dozens, if not 100s, of connections to these ladies of whom we're completely unaware. Very sad that nothing new was released at the 5-yr. anniversary.
 
I'd argue again that IF one were going to rely on circumstantial evidence, Eric Jones seems far more suspect than KR, but I think we're all just focusing (naturally) on the paltry few names showing up in police documents, when there are are probably dozens, if not 100s, of connections to these ladies of whom we're completely unaware. Very sad that nothing new was released at the 5-yr. anniversary.

^^^ Yes, this. If we didn't know that he'd had his DNA tested and ruled out as a match, we'd all be continuing to talk about ETJ. He's the only one we know of who actually threatened to kill Faith, he had a restraining order, he had a history of violence against women, he asked for forgiveness for what he was about to do shortly before Faith died, he lived close enough to monitor comings and goings at the apartment, he had, in fact, broken into the apartment previously, etc.
 
I'm with you (Raiders444) and Gone Girl: I think all of the circumstantial evidence points to KR. However the DNA evidence is a problem, and I'm not sure that either of you or anyone else has offered a plausible explanation for the DNA if KR was involved. And yet I still think the answer most likely lies with KR.

I think you’re sort of half-right: Some circumstantial evidence points to KR at first blush. There is other circumstantial evidence that does not. For instance, she spent hours with Faith earlier in the evening and then went out to the club with her; if there was some incipient conflict between them, would they really have done that? Also, the two of them willingly left the club together to go home; it should go without saying, but if Karena had gone off on Faith and screamed “I’m gonna kick your face, b****!” like she supposedly did in the pocket-dial transcript, I doubt Faith would have given her a ride home 45 minutes later. She probably would have gone to stay with another friend.

Even some of the seemingly suspicious circumstantial evidence gets less so if you really look at it. Like her leaving the apartmentat 4:30 AM. A lot of people look at that and think she’s fleeing a crime scene. But if it looks like that to us, it obviously looked like that to LE too. She had to have told them her reasons for leaving, and LE would have checked her story out with JM and probably MR too (who presumably heard something about it on the way back to the apartment the next morning). The fact that LE knows all of that and still says that KR isn’t a suspect can tell us something.

I also don’t see why it follows that she knows more than she’s saying. Everyone that could have committed the crime that she has some obvious attachment to has been checked out, and I can’t see why she’d be denying justice for a good friend of hers for someone she only kind of knows. She’s not part of the mob or some gang with a “no snitch” culture, and we’ve been told over and over again that she’s been cooperative with the police.

I really think she’s a dead end.
 
Unless Parabon is falsifying its data, there is nothing that would allow investigator tips/biases to leak into the DNA composite. The composites are created by datamining gigantic publicly-available datasets where they use multivariate techniques like cluster analysis or principle components analysis to look at the (sometimes many) genes that govern certain traits. Now that they've discovered the gene-trait associations, the composites are generated based on the numbers, not based on an artist's representation. Eye color is a no-brainer, but many other physical attributes can be determined with some degree of certainty based on various genetic markers. Environment makes a difference, so the composites are not perfect (e.g., weight, amount of UV light exposure/premature aging, hairstyle/artificial hair color, etc.), but as a matter of course, the genes generate the profile without opportunity for someone to change it based on what a witness might say.

Here are some articles:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1712479/
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004224
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004725
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2016/07/forensic-science-justice-crime-evidence/
https://www.forensicmag.com/article/2012/08/forensic-phenotyping-21st-century-composite-sketch

Thanks - I kinda assumed that as a third party performing a scientific analysis that they wouldn't be influenced by detectives, I just couldn't believe that the hair and eyebrows of the composite matched the guy exactly!
 
I think you’re sort of half-right: Some circumstantial evidence points to KR at first blush. There is other circumstantial evidence that does not. For instance, she spent hours with Faith earlier in the evening and then went out to the club with her; if there was some incipient conflict between them, would they really have done that? Also, the two of them willingly left the club together to go home; it should go without saying, but if Karena had gone off on Faith and screamed “I’m gonna kick your face, b****!” like she supposedly did in the pocket-dial transcript, I doubt Faith would have given her a ride home 45 minutes later. She probably would have gone to stay with another friend.

