NC - MacDonald family murders at Fort Bragg, 1970 - Jeffrey MacDonald innocent?

[stinkerbelle]

Great to see you here, stinker! And I love the little tag line under your name ("I *heart* the Little Viper")! Spamela wants to have his baby, you "*heart*" him and I'm about ready to clear out a room or two so I can build a shrine to him. I'm laughing; I guess McGinnis and Murtagh don't realize how many of us women worship the ground the Little Viper walks on, eh? LOL!!

you have to admire someone who has dedicated a large portion of his career to people he did not even know, eh?

 

[Bunny]

Bunny, Rash JTF

Thank you for all your posts and taking on that arrognant, pompous
so much smarter than than you even though I am unaware of the
most incrimmating facts of this case and likely any other .

Hey there, sharpar --

To me, when it comes to posting, what matters is a willingness to discuss the evidence in an intelligent way and, hopefully, to learn something from that. Level of knowledge is secondary. Even the most knowledgable people had to start at square one, learning about the evidence, the psych reports, the things MacDonald said and did over the years, the court decisions, etc. And in this case, seems like there are still new things to learn all the time! Unfortunately, now and then there are people who try to fool others into thinking they "know the case" when the truth is they've only read the murderer's website, or read Fatal Justice or newspaper or magazine articles, and for whatever reason, they are closed-minded when it comes to learning the real facts and insist on continually posting things that people who have actually studied the records know not to be true. A difference of opinion is one thing, but lies are something else entirely, and shouldn't be allowed to stand unanswered. JMPO.

To that end, I'm looking forward to reading your posts and the posts of others here, and have no doubt that I will learn some new things from all of you along the way.

 

[sharpar]

I agree - after all Jeffie just cant resist any chance to insert foot . LOL

Christine's site is amazing wealth of information. Visit quite often to refresh my memory .

 

[rashomon]

Hi rashomon. Nice to meet you. I agree that both of those books are fantastic and two of my favorites. Not pleasant in the subject matter, but well written and give the reader lots of insight into both Manson and MacD.

I started out with Manson and then MacD and did compare the two as you have. It's not just the crime that draws me in, it's the whole picture - their upbringing, way of life, etc., and these two differ in just about every aspect.

Manson never really stood a chance in life. He was unwanted, shuffled around, and chose a life of crime at a very young age. MacD, on the other hand, as you said, was seemingly brilliant in just about every aspect of his life. However, I think both Manson and MacD were controllers. They needed to be in control of everything. With Manson, it was the control over his followers - he controlled everything they did - from what they ate and thought down to their sex lives. With MacD, it was his control over Collette. When she discussed their home issues with her professor at her class the night she was killed, then came home and told MacD what the professor said, I can only imagine how ticked he was. I believe that put him in a fit of rage that ended in her death.

Jules - good point about both Manson and MacDonald being controllers. Didn't Manson once say he even knew what the mice were doing (or even thinking?) at Spahn Ranch? Chilling.
As for MacD, Christina M. who runs the Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site says that even today he micro-manges everything from prison (though it seems that lately he turned over some of that management to his wife Kathryn). "Mom, don't ever say anything to Jeff because he can't stand criticism", Colette once told her mother. One can imagine what life with such a partner must have been like for poor Colette.
And I think this was exactly what triggered JMD's rage on that fatal night: Colette standing up to him (maybe for the first time in her life) and his controlling ways. Voicing an own dissenting opinion when discussing her child psychology class with Jeff. Refusing later to change the wet sheet in the middle of the night. Telling him she'd had it with him and was going with the kids to her parents for some time to think things over. Hitting back when he pushed and shoved her. He couldn't take that and flew into a boundless rage.

 

[Bunny]

Couldn't resist posting this, from the New Uploads at TJMIS:

March 2, 1983: Memorandum from Ray Shedlick re: Ernie Davis and Helena Stoeckley
http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/html/memo_shedlick_1983-03-02.html

Per Shedlick, re: what Ernest Davis allegedly told him about Stoeckley (emphasis added):

p. 1: "Helena told him that she was at the MacDonald house two times previous to the homicide. The first time Mrs. MacDonald and Dr. MacDonald were present and they discussed her babysitting. The second time Dr. MacDonald was alone. They both got high and had sexual intercoarse [sic]. Mr. Davis was asked how Helena met Dr. MacDonald and he answered that Helena's father was a Third Colonel, which gave her access to the Officers Club. Also, Helena loved the army, did guard duty occasionally with military personnel, and was always on the base."

