NC - MacDonald family murders at Fort Bragg, 1970 - Jeffrey MacDonald innocent?

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I recorded this and just finished watching. Nothing in this changed my mind at all. It was just a reminder of why he was convicted. Even Error Morris said he thinks MacDonald is innocent, but admits he isn't sure. 12 jurors and everyone I know that has actually researched this case is quite sure he did it.
I think that at the end of the series, Errol Morris was forced to see that some of the points he tried to make with his book were faulty. What did he say, something like, "A mark of intelligence is being willing to admit you *advertiser censored*ked up." Then he shrugged and said "I dunno" when asked if he thought MacDonald was innocent. I enjoyed the series very much!
 
I don’t think that’s actually accurate. DNA testing found that three hairs couldn’t be linked to him or his family or the two people who later claimed they had been there that night.

However, I assume people came to their house and it seems investigators and other LE were all over that house. Kind of hard to track all those people down and eliminate them.

And no DNA belonging to others was found, as far as I know, on any of the bodies or in the form of blood.
There was the recent DNA testing of a hair in Colette's hand. The MacDonald defense howled that this hair would be of the "real killer." Well, they did a DNA test on that hair that was in blood with a splinter from the wooden stick used to kill Colette...and it WAS of the real killer. It was an arm hair from Jeff himself! Oops!
 
from the link:

Prior to the series premiere, Smerling will also launch a companion podcast, "Morally (In)Defensible," with Sony Music Entertainment. The podcast follows the story of journalist Joe McGinniss in the writing of his smash best seller "Fatal Vision," also about the MacDonald murders.
I listened to that podcast a couple of days ago and I thought it was great!
 
You were correct when you said Kimberly wet the bed. MacDonald claimed, and still claims, it was Kristin, but it has been proven the urine in the bed cane from Kimberly (different blood types). Why would he lie about it? For some reason he didn’t want Kimberly to be in the master bedroom, but brain serum on the wall and door frame, from the vicious head wound, proves she was there. I’ve read a number of theories, including child abuse.

While we should always be careful throwing accusations of child abuse around, I have read snippets that some have suspected it. Bedwetting in an older child *can* be a symptom that not all is well in the family...from fighting to outright abuse. And I copied this a while back (I copy & paste interesting tidbits from the internet on this case & save them in a Word document). IIRC I got it from one of the documents on www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com :
MacDonald couldn’t flee because he saw himself as the “ Golden Boy”, the best, and he had to maintain that image. His narcissism would not allow him to leave, and IMO, keeps him from admitting the truth. It will probably also keep him from receiving a parole, because to receive a parole he must admit the crime and show remorse!

By the way, all the “50 year” articles contain errors, inaccuracies, and/or mis-statements.
You were correct when you said Kimberly wet the bed. MacDonald claimed, and still claims, it was Kristin, but it has been proven the urine in the bed cane from Kimberly (different blood types). Why would he lie about it? For some reason he didn’t want Kimberly to be in the master bedroom, but brain serum on the wall and door frame, from the vicious head wound, proves she was there. I’ve read a number of theories, including child abuse.

MacDonald couldn’t flee because he saw himself as the “ Golden Boy”, the best, and he had to maintain that image. His narcissism would not allow him to leave, and IMO, keeps him from admitting the truth. It will probably also keep him from receiving a parole, because to receive a parole he must admit the crime and show remorse!

By the way, all the “50 year” articles contain errors, inaccuracies, and/or mis-statements.
You were correct when you said Kimberly wet the bed. MacDonald claimed, and still claims, it was Kristin, but it has been proven the urine in the bed cane from Kimberly (different blood types). Why would he lie about it? For some reason he didn’t want Kimberly to be in the master bedroom, but brain serum on the wall and door frame, from the vicious head wound, proves she was there. I’ve read a number of theories, including child abuse.

MacDonald couldn’t flee because he saw himself as the “ Golden Boy”, the best, and he had to maintain that image. His narcissism would not allow him to leave, and IMO, keeps him from admitting the truth. It will probably also keep him from receiving a parole, because to receive a parole he must admit the crime and show remorse!

By the way, all the “50 year” articles contain errors, inaccuracies, and/or mis-statements.