Even some of the seemingly suspicious circumstantial evidence gets less so if you really look at it. Like her leaving the apartmentat 4:30 AM. A lot of people look at that and think she’s fleeing a crime scene. But if it looks like that to us, it obviously looked like that to LE too. She had to have told them her reasons for leaving, and LE would have checked her story out with JM and probably MR too (who presumably heard something about it on the way back to the apartment the next morning). The fact that LE knows all of that and still says that KR isn’t a suspect can tell us something.

I also don’t see why it follows that she knows more than she’s saying. Everyone that could have committed the crime that she has some obvious attachment to has been checked out, and I can’t see why she’d be denying justice for a good friend of hers for someone she only kind of knows. She’s not part of the mob or some gang with a “no snitch” culture, and we’ve been told over and over again that she’s been cooperative with the police.

I really think she’s a dead end.

When did LE ever say she isn't a suspect? They have not AFAIK. And in the 20/20 (or Dateline, can never keep those straight), they specifically do not rule her out.

Along with some others, I don't think the butt dial transcript is valid.

<modsnip>
 
When did LE ever say she isn't a suspect? They have not AFAIK. And in the 20/20 (or Dateline, can never keep those straight), they specifically do not rule her out.

<snipped>

...And her silence after the fact is deafening.

In the 20/20 segment, at the 30:13 minute mark, Ryan Smith states that law enforcement has specifically told their program that KR isn't a suspect.

As to her silence: She's been treated as a major suspect by the media in every recent story. None of Faith's other friends are subjected to that. The other actual suspects have been totally silent as well, so I don't think her silence should be looked as something sinister while theirs is just written off as a smart legal strategy. She at least has been freely talking to police without going through an attorney, something the other POI are apparently not willing to do.
 
Thanks - I kinda assumed that as a third party performing a scientific analysis that they wouldn't be influenced by detectives, I just couldn't believe that the hair and eyebrows of the composite matched the guy exactly!

This part I don't know for a fact, so take it as an educated guess from someone who knows a few things about multivariate stats, genomics, programming, and facial recognition: I would bet that they produce a range of images to account for features that can't be known by DNA, like hairstyle and facial hair (I would bet brow shape for men is predictable based on genetics, whereas women sometimes change the shape of their brows). My guess is that they then provide a set of composites to law enforcement.


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^^^ Yes, this. If we didn't know that he'd had his DNA tested and ruled out as a match, we'd all be continuing to talk about ETJ. He's the only one we know of who actually threatened to kill Faith, he had a restraining order, he had a history of violence against women, he asked for forgiveness for what he was about to do shortly before Faith died, he lived close enough to monitor comings and goings at the apartment, he had, in fact, broken into the apartment previously, etc.

He is truly one lucky guy because all of the circumstantial evidence could have easily been pinned on him if that DNA weren't there.
 
Just because an individual has not been specifically “ruled out” by LE does NOT give members licence to sleuth or discuss that individual in a negative light.

Excerpt from The Rules: Social Media – Facebook, Twitter, etc.

The "victim friendly" rule extends to the family members of victims and suspects. Sleuthing family members, friends, and others who have not been designated as suspects is not allowed. Don't make random accusations, suggest their involvement, nor bash and attack them. Posting their personal information, including names, addresses, and background data -- even if it is public -- is not allowed. That does not mean, however, that statements made by family members and other third parties cannot come into discussion as the facts of the case are reported in the media.
 