LOL!!! So Mac got high with Stoeckley and had sex with her...OMG, I'll bet ol' Mac's just cringing...LOL!!!!!

 

[stinkerbelle]

Couldn't resist posting this, from the New Uploads at TJMIS:

March 2, 1983: Memorandum from Ray Shedlick re: Ernie Davis and Helena Stoeckley
http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/html/memo_shedlick_1983-03-02.html

Per Shedlick, re: what Ernest Davis allegedly told him about Stoeckley (emphasis added):

p. 1: "Helena told him that she was at the MacDonald house two times previous to the homicide. The first time Mrs. MacDonald and Dr. MacDonald were present and they discussed her babysitting. The second time Dr. MacDonald was alone. They both got high and had sexual intercoarse [sic]. Mr. Davis was asked how Helena met Dr. MacDonald and he answered that Helena's father was a Third Colonel, which gave her access to the Officers Club. Also, Helena loved the army, did guard duty occasionally with military personnel, and was always on the base."

LOL!!! So Mac got high with Stoeckley and had sex with her...OMG, I'll bet ol' Mac's just cringing...LOL!!!!!

*snort*

 

[JTF]

The 1986 document regarding a meeting between Dr. Noguchi and members of the MacDonald camp is another priceless part of Christina's New Uploads:

1) Noguchi states that the first blow to Colette's head was to the upper portion of her skull. Noguchi clearly ignores the blood spatter patterns in the master bedroom for the spatter on the ceiling indicates that the blow to Colette's skull occurred as she lay motionless on the master bedroom floor. Noguchi probably selected that blow first in order to keep with the MacDonald camp's argument that Colette was first assaulted by a left-handed individual.

2) Noguchi ignores the 8-10 knife wounds in Kimberly's neck for the same reason. The knife wounds were inflicted by a right-handed individual.

3) Noguchi states that Kristen was killed by 2 assailants, but not a shred of evidence is offered as proof of this claim. Noguchi further undermines his credibility by stating there is no evidence that the club was placed on Kristen's bed or on her floor. Paul Stombaugh testified at the Grand Jury hearings that blood patterns on Kristen's bedspread indicated that the club may have been placed on top of Kristen's bed.

4) Noguchi states that the blood-typing in this case should be disregarded, but provides no rationale for that statement. I'm assuming that little tidbit was due to the fact that the blood evidence was entered in at the 1979 trial without objection.

Similar to Dr. Lee in the Simpson case, Noguchi's work in the MacDonald case proves that high profile cases can make shills of even the most competent of scientists. Freddy Kassab wrote Noguchi a letter in 1987, blasting him for his selective analysis of the forensics in this case.

JTF.

 

[rashomon]

Couldn't resist posting this, from the New Uploads at TJMIS:

March 2, 1983: Memorandum from Ray Shedlick re: Ernie Davis and Helena Stoeckley
http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/html/memo_shedlick_1983-03-02.html

Per Shedlick, re: what Ernest Davis allegedly told him about Stoeckley (emphasis added):

p. 1: "Helena told him that she was at the MacDonald house two times previous to the homicide. The first time Mrs. MacDonald and Dr. MacDonald were present and they discussed her babysitting. The second time Dr. MacDonald was alone. They both got high and had sexual intercoarse [sic]. Mr. Davis was asked how Helena met Dr. MacDonald and he answered that Helena's father was a Third Colonel, which gave her access to the Officers Club. Also, Helena loved the army, did guard duty occasionally with military personnel, and was always on the base."

LOL!!! So Mac got high with Stoeckley and had sex with her...OMG, I'll bet ol' Mac's just cringing...LOL!!!!!

ROFL!!! And think of how his wife Kathryn must be just cringing too, teehee!
I also love the little inter'coarse' typo, lol!

Thanks for a good laugh Bunny, by posting that - priceless!

 

[rashomon]

Similar to Dr. Lee in the Simpson case, Noguchi's work in the MacDonald case proves that high profile cases can make shills of even the most competent of scientists. Freddy Kassab wrote Noguchi a letter in 1987, blasting him for his selective analysis of the forensics in this case.
JTF.