While we should always be careful throwing accusations of child abuse around, I have read snippets that some have suspected it. Bedwetting in an older child can be a symptom that not all is well in the family...from fighting to outright abuse. For what it's worth (and it may just be worth a grain of salt), I copied this a while back (I copy & paste interesting tidbits from the internet on this case & save them in a Word document). IIRC I got it from one of the documents on www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com

"Jeffrey MacDonald had appeared before the parole board in 2005 where Colette's brother, Bob Stevenson, sat five feet away from MacDonald & his wife and gave his full opinion on why the man should never see the light of day, including the belief he shared with his late stepfather, Freddy Kassab, that Colette had interrupted MacDonald in the act of molesting Kimberley. MacDonald was visibly shaken by the accusation."

We will never know what really happened in that home behind closed doors nor will we ever know the complete truth of what happened that terrible night...because Jeff will never tell. All we can do is remember those precious girls & a little boy who wanted so much to be part of our world. And we will never forget a brave mother who - despite grave injuries - found the strength to throw herself over her youngest daughter's body in an effort to save her. I can hardly keep from crying when I think of her.
 
He has believed his fiction for decades now. For in-depth analysis, read Fatal Vision. Interestingly, this book was rebutted and then this rebuttal was rebutted, but I don't recall the titles.

You can buy Joe McGinness' book "Final Vision: The Last Word on Jeffrey MacDonald" and get his final insights, thoughts, rebuttals, etc., on the case that caused him a lot of pain. I got it on Kindle. I don't know if it is available in hardcover. He talks about the civil case and addresses other books that have tried to stir controversy and try to convince the public that Jeff is (cough) innocent. I enjoyed reading it. RIP Joe! I also recommend the podcast "Morally Indefensible" which is the companion to "The Wilderness of Error." I never listened to a podcast before and this was a wonderful way to start listening to them.
 
from the link:

Prior to the series premiere, Smerling will also launch a companion podcast, "Morally (In)Defensible," with Sony Music Entertainment. The podcast follows the story of journalist Joe McGinniss in the writing of his smash best seller "Fatal Vision," also about the MacDonald murders.

Thanks, I'll have to listen. "Fatal Vision" was one of the first, and best, true crime books I've ever read. It stands the test of time. You can read it again 20 years later and its still as compelling as the first time. What an experience that must have been to begin working with MacDonald on a book to exonerate him, then gradually realizing he's guilty.
 
You can buy Joe McGinness' book "Final Vision: The Last Word on Jeffrey MacDonald" and get his final insights, thoughts, rebuttals, etc., on the case that caused him a lot of pain. I got it on Kindle. I don't know if it is available in hardcover. He talks about the civil case and addresses other books that have tried to stir controversy and try to convince the public that Jeff is (cough) innocent. I enjoyed reading it. RIP Joe! I also recommend the podcast "Morally Indefensible" which is the companion to "The Wilderness of Error." I never listened to a podcast before and this was a wonderful way to start listening to them.

Welcome to the site, MyCat. I listened to Morally Indefensible awhile ago and don't remember much about it. I'll have to give it another go.
There is a treasure chest full of quality true crime podcasts out there. My favorite is Welcome to Casefile: True Crime Podcast. It is from Australia, but they cover cases from all over the place.
 
Some lingering questions that may never be answered:

1.) If Helena Stockley was so spaced-out and unreliable in this case, as the court ruled in MacDonald's trial, why was she used as a credible drug informant by LE?

2.) It always interested me that Greg Mitchell knew so much about the case, and him writing "I killed MacDonald's wife and children" on that farm house wall always haunted me. Can you imagine studying the case and you walk in and see that?

3.) Is it at all possible that the government COULD have thrown away or covered up evidence the might have proved MacDonald's innocence?

4.) What exactly did Jimmy Frier hear that night when the operator rang Jeff MacDonald's house instead of his own psychiatrist, another doctor, named Richard MacDonald? For years, when I was not sure of MacDonald's guilt, I said "Get those phone records!" I remember years ago, when I heard Friar's account, and wanted more answers about the case, I almost fell off my chair, thinking that, "If Friar is telling the truth and we get those phone records, and Helena answered the phone" could MacDonald be telling the truth about that night and he was indeed unconscious during that phone conversation?

However, all of this does not change the blood evidence that showed MacDonald as the killer. Unless there was a #3 that will never be known.

Satch
Hi brand new to this discussion. I just am watching A Wilderness of Error.

I've always thought MacDonald guilty because of many things...the blood, fibers, MacDonald's lack of injuries, how and where the weapons were found and Colette wanting to move in with her Mom with the kids not long before the murders. (all of those discussed in the Hulu aired series "A Wilderness of Error").

One thing I can't find confirmation on is Jimmy Friar's misdirected phone call to the MacDonald house the night of the murders.

