Nedra & Patsy's sisters

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Good point, Toltec. I can't imagine why JB wasn't dressed in a pull-up that night either - they were leaving early in the morning, and they'd been at a party that evening. My own experience with my kids is that they will be too busy playing to stop and eat when with friends, but will stop and drink, especially if soda is available. I would think Patsy would want her in one so that if there was a nighttime wetting, they wouldn't need to wash sheets and take baths, etc, before leaving for the plane. Remember Patsy only allowed herself and family about half an hour to get up and get out.

Yes, LHP said Patsy had decided to just let JB wet herself, and figure it out that way. Seems like an odd choice when

A.) the kid is 6 and wetting herself both day and night should be a sign of something wrong, certainly not "no big deal", and

B.) she just accepted what the dr said about it being normal (when it's clearly not) and never followed up with a pediatric specialist (could very well have been a medical issue the regular ped. missed that a specialist wouldn't), and

C.) The child had frequent infections that are hard to clear up from always being in wet underwear.

It might just be me, but if my daughter has frequent infections on her genitals at age 6 from constant exposure to wetness, not only am I going to keep her in pull-ups so that she doesn't have to endure infections and treatment for them, but I'm going to consult every specialist that may be able to find what's making her have such issues with incontinence.

I guarantee you that if Patsy was suffering from incontinence and had to treat frequent infections from always being wet, she'd have wasted no time consulting a specialist to help her clear up the problem.
Why didn't JonBenet deserve the same kind of attention?

It seems they didn't want to take her to anyone but Dr Beuf.I think he knew something was amiss and was covering for them.And they were afraid for her see any other Dr but him.Was that for the same reason she was denied medical help after the head injury??Or was the head injury meant to kill in the first place?
 
In looking at the pictures of her bed, it does not look like it. There are clothes on her bed - anyone have pictures of the bedroom?

I had wondered at one point...if she had wet herself IN THE CAR..on the way home from the White's (while she was sleeping in the car)...but, then I don't know where the pineapple would fit in, if that was the case.
 
I had wondered at one point...if she had wet herself IN THE CAR..on the way home from the White's (while she was sleeping in the car)...but, then I don't know where the pineapple would fit in, if that was the case.


I wonder where the red turtle neck is.
 
I wonder where the red turtle neck is.

Excellent question...I have wondered about that too. Can you remember if it was on the evidence list? I have posted a partial evidence list..on a board, but I can't remember if it was on WBS, or not. And I believe that someone over at FFJ posted it too. But, I can't remember if the red turtleneck was on it, or not...I will have to do a search and find out.
 
Excellent question...I have wondered about that too. Can you remember if it was on the evidence list? I have posted a partial evidence list..on a board, but I can't remember if it was on WBS, or not. And I believe that someone over at FFJ posted it too. But, I can't remember if the red turtleneck was on it, or not...I will have to do a search and find out.

No, but I really wish there was more on it.
 
Excellent question...I have wondered about that too. Can you remember if it was on the evidence list? I have posted a partial evidence list..on a board, but I can't remember if it was on WBS, or not. And I believe that someone over at FFJ posted it too. But, I can't remember if the red turtleneck was on it, or not...I will have to do a search and find out.

it's on there,I was reading it last nite at acandyrose.com
 
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-inventory.htm


why would they take BR's science project,any ideas?

and the 3 partially wrapped packages..I think they were partially *unwrapped,as someone was looking for the Bloomie's.

I don't see any hair brushes or combs for JB on the list,nor hair samples either.

I remember reading pieces of carpet from JB's bedroom were cut out and taken,and then we have JR trying to account for his underwear fibers in her room.Apparently he was worried some might be found there?
 
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-inventory.htm


why would they take BR's science project,any ideas?

and the 3 partially wrapped packages..I think they were partially *unwrapped,as someone was looking for the Bloomie's.

I don't see any hair brushes or combs for JB on the list,nor hair samples either.

I remember reading pieces of carpet from JB's bedroom were cut out and taken,and then we have JR trying to account for his underwear fibers in her room.Apparently he was worried some might be found there?


JMO, are you saying that JR mentioned his underwear fibers being in her room before they were found???
 
[/b]

JMO, are you saying that JR mentioned his underwear fibers being in her room before they were found???

I'm saying I think he was afraid some were found and he was trying to account for that in DOI,pprback,p.13-

"For the first time I am aware that I have been racing around the house in my underwear.I hurry back to the third floor bedroom to grab my clothes.I stop in JonBenet's room and look under the bed to make sure she isn't there."

He also mentions checking the walk-in refridgerator as well,so I wonder if he was trying to account for something there as well.I've noticed he and Patsy don't bother to specifically point anything out unless it's in their best interest to do so.
 