I keep reading of cases that took 10, 15, even 20 or more years to solve (and some of course are never solved)… and we’re only at the 5-year mark! Such a brutal crime scene; so much physical evidence; the police claiming over and over again that they are close, so very close… yet I have that sinking feeling we will be here a year from now just to see them emerge again and beg the public for more information. Sighhhh...
I don’t watch much TV but will be curious to see if the new upcoming show/drama, “Wisdom of the Crowd,” from CBS, on using crowdsourcing to solve crimes has any impact on how crimes get solved and how police utilize the public:
http://www.cbs.com/shows/wisdom-of-the-crowd/

 
As I've said previously, there are three basic possibilities if you think this crime was committed by the male whose DNA was found at the crime scene: (i) Faith knew this male; (ii) this male was a complete stranger; (iii) this male was on the periphery of Faith's social circle. The issue with one is that LE has seemingly swabbed all of these males, to no avail. The issue with two is: how and why is this stranger-male entering their second story apartment at 4:30am? The issue with three is the same as with two, but three is important because it might help explain why the police haven't swabbed the right male yet.

That said, I continue to feel that the most likely (male-perpetrator) scenario is one in which the crime was committed by a male (more or less unknown to Faith & KR) who lived in one of the apartments nearby and who had been watching the two girls for a period of time and had developed a fascination for them. As for why he entered the apartment that night, perhaps the two girls made a bit of noise as they were returning to the apartment from Thrill, perhaps their voices carried, alerting him to their presence or even awakening him. Later perhaps he heard or saw KR leave and, excited by the idea that Faith was alone, he decided to try to enter the apartment. This is the most plausible stranger-perpetrator account, in my opinion. I do not put any stock whatsoever in any theories that have a male from Thrill following the girls home. This simply is not believable.
 
This has bothered me for years. First, LE would not say whether or not Faith was raped. Why not? The autopsy report says nothing about rape.

Then finally, LE stated that semen was found ON her body and also on the pen and biscuit bag. They say it's the killer's DNA. How do they know this? They say "it's more likely than not" that she was sexually assaulted. So they're not sure she was raped, the semen was ON HER BODY, but they know the DNA is the killer's? Since they're so unsure of things, how are they reaching such conckusions?

I really hate being this graphic, but they've never said that she was in fact raped, and if she was, with what. I keep thinking she may have been assaulted with an object rather than a man's penis (again, sorry to be so graphic in depicting such images), such as the rum bottle.

But why is the semen ON Faith's body? It doesn't make sense if there was penile rape by a man. There is something about that statement's wording that makes me think it's very significant.

Does anyone else get my point about the "on her body" statement being strange?

I have believed for years that LE was competent but just couldn't get the evidence to assure a conviction. But I believe now that they screwed up their investigation; they got hoodwinked somehow. I hope I'm wrong.
 
As I've said previously, there are three basic possibilities if you think this crime was committed by the male whose DNA was found at the crime scene: (i) Faith knew this male; (ii) this male was a complete stranger; (iii) this male was on the periphery of Faith's social circle. The issue with one is that LE has seemingly swabbed all of these males, to no avail. The issue with two is: how and why is this stranger-male entering their second story apartment at 4:30am? The issue with three is the same as with two, but three is important because it might help explain why the police haven't swabbed the right male yet.

That said, I continue to feel that the most likely (male-perpetrator) scenario is one in which the crime was committed by a male (more or less unknown to Faith & KR) who lived in one of the apartments nearby and who had been watching the two girls for a period of time and had developed a fascination for them. As for why he entered the apartment that night, perhaps the two girls made a bit of noise as they were returning to the apartment from Thrill, perhaps their voices carried, alerting him to their presence or even awakening him. Later perhaps he heard or saw KR leave and, excited by the idea that Faith was alone, he decided to try to enter the apartment. This is the most plausible stranger-perpetrator account, in my opinion. I do not put any stock whatsoever in any theories that have a male from Thrill following the girls home. This simply is not believable.

As I understand it, ALL the males who either lived or worked at the apt. complex (as well as 100s of others) have been interviewed, DNA tested and RULED OUT as a match. I don't understand your dismissiveness of the Thrill population -- this is a pretty common crime scenario: girl meets guy at rowdy bar, doesn't respond to a come-on and is stalked or otherwise victimized by same male later. I find it an odd coincidence that just hours after visiting the Thrill and being exposed to perhaps 100+ guys/strangers? one of the girls is found dead (though there are plenty of other plausible scenarios, including scenarios where FH was not a specific or intended target).
As to Boodles question about the semen left ON the victim, I don't find that at all hard to explain, but don't want to be so graphic as to discuss it here. I'll just say that I think Faith struggled mightily (which is why they resorted to head-bashing her) and there may have been 2 perps involved (though the number isn't necessary to explaining the semen).
 