Did phone records confirm this call supposedly connected by a base operator? Was that testified to really happening? Did Friar testify a woman (supposedly Helena Stoeckley) answering and giggling, some yelling "Hang up the phone" at the approximate time of the murders in a court of law?

Sorry if this has been discussed/answered before and thanks if you can help.
 
Hi brand new to this discussion. I just am watching A Wilderness of Error.

I've always thought MacDonald guilty because of many things...the blood, fibers, MacDonald's lack of injuries, how and where the weapons were found and Colette wanting to move in with her Mom with the kids not long before the murders. (all of those discussed in the Hulu aired series "A Wilderness of Error").

One thing I can't find confirmation on is Jimmy Friar's misdirected phone call to the MacDonald house the night of the murders.

Did phone records confirm this call supposedly connected by a base operator? Was that testified to really happening? Did Friar testify a woman (supposedly Helena Stoeckley) answering and giggling, some yelling "Hang up the phone" at the approximate time of the murders in a court of law?

Sorry if this has been discussed/answered before and thanks if you can help.
I'm extremely troubled by the state's repeated refusals to allow DNA testing of certain items at the scene and by numerous Brady violations that certainly seemed to have occurred. It was a shoddy investigation, imo. Key evidence was conveniently lost by LE. I don't believe he received a fair trial, and I don't think he's guilty. AMOO
 
I'm extremely troubled by the state's repeated refusals to allow DNA testing of certain items at the scene and by numerous Brady violations that certainly seemed to have occurred. It was a shoddy investigation, imo. Key evidence was conveniently lost by LE. I don't believe he received a fair trial, and I don't think he's guilty. AMOO
I wrote papers from both prosecution and defense viewpoints on the case for years, so I am open to anything and would welcome your comments. I agree that the handling of evidence was terrible and that mistakes have been made. I went from "Unsure" after reading "Fatal Vision" to "Innocent" after reading "Fatal Justice", back to "guilty" after reading more on the case online and on forums like this one. My discussions on this case go back over thirty years:

Arguments for JM being guilty:

1.) That living room is too neat where he claims a life and death struggle occurred.
2.) Who would be stupid enough to break into a home of a Green Barret Doctor, his pregnant wife, and two little girls to fight with them?
3.) How could Stockley, Mitchel, and their friends had carried lights and matches into the home. It was raining outside. Candle wicks and matches would be wet.
4.) How could the group had known the layout of McDonald's house, and where to get the weapons? How did they know that Macdonald would be sleeping on the couch when they got there. Who let them in?
5.) The photo of the living room and the overturned coffee table in FV shows that there would barely be enough room for one person, two at most to stand. Let alone fight. The lamp would be knocked over, there would be blood all over room, furniture broken. Compare the living room to the status of the Master Bedroom.
6.) What assailants after an attack leave the one person alive who can later identify him?
7.) Why aren't the wounds on Macdonald more severe? The worst was a partially collapsed lung. But the skin around it shows no other marks or scratches.
8.) Fibers from Kim Macdonald were found in the Master Bedroom bed Same with Collette. Jeff has never been able to provide a substantial reason for how they got there.
9.) Fragments of the kitchen sink gloves found in the bedding. Jeff says he did the dishes that night. Fred Kassab, who had known Jeff since we was a kid, said he never saw Jeff wash a dish in his life.

Things not sure about that could create reasonable doubt:

1.) The Black Wool fibers not traceable to anything in the home found on Collette's Pajama sleeve, and on the club used to murder her,
2.) Several unmarked fingerprints found in the home.
3.) 22-24 inch long black wig hair strands found on the living room floor where Macdonald said he struggled with the intruders.
4.) The whole Jimmy Frier phone call conversation. Who answered the phone? Helena said she did. But even if she didn't I always wanted to know all of what he said, and that conversation has been lost. Would love to see any phone records from that time. When I first heard about #4 on the program The Justice Files, doing a spotlight on the case, I almost fell off my chair! This was before FJ came out and I thought, "Why isn't this stuff in FV?

The thing is, there is stronger conclusive evidence as to JM's guilt than the smaller things that could point to his innocence. Over the years, some people did a composite of between 30-50 inconsistent statements made my JM when weighted against the physical evidence.

But neither FV or FJ tells the whole story of the case. FV wants the reader to see JM as guilty, FJ wants to see JM as innocent. Both books omit things.

Satch
 
I'll never forget this,

This was a shocker of all shockers! At the time I was in college, my local Midwest paper was on Microfilm at the library, and I would go down there for hours doing independent study on the case. But I would go to February 17, 1970 and a few dates after with nothing there! This was huge in North Carolina, but had not spread to the rest of the country back when it first happened. I went to college in the 80's.