...
A.) the kid is 6 and wetting herself both day and night should be a sign of something wrong, certainly not "no big deal", and ...

Do we know if this wetting was from JB going a normal length of time and then wetting her pants instead of going to the bathroom or was it from ongoing leakage?

If it was the latter, wouldn't that be a cause for some concern?
 
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-inventory.htm


why would they take BR's science project,any ideas?

and the 3 partially wrapped packages..I think they were partially *unwrapped,as someone was looking for the Bloomie's.

The science project may have had tape or rope on it. I don't recall seeing exactly what the science project was.

There are so many red flags in this crime scene, and those "partially unwrapped" presents are one of them. This was the day AFTER Christmas. Wouldn't the presents have had to be already wrapped to be given, even if they were being taken to Charlevoix to be given there? PR had already admitted in an interview to purchasing the size 12 Bloomies panties for a relative...later saying that they never got around to giving them. Of course, because PR had wrapped them to be given and then had to "unwrap" those gifts to find them when they were needed to redress her dead daughter! I don't recall seeing in any interview where PR was pressed on why those gifts had been unwrapped again. When you wrap a gift, you wrap it. You don't "partally" wrap it. Those gifts in the photos were "partially unwrapped" Big difference. She was LOOKING for those panties. NO INTRUDER would have known about that!
Or was this one other task PR had to complete that night after returning from the White's and never got to do because she was busy dealing with a murder and then staging.
 
The science project may have had tape or rope on it. I don't recall seeing exactly what the science project was.

There are so many red flags in this crime scene, and those "partially unwrapped" presents are one of them. This was the day AFTER Christmas. Wouldn't the presents have had to be already wrapped to be given, even if they were being taken to Charlevoix to be given there? PR had already admitted in an interview to purchasing the size 12 Bloomies panties for a relative...later saying that they never got around to giving them. Of course, because PR had wrapped them to be given and then had to "unwrap" those gifts to find them when they were needed to redress her dead daughter! I don't recall seeing in any interview where PR was pressed on why those gifts had been unwrapped again. When you wrap a gift, you wrap it. You don't "partally" wrap it. Those gifts in the photos were "partially unwrapped" Big difference. She was LOOKING for those panties. NO INTRUDER would have known about that!
Or was this one other task PR had to complete that night after returning from the White's and never got to do because she was busy dealing with a murder and then staging.

The whole size 12 underwear thing is one of the reasons I think JR's more involved than PR in this whole mess.

I think whoever killed JBR had to replace the size six pants because of the bleeding from the vaginal wound. I further tend to believe that PR would have used the right size underwear; even if for some bizarre reason she wanted to use the size 12's, she wouldn't have had to unwrap several packages to look for them, because she's the one that wrapped them in the first place!

When I'm wrapping gifts, if I forget to label them right away, I can still tell by the 'feel' of the package which is which. Only one of those packages would have contained underwear, and if PR wrapped them then she'd know which one.

But JR wouldn't know, and would have had to open the packages enough to 'peek' into them to see where the underwear was. He also would be less likely than PR to realize just how ridiculously large the 12s would be.
 
The whole size 12 underwear thing is one of the reasons I think JR's more involved than PR in this whole mess.

I think whoever killed JBR had to replace the size six pants because of the bleeding from the vaginal wound. I further tend to believe that PR would have used the right size underwear; even if for some bizarre reason she wanted to use the size 12's, she wouldn't have had to unwrap several packages to look for them, because she's the one that wrapped them in the first place!

When I'm wrapping gifts, if I forget to label them right away, I can still tell by the 'feel' of the package which is which. Only one of those packages would have contained underwear, and if PR wrapped them then she'd know which one.

But JR wouldn't know, and would have had to open the packages enough to 'peek' into them to see where the underwear was. He also would be less likely than PR to realize just how ridiculously large the 12s would be.

I agree Dru.
 
If it was John, why wouldn't he just get underwear from JB's room? Why would John care about day of the week underwear? Would John have even known about the larger underwear and that they were in a wrapped package?
 
The whole size 12 underwear thing is one of the reasons I think JR's more involved than PR in this whole mess.

I think whoever killed JBR had to replace the size six pants because of the bleeding from the vaginal wound. I further tend to believe that PR would have used the right size underwear; even if for some bizarre reason she wanted to use the size 12's, she wouldn't have had to unwrap several packages to look for them, because she's the one that wrapped them in the first place!

When I'm wrapping gifts, if I forget to label them right away, I can still tell by the 'feel' of the package which is which. Only one of those packages would have contained underwear, and if PR wrapped them then she'd know which one.

But JR wouldn't know, and would have had to open the packages enough to 'peek' into them to see where the underwear was. He also would be less likely than PR to realize just how ridiculously large the 12s would be.

Dru,

Not disagreeing with you, but how would John know that the underwear was there?