I don't think someone following them from the Thrill is beyond the realms of believability, though the idea does have its problems (as pretty much all of them do).

I do think the stalker neighbor theory makes sense, though there's only 2 or maybe 3 buildings this person could have lived in. As Webthrush mentioned, all the males in the complex were swabbed with negative results, though it's been said that some people moved out of the complex before that happened. But I have a hard time believing that LE would have just let it go at that, if they heard there was a young male near Faith who moved out a few weeks after she died.


As to the semen ON her, and her being raped or not- the wording is quite deliberate, I think. I'm wondering if maybe there wasn't strong evidence of insertion at all, but because of the totality of the circumstances, they think it did happen? Just a guess.
 
Disclaimer: I am eight months pregnant and forgetful.
JMO and IIRC...ALL the males in the complex were not swabbed in the apartment complex. Source is a news article. A neighbor from the apartment complex states from the get go not all men were swabbed. LE were treating it as an open and shut case of DV early on...IIRC LE came back to the complex months later to get swabs at which time many people made moved out by then.
I am trying to find my news link to prove. I know I have attached it before in previous posts.


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I'm curious why more people don't assume LE could not have swabbed everyone Faith knew or came in contact with. I can promise you if this had happened to me in college, LE would NEVER be able to say they contacted every man I knew. People keep secrets. Even now there are people I have contact with that no one close to me knows about. This could be the case here. I'm not talking about strangers. I'm talking person or people known to Faith and possibly her circle.
 
Disclaimer: I am eight months pregnant and forgetful.
JMO and IIRC...ALL the males in the complex were not swabbed in the apartment complex. Source is a news article. A neighbor from the apartment complex states from the get go not all men were swabbed. LE were treating it as an open and shut case of DV early on...IIRC LE came back to the complex months later to get swabs at which time many people made moved out by then.
I am trying to find my news link to prove. I know I have attached it before in previous posts.


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My recollection is that by the ~2-year mark police had tracked down and DNA-tested all males who worked with FH or lived at her complex at the time of the crime (as well as all who had close contact with her on campus or in her hometown) — still leaves many males outside those circles — and again I’d like to know how many males from the Thrill were tested versus how many males visited the Thrill during the girls’ ~90-min. stay there.
Anyway, this is why the police need to release some sort of official FAQ sheet on this crime, of what is definitely known, what is mere speculation, and what is unknown in this case — after 5 years, established police facts, versus news reports, versus sheer hearsay are beginning to blur for many of us. :(
 
There are a number of reasons to think the Thrill-guy-follows-them-home-and-stalks theory is implausible. One, they left Thrill around 2:15am. So this club-going guy follows them home in his car, waits outside for two hours watching and then decides to go in when (to his good fortune) KR leaves at 4:30am, leaving Faith alone and the door unlocked? No, that just isn't believable.

Two, guys who go to clubs to pick up girls may be untrustworthy in any number of ways, but they are not the psychological type who enters apartments uninvited at 4:30am. That psychological type doesn't even go to clubs, has an inferiority or rejection complex, etc. The club-going type would just plan on seeing these girls / this girl another night. Alternately, if you have him knocking on the door and being let in by Faith, how did he know her apartment number? He followed them home & waited for two hours? No, not believable. She gave it to him at the club? No, also not believable. She would've given him her phone number, not her apartment number.

For anyone who believes in the Thrill-guy-follows-them-home theory, please present us with a plausible step-by-step account of how this guy gets from seeing Faith & KR at Thrill to murdering Faith with a rum bottle. I would like to see this laid out (step-by-step) in a bit more detail. IMO, it just isn't plausible.
 
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