Strange and baffling phenomenon, isn't it? World-renowned scientists or criminal profilers uttering such nonsense in public. It obviously happens quite often: In the crime case I'm currently reading about, the world-famous profiler John Douglas based his profiling solely on the information he had gotten from the defense team! Just like Cyril Wecht did in the MacDonald case. But surely these renowned profilers and doctors must know that the result of such a biased and one-sided approach is totally worthless? Don't these people have a reputation to lose?
The only explanation I have is that these famous experts think so much of themselves that they see themselves above reproach, and believe the public will absorb every word which comes from their mouth as gospel, even if it is total crap.

 

[JTF]

Rashomon: Speaking of nonsense, have you read the 30+ pages of innuendo, distortions, and lies put forth by Ray Shedlick in the New Uploads section? Jeffrey Elliott obviously relied on this investigative hack for information to present to Freddy Kassab and Kassab immediately saw right through Elliott's ruse. I love Kassab's reference to Shedlick's experience as a detective as consisting of being a traffic cop and chasing prostitutes. It's clear from Shedlick's investigative work that he couldn't have shined Peter Kearns' shoes.

JTF.

 

[cami]

Wrong: The group O blood drops and the hairs, which were brown
(McDonald was blond) were not disclosed to the defense. And the affidavit alleging witness coercion is pure fact. It is not going away.

Moreover, rather than just let Helena Stockley tell her story on the witness stand, Blackburn told her that she would be indicted for murder if she did so, which was, obviously, yet another major incident of evidence suppression and witness coercion by Blackburn.

You're not serious are you? I see your research and reading all the transcripts stopped at Fatal Justice. Mac had the type of blonde hair that turned dark in winter.

What do you see in this photo? uh dark hair?

 

[cami]

This is not breaking news. The prosecution kept hidden from the defense all knowledge of hairs under the daughter's fingernails and/or in her hand(s) that were not a match to Jeffrey MacDonald. They also hid the presence of blood spots, group O, that were found at the scene and on the hand of Colette.

Greg Micthell, Helen Stokley's boyfriend, is blood type O. Additionally, a State witness has gone on record, via an affidavit, to say that they suffered intimidation (witness coercion) at the hands of the prosecutor.

For comparison purposes, at the murder scene of Marilyn Sheppard, the coroner, Dr. Sam Gerber, found a half dozen or so blood drops on the stairway. These blood drops did not come from either Marilyn (blood group O with a unique M factor) or from Dr. Sheppard (blood group A). Moreover, since Dr. Sheppard did not have a nick or cut on his entire body, then clearly these blood drops did not come from him and, thus, can readily be inferred to have been left by the murderer -- years later, Richard Eberling admitted that it was his blood.

Notwithstanding the exonerating blood drop evidence, which was presented by the defense in Dr. Sheppard's first trial, the jury simply ignored it and found him guilty -- basically, all of Cleveland had Dr. Sheppard convicted prior to the trial. However, ten years later, Dr. Sheppard was acquitted in a retrial and released from prison.

Still, at least the defense in the Sheppard case knew about the exonerating blood drop evidence. But not so in MacDonald's case.

In my mind's eye, the Sheppard case and the MacDonald case have a lot in common.

Your snide comment notwithstanding....please stop comparing MacDonald with Sheppard. The courts, the SC has reaffirmed MacDonald's conviction. Are you a SC justice by any chance that you disagree with their findings? Do you disagree with the appeals courts that have found no suppression of evidence by the prosecution?

And once again, Kristen Macdonald had type O blood. Kristen Macdonald bled to death in her own bed. Colette Macdonald, her mother, was in her bed on the night she died, evidenced by the huge amount of her Type A blood found there. Logic tells me that Kris MacDonald's type O blood was transferred to her mother, Colette Macdonald at that time.

No evidence that Greg Mitchell was ever in the Macdonald apt committing murder. None of his hair was found there, none of his blood was found there, none of his fingerprints were found there, none of his footprints were found there, nothing, zip, nada was ever found that indicates anyone other than Jeffrey R. Macdonald committed these murders.

No, he was not a state witness and he was not intimated...you have your facts mixed up with Sheppard maybe.

 

[cami]

Unless a person is a cauldron stirrer or thinks they are omnipotent, "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" is always the key issue. And the majority of Americans do not qualify to guage it, because few understand it, such as someone advocating the use of "to a moral certainty" -- another good reason for why we need professional jurors.

All you can say about this case -- or most any circumstantial evidence murder case based on weak evidence -- is MacDonald might have committed the murders, or MacDonald might not have committed the murders.