Why should he not simply go upstairs open JonBenet's underwear drawer and select a pair of pants?

Both options may take as long?

Why bother wiping away any blood if the staging is intended to suggest a sexually motivated predator assaulted JonBenet?


.
 
Dru,

Not disagreeing with you, but how would John know that the underwear was there?

Why should he not simply go upstairs open JonBenet's underwear drawer and select a pair of pants?

Both options may take as long?

Why bother wiping away any blood if the staging is intended to suggest a sexually motivated predator assaulted JonBenet?


.

If it was John, why wouldn't he just get underwear from JB's room? Why would John care about day of the week underwear? Would John have even known about the larger underwear and that they were in a wrapped package?
I'm going to quote both of you b/c my reply pertains to both..

I think when they decided to change the scene to not putting her body outside (according to the RN),some re-staging had to be done.JR didn't want to get the blame for the staged sexual assault(as the finger would be pointed at him for sexual abuse),so some things had to go...her original underwear,as I agree..it had blood on it.Then she was wiped down,redressed,and covered w the blanket,in an attempt to hide it all.
JR noticed THAT pair of underwear said WED. on them...and that was important to him,as this was a staged bedtime KN from the *same night.SO,I think he asked Patsy for another pair that said WED. on them.I'm guessing there wasn't another pair,and she told him about the underwear downstairs,(I think she was upstairs at this point,distancing herself from JB's body).Only she mentioned it wasn't JB's size.That in itself didn't matter to JR...he needed them to say WED. on them.(He may also have been afraid someone at the White's helped her in the bathroom and noticed WED. underwear).We also don't know that the underwear removed from her wasn't the same color,either.Plus,they may not have wanted to go back upstairs and risk having Burke see or hear them..it does seem the blanket and attached barbie gown came from the dryer downstairs?

That all reminds me of something,although not quite the same,in a similar context of sorts.Whenever we went on vacation,sometimes our kids would meet other kids and they would be in and out of the room.(I never allowed my kids to go to other rooms unless we already knew the family).But other kids would sometimes come over to see ours,and my husb. would always go sit out by the pool whenever they came over.WHY??? B/c he didn't want to put himself in a position of ever being accused of doing anything wrong,(which he wouldn't have done anyway).
BUT....this is what JR was trying to do..he was trying to keep himself out of the position of being accused of doing anything wrong,(b/c JB had the staged sexual assault on her per their plan to put her outside)..so he changed the underwear,(making sure it said the same day on it),wiped her down and redressed her,and covered her w the blanket,all in an attempt to conceal the staged assault,so he wouldn't get blamed for it,seeing as her body was now going to be found in the house.

edited to add: I think that's the reason he wanted to get out of town ASAP...he knew something would likely be found upon autopsy.He hid her assault in order to give himself time to do just that ! I also think that's when he found her when he did...he wanted that plane to be able to go while it and the pilot still could.
 
If it was John, why wouldn't he just get underwear from JB's room? Why would John care about day of the week underwear? Would John have even known about the larger underwear and that they were in a wrapped package?


Dru,

Not disagreeing with you, but how would John know that the underwear was there?

Why should he not simply go upstairs open JonBenet's underwear drawer and select a pair of pants?

Both options may take as long?

Why bother wiping away any blood if the staging is intended to suggest a sexually motivated predator assaulted JonBenet?


.

Here's my theory on this, but it's just a theory; I'm more than willing to be persuaded otherwise, should the evidence lead elsewhere.

I think JR is the killer.

I think he had been abusing JBR. I don't think it was typical pedophilia; just a crime of opportunity committed by a man who was, apparently, never particularly faithful, and who suddenly had his young daughter running around dressed like a much older woman. I think the death of his oldest daughter and PR's illness combined to create the psychological stress that led to the abuse; I think the extent of the abuse was something short of actual intercourse, and therefore excused in JR's mind as being 'not really wrong.'

I think in the days leading up to the murder JBR began to show signs of telling; I think JR was worried about the visit to Charlevoix when JBR would be around family members with medical training; I think JR was worried about the number of times PR was taking JBR to the doctor, and the discussions of JBR's toilet issues.

On the night of the murder I think JR encountered JBR alone in the house somewhere. Perhaps he went to her room, or maybe she went downstairs while he was still up (a very different thing than her sneaking down to a dark kitchen, which few children will do). Please note: I don't think he intended to abuse her that night; in fact, I think he was backing off already out of concern that she was getting older and might tell. But something happened; maybe he yelled at her to get to sleep or to go back to bed, and she said or did something that caused him to fear that she was going to tell someone what had been going on. She could have said something as simple as "I don't have to do what you say," and he could have taken that as a threat; whatever the case, the man who kicked a kitchen door and later, almost threw a Globe reporter onto the pavement had the kind of violent temper that explodes into violent action. I think he struck the head blow.