Anyway, I find this article from one of my local papers and it says, "A candle was found outside the home" and as you can imagine, goose bumps went down my spine as I had not seen this reported anywhere else. I was like OMG!!! Remember, that Jeff always claimed that a woman in a floppy hat held a light to his face, that he thought it could have been a candle. And there was candle wax found on the floor near where Jeff claimed he was attacked.

But not one other paper, and I don't even think FJ says anything about a candle outside the home! Just that the murder weapons. club, knife, and ice-pick were found outside the home. But what if that really happened with a candle found and the original investigators covered up that article as fast as it was found? I mean anybody can publish or delete anything back in the day to make points in their story sound good. This was 1970. I have read many, many, cases with inaccurate information ,even some right here on Websleuths that have inaccurate data. Now, that doesn't necvxcesarily mean a cover up, only that people did not fact check back at that time. But with so many inconsistencies in the Macdonald case, and quesrionable evidence and tactics for years, with both sides omitting things, I will never, for the rest of my life, forget that article about a candle found outside the home, There's strong forensics like the lab losing the skin fragments under Collette's fingernails, and Jeff's pajama bottoms being thrown away, pointing to evidence that will never be known.

It makes you wonder about how much of what really happened that night will always be lost to time.


Satch
 
I wrote papers from both prosecution and defense viewpoints on the case for years, so I am open to anything and would welcome your comments. I agree that the handling of evidence was terrible and that mistakes have been made. I went from "Unsure" after reading "Fatal Vision" to "Innocent" after reading "Fatal Justice", back to "guilty" after reading more on the case online and on forums like this one. My discussions on this case go back over thirty years:

Arguments for JM being guilty:

1.) That living room is too neat where he claims a life and death struggle occurred.
2.) Who would be stupid enough to break into a home of a Green Barret Doctor, his pregnant wife, and two little girls to fight with them?
3.) How could Stockley, Mitchel, and their friends had carried lights and matches into the home. It was raining outside. Candle wicks and matches would be wet.
4.) How could the group had known the layout of McDonald's house, and where to get the weapons? How did they know that Macdonald would be sleeping on the couch when they got there. Who let them in?
5.) The photo of the living room and the overturned coffee table in FV shows that there would barely be enough room for one person, two at most to stand. Let alone fight. The lamp would be knocked over, there would be blood all over room, furniture broken. Compare the living room to the status of the Master Bedroom.
6.) What assailants after an attack leave the one person alive who can later identify him?
7.) Why aren't the wounds on Macdonald more severe? The worst was a partially collapsed lung. But the skin around it shows no other marks or scratches.
8.) Fibers from Kim Macdonald were found in the Master Bedroom bed Same with Collette. Jeff has never been able to provide a substantial reason for how they got there.
9.) Fragments of the kitchen sink gloves found in the bedding. Jeff says he did the dishes that night. Fred Kassab, who had known Jeff since we was a kid, said he never saw Jeff wash a dish in his life.

Things not sure about that could create reasonable doubt:

1.) The Black Wool fibers not traceable to anything in the home found on Collette's Pajama sleeve, and on the club used to murder her,
2.) Several unmarked fingerprints found in the home.
3.) 22-24 inch long black wig hair strands found on the living room floor where Macdonald said he struggled with the intruders.
4.) The whole Jimmy Frier phone call conversation. Who answered the phone? Helena said she did. But even if she didn't I always wanted to know all of what he said, and that conversation has been lost. Would love to see any phone records from that time. When I first heard about #4 on the program The Justice Files, doing a spotlight on the case, I almost fell off my chair! This was before FJ came out and I thought, "Why isn't this stuff in FV?

The thing is, there is stronger conclusive evidence as to JM's guilt than the smaller things that could point to his innocence. Over the years, some people did a composite of between 30-50 inconsistent statements made my JM when weighted against the physical evidence.

But neither FV or FJ tells the whole story of the case. FV wants the reader to see JM as guilty, FJ wants to see JM as innocent. Both books omit things.

Satch
I find Jimmy Friar's declaration very odd and grossly lacking in details. Is there any other documented evidence by him that I can read?

I remember this case and trial while it was happening and read the FV book afterwards. It was long ago and I can't recall it all.