I assess evidence against the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, nothing more. Unlike others, I do not pretend to be God.

No, unlike us who have studied the documents, the trial transcripts particularly, you are out of your league......you pretend you know this case but you don't so you have to insult those of us who do know it and know that the evidence presented in this case was not weak, it was overwhelming and pointed to the guilt of just one defendant...Jeffrey R. MacDonald.

 

[cami]

Just for you luv. You know that if I do not answer a question, I am probably trying to be nice. And you did delete my post wherein I stated I did not want to argue over 25 year old mouse farts

Moving on, you simply cannot validly reason from the inherent unreliability of forensic evidence that was obtained from a totally unprotected crime scene.

That MacDonald's hair might have been found anywhere is certainly not surprising. Obviously, there would have been many of his hairs throughout and present in every nook and cranny of their residence. But most telling was the (in my mind) absolutely extraordinary testimony of the Doctor who was called to the murder scene before the massive amounts of blood had coagulated.

His name, if my memory serves me well (and I think it still does), was Dr. Neal; an admitted amateur to crime scenes as I recall.

He testified that, before his arrival or upon his departure, there were not even fundamental body position lines drawn around the bodies. He trestified that he rolled and otherwise significantly moved all of the the bodies (including moving Colette's hand and arms to roll her body) without even thinking about what their original position was. He also testified that he removed their clothing and went from body to body without washing his hands or otherwise protecting the bodies from transference contamination, etc., etc., etc.. In other words, crime scene contamination was virtually assurred based on his actions alone.

I do not have the transcripts available to me, and I do not know if they can be found on the web. But his testimony was so extraordinarily honest, that I remember re-reading it over and over and over and then setting the transcripts down, shaking my head.

Hence, the forensic evidence simply cannot be deemed to be reliable, and thus, valid and reliable conclusions are not possible. It is as simple as that. To do so would represent putting lipstick on the proverbial pig.

As for the alleged "cuff" evidence, where one witness saw an alleged cuff imprint, other witnesses did not agree. A difference of opinions, geez, imagine that.

Neting it all out, the case was and remains but fool's gold, and reasonable doubt was and remains more than plentiful.

(snicker)

 

[JTF]

Cami: You've got to read Ray Shedlick's, I mean, Jeffrey Elliott's 30+ questions sent to Freddy Kassab in 1985. That document is part of the New Uploads posted on Christina's site. Wow, that document demonstrates what a waste of investigative space Shedlick was, yet Bost and Potter made Shedlick seem like the master detective. All of Shedlick's pathetic machinations are in that document which include his infamous gurney theory and his reliance on Edward's bizarre affidavit. Shedlick even includes some arguments which demonstrate how far Shedlick would go to paint his client as a tortured innocent. Examples include his contention that the CID never proved that MacDonald actually had intercourse with another woman prior to Colette's death and that an unnamed MP placed the Hilton Hotel bathmat on Colette's body. Shedlick was a piece of work.

JTF.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Well I'd like to thank you all for allowing this thread to go so deep into the toilet that its beyond reach. Discussion is now over. Any further attempts to begin this on another thread will result in a time out.

 

[Atomic]

Not sure where to put this, but Im sure everyone is pretty familiar with this case?

Fort Bragg, N.C. — Crews will spend Saturday demolishing a Fort Bragg duplex where the gruesome murders of a pregnant woman and her two daughters occurred nearly four decades ago.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2580647/

I live five minutes away, and I had no idea that house was still standing after 28 years! Or that people have been living there. Im tempted to go gawk and maybe snap a pic but Im not pulling any mess on base.
So they are building another big neighbor center there, huge indoor pools, tennis courts. I hope they dont build directly on top of it.

 

[Taximom]

Aw, shoot. I was going to urge you to go gawk and take a pic! Then I saw "on base". Nope. Stay away or you'll be in Guantanamo (oops sp) before you know it.

I wonder what MacDonald thinks. Ick. He has always given me the creeps.

 

[hipmamajen]

Thanks for letting us know, I haven't thought about that case in a while.

Yeah, he creeps me out, too. I want to believe that he didn't hurt his family, and some of the evidence of the "hippies" in the area seems compelling, but then there's something so cold and arrogant about him in interviews. Maybe he's innocent, but just a big conceited jerk? I hope so, but I don't know for sure.

That has nothing to do with the house being torn down. I wonder if the folks living in it have known about the home's history?

 

[deanws]

I think he is guilty!