And once that had happened, I think he, and he alone, really had a strong enough motive to commit this crime. There could be no pretense of accident, because he knew what kind of evidence would be discovered. In fact, so concerned about that internal evidence was he that one of the first things he did was to inflict a deliberate vaginal injury--and I think he knew perfectly well that she wasn't dead when he did that. He then strangled her; by this time he had already moved her into the basement--in fact, I think that's where he took JBR as soon as he realized how severe the head injury was.

But now he has time to think about things, and he decides that he will need PR's help, if he's going to accomplish his objectives, which at that moment includes the idea of getting JBR's body out of the house. That was his plan, and I think it was only reluctantly abandoned when he realized that there simply wasn't a safe way to do it.

In order to get PR to help, he must do certain things. Specifically, he must remove all evidence of sexual assault, and then stage the crime scene to make it look like BR has committed the crime. A golf club placed near the body; a length of rope around JBR's neck with BR's pocket knife, and a hint at the injury BR inflicted on JBR years ago will be all that's needed--but JR must clean up the blood and replace the underwear; PR can't suspect what's been going on.

JBR is wearing the "Wednesday" size six underwear. The only person who might be suspicious if there's a different pair is PR. Even if every single person at the White's had somehow seen JBR's underwear (not likely!) who's going to raise any suspicions about JBR wearing a different pair, when all her parents have to say is, "Of course she's wearing a different pair! We always put clean underwear on her at bedtime!" But if JR did the things I think he did, then it was imperative that JBR appear to be wearing the same underwear she was wearing before, at least when PR was first brought into the situation. So JR not only has to replace the underwear, he has to replace it with a "Wednesday" pair, and he knows that PR has bought some for the niece, because if she's like any other woman I know she told him all about what she bought everyone whether he was interested or not. But he doesn't know which package it's in, and has to unwrap several of them before he finds it.

I've no doubt that JR later told PR, very heartbroken, that BR may have been even more troubled than they thought, and that he'd had to remove evidence of some kind of molestation, necessitating the size 12 underwear. But on the night of the murder it was only important that PR not ask too many questions, and a totally different pair of underwear might have caused her to do that.

And why stage the scene to make PR think BR was responsible? PR would never have agreed to cover up for JR, especially if abuse had been going on; but PR would have done anything to cover for BR, especially if NOT covering for him would mean losing him. (And yes, he wouldn't have been held criminally responsible, but PR would still have lost him to the state, and might die of cancer before ever getting him back.)

Later, the "BR" staging was removed, and the "Pedo/intruder" staging created; but some elements of the "BR" staging remained (like the pocketknife, which was placed carelessly on a nearby countertop).
 
Dru,I don't rule that out,I really don't.The only thing that bothers me about that is Patsy saying she had flashbacks of JB screaming..so there must have been a struggle.And the collar of her shirt being twisted,ie-the manual strangulation in ST's book.Then Patsy crying when she sees the red shirt in the photo,and trying to account for something when she says she washed stains out of JB's red jumpsuit that morning.
The only reason I mention her underwear being seen at the White's is b/c she was known to ask for whomever was around to wipe her,and FW had done that bf.
In regards to the flashbacks,she talks about that in DOI.pprback,p. 123:

Sitting in her car on the way to the Dr's office,frightening thoughts started racing through my mind.Almost as if JonBenet's death were occurring for the first time,the terror and horror of what had happened settled over me.My heart pounded like a bass drum booming inside my chest.The "thump-thump" kept increasing and I fought to breathe.As if someone were strangling me,I desperately gasped for air.I kept thinking,I've lost my daughter,who killed my child?The fierce reality of it all came crashing down,and a panic attack swallowed me.

I think she's reliving part of the murder,ie-she strangled JB,and she's transferring that feeling onto herself.She saw the agony JB felt when she was trying so hard to breathe while she was strangling her.

And there are lots of other things she did that appear to be confessions,but that's it in a nutshell for now.Someone earlier said Patsy just couldn't stop confessing,and I believe that to be true.My gut feeling tells me she did the initial attack,and not following up on getting medical help(by the other parent) was nixed for the same reason they wouldn't take her to another Dr. for her soiling issues and infections.I think that's why the word incest was looked up,either that or it was to get a definition of it when they decided not to take her body out of the house.
I'm not so sure it was an accident.Patsy may have convinced herself of that,but DENIAL is a happy place,everyone is happy in that nice little place.
I don't rule out soiling issues but,I think it's much more likely it was something that struck her more personally,such as JR molesting her, and PR not being able to handle that she was no longer the fairest one in the house..ie-snow white syndrome.
I think that's possibly the reason JB was found crying and saying she 'didn't feel pretty'.
 

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