 
Other beliefs I have about the case:
1.) All of the evidencve in the case will never be known, as key pieces were altered or destroyed.
2.) About 80% of the general population believe that Jeff Macdonald is guilty.
3.) Judge Dupree was horribly biased in favor of the prosecution. He disallowed almost everything asked for by the defense. He was also known to be racist. I saw online in one case, it was either an African-American witness or potential juror that he dismissed and he said:

"Go home, and help your Daddy plant some cotton."- Judge Franklin Dupree That is sickening. Could you imagine if he was alive, presiding over cases and said something like that today?

4.) Jim Blackburn went to prison for forging judges signatures on court documents. Macdonald's defense said that he threatened Helena Stockley if she testified. Blackburn denied that claim, but admitted to the signature forging.

5.) Helena Stockley should have been called to testify. "Disallowed by Judge Dupree" ruled as "hearsay."

6.) The defense should have called Jimmy Frier to the stand. (They chose not to on their own accord.)

7.) The case should have been brought before a different judge.

Just goes to show that some of the legal people on Macdonald's case weren't exactly the most ethical or fair legal players. Impartiality was not there, as it should have been in a court of law.

Satch
 
I find Jimmy Friar's declaration very odd and grossly lacking in details. Is there any other documented evidence by him that I can read?

I remember this case and trial while it was happening and read the FV book afterwards. It was long ago and I can't recall it all.

I have not read up on the case for several years. I always wanted to learn more about Jimmy Frier and Helena Stockley. Please read my comments earlier in the thread for more views from me on the case! I was a Sociology major in college. We studied hippie movement culture.

And this is is huge for the prosecution. Most hippies are peace-loving activists and would not hurt children. That's not their style. Even if they were on drugs. They would have a difficult time just getting to the bathroom, than to organize and carry out the murder of three people. This is mentioned in FV.

Satch
 
Again, there is 0 evidence that anyone other than JM committed the horrific crimes that night. He made the story up so he could get away with murder. It's sickening that he was a free man for 9 years after committing the crime, when he should have been arrested & put into prison from Day 1.

Also again, JM's claim that a group of "crazed hippies" broke in & murdered everyone except for him is ludicrous - as the evidence clearly shows. There is 0 evidence that there were any intruders in the house that night, other than what he put there.
 
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I am totally new here (signed up just now) so I hope I don't make too many newbie mistakes. Anyway, I just wanted to pipe in that MacDonald might indeed have gotten away with it had it not been for the dogged relentless pursuit of justice for his daughter & granddaughters by the amazing Freddy Kassab! MacD was smart and, as McG called him "beyond morality," but he couldn't get past Freddie and "his patience of Job!"

Thanks and I'm off to read more posts on my new obsession...The Jeffrey MacDonald Case!

Yes. As was mentioned in last year's great documentary about the case "A Wilderness of Error", Freddy K. (the step-father of JM's deceased wife) initially believed that JM was innocent. However, as time went on he saw that there's no way anyone else could have committed the crimes, so pushed for the re-investigation of the case & for JM's conviction. I completely agree that if not for FK's involvement & pushing for this case to be re-opened, JM would still be walking around free today.
 
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I have not read up on the case for several years. I always wanted to learn more about Jimmy Frier and Helena Stockley. Please read my comments earlier in the thread for more views from me on the case! I was a Sociology major in college. We studied hippie movement culture.

And this is is huge for the prosecution. Most hippies are peace-loving activists and would not hurt children. That's not their style. Even if they were on drugs. They would have a difficult time just getting to the bathroom, than to organize and carry out the murder of three people. This is mentioned in FV.

Satch
The big exception where hippies did hurt people was the Charles Manson murders. Jef,f in the eyes of most people, used ideas from the story about the Manson murders in the Esquire magazine found in the living room, to try to make it look like the Manson killings.

Satch
 
<modsnip - quoted post was removed/off topic>
Where can one watch the mini series these days?
I google JM’s name periodically to see if there’s any thing new, but nothing, as far as I can tell.
 
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Where can one watch the mini series these days?
I google JM’s name periodically to see if there’s any thing new, but nothing, as far as I can tell.
Are you referring to Fatal Vision or Final Vision? You can watch both on Ok.ru. Fatal Vision is available on YouTube.
 
Are you referring to Fatal Vision or Final Vision? You can watch both on Ok.ru. Fatal Vision is available on YouTube.
Ooh, gonna check that out on YT when I get home. I love that miniseries. It cemented me in Gary Cole’s fan club at age 11 & where I remain still w/him on NCIS. And Karl Malden always breaks my heart as Colette’s dad, especially when he asks the forensics guy to explain what happened that night. It’s just so sad.
 

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