Nedra & Patsy's sisters

[Solace]

rashomon,



Am I?

Are you sure you read what I posted correctly, are you a native english reader?

Please explain using any available forensic evidence why you consider there is any other cause of death other than hypoxia? See below for the available forensic evidence.


.

You are so rude. Lighten up UK. She is entitled to post what she believes to be true and she the autopsy report says blunt trauma associated with strangulation to be the cause of death. There is absolutely no positive proof that it was hypoxia. Her head looks like it was hit by a shotgun blast. So take it down a notch.

AND WORD FOR WORD:

"Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma."

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks Dru. Maybe this is where SuperDave got his info from - the article in which the famous forensic pathologist Dr. Wright said that 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the head blow and the stranguation (bold type mine):


If the head blow came well before the strangulation, an intruder scenario is highly unlikely. Unless IDIs believe that the intruder was a 'necrophile' who enjoyed garotting dead victims. Very implausible scenario imo.
In short, everything points to the garrote scene as being staged by the parents.
Another thing which points to the strangulation as being staged is that there is no evidence whatsoever of internal injuries to JB's neck, as would occur in strangulations. No damage to the hyoid bone, no damage to the thyroid, no contusions, no bruising - nothing. Only petechiae around her neck where the cord was tied. It seems to me that the stager of the scene, believing JB already dead, merely tied a knot around her neck and that was it. Wouldn't violent pulling at the ligature (by a person who wanted to make sure that JonBenet would die from the stranglation) have caused inner neck wounds?

rashomon,

As you posted above

CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old
female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral
trauma.

Not ligature strangulation, which as you actually suggest:

It seems to me that the stager of the scene, believing JB already dead, merely tied a knot around her neck and that was it.

As I have mentioned before there is an anomaly in the autopsy report , whereas her upper circumferential abrasions and petechiae are given prominence at the start of the report:

FINAL DIAGNOSIS:
I. Ligature strangulation
A. Circumferential ligature with associated ligature furrow
of neck
B. Abrasions and petechial hemorrhages, neck
C. Petechial hemorrhages, conjunctival surfaces of eyes and
skin of face

The lower non-circumferential abrasions are not accorded a similar status.

You yourself have highlighted this aspect to bolster your own theory.

Dr. Ronald Wright's theory about the sequence of assaults is perfectly feasible, so is a manual strangulation, followed by a head injury, both sequences would lead to the same result e.g. death by hypoxia!

To assert one over the other is to selectively ignore the available forensic evidence.

.

 

[Solace]

rashomon,

As you posted abve

Not ligature strangulation, which as you actually suggest:

As I have mentioned before there is an anomaly in the autopsy report , whereas her upper circumferential abrasions and petechiae are given prominence at the start of the report:

The lower non-circumferential abrasions are not accorded a similar status.

You yourself have highlighted this aspect to bolster your own theory.

Dr. Ronald Wright's theory about the sequence of assaults is perfectly feasible, so is a manual strangulation, followed by a head injury, both sequences would lead to the same result e.g death by hypoxia!

To assert one over the other is to selectively ignore the available forensic evidence.

.

Well for that matter than UK, according to you, everyone who has died has basically died by hypoxia. We don't need forensics then. We have UK to tell us what to think. Because everyone will eventually die by hypoxia. In fact, we do not need any other medical terms. Thank you UK.

The coroner says: Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.

I would like to suggest that rather than changing things to fit the scenario we like, that we all deal with the facts that are there.

 

[JMO8778]

what does 'associated with' mean ? that she died of both,that it could be one or the other,or that she died of strangulation, but the head wound would have killed her anyway?

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
Am I?

Are you sure you read what I posted correctly, are you a native english reader?

Please explain using any available forensic evidence why you consider there is any other cause of death other than hypoxia?

UKguy,

I'm no native speaker, but I think I know what the word 'correlation' means.

I went went stricly by your sentence which said verbatim "There was NO other cause of death". [other than hypoxia] Which is wrong, since the autopsy report said
CLINICOPATHOLOGIC CORRELATION: "Cause of death of this six year old
female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral
trauma."

So the autopsy report named two COD. Ok, JB (already nearing death from the head wound) may have drawn her last breath because the ligature finally cut off the last supply of oxygen and petechiae formed.
But the head wound alone would also have caused JonBenet's death. (see the article with Dr. Wright's comments).

Is there a reason why it is so important for you that the strangulation came last?

 

[Solace]

what does 'associated with' mean ? that she died of both,that it could be one or the other,or that she died of strangulation, but the head wound would have killed her anyway?

It means that Dr. Meyer does NOT KNOW and neither does UK.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

As you posted above

Not ligature strangulation, which as you actually suggest:

Sorry, but that's wrong again.
For the final diagnosis in the autopsy report says verbatim:

FINAL DIAGNOSIS:
I. Ligature strangulation
A. Circumferential ligature with associated ligature furrow
of neck
B. Abrasions and petechial hemorrhages, neck
C. Petechial hemorrhages, conjunctival surfaces of eyes and
skin of face

Therefore, when Dr. Meyer names 'asphxia by strangulation' as one of the causes of death, the logical inference to be drawn is that he refers to the ligature strangulation listed above as being the cause of this asphyxia.
If there had been evidence of manual strangulation, he would have listed it in his diagnosis too, dont you think so?
Even that triangular shape on JBs neck, which looks like a real bad wound, was no more than an abrasion.
Sure, Patsy could have grabbed JB by the collar, yanking her around, but wouldn't manual strangulation have left far worse marks on her neck than simple abrasions?

 

[UKGuy]

UKguy,

I'm no native speaker, but I think I know what the word 'correlation' means.

I went went stricly by your sentence which said verbatim "There was NO other cause of death". [other than hypoxia] Which is wrong, since the autopsy report said
CLINICOPATHOLOGIC CORRELATION: "Cause of death of this six year old
female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral
trauma."

So the autopsy report named two COD. Ok, JB (already nearing death from the head wound) may have drawn her last breath because the ligature finally cut off the last supply of oxygen and petechiae formed.
But the head wound alone would also have caused JonBenet's death. (see the article with Dr. Wright's comments).

Is there a reason why it is so important for you that the strangulation came last?

rashomon,

As I suspected I think there is a misunderstanding here, I do not consider it so important that the strangulation came last?

Again can you explain the mechanism by which JonBenet's head wound may have caused her death, as you suggest:

But the head wound alone would also have caused JonBenet's death. (see the article with Dr. Wright's comments).

.

 

[Solace]

rashomon,

As I suspected I think there is a misunderstanding here, I do not consider it so important that the strangulation came last?

Again can you explain the mechanism by which JonBenet's head wound may have caused her death, as you suggest:


.

The mechanism might be that it looks like someone took a magnum and shot her in the head and then it split 8 1/2 inches. Come on.

 

[UKGuy]

what does 'associated with' mean ? that she died of both,that it could be one or the other,or that she died of strangulation, but the head wound would have killed her anyway?

JMO8778,

associated with simply means it may have been a contributing factor.

You have the same terminology used in medical blind trials where the statistical results are attempted to be separated from random effects non-causal effects, and those that may have some influence become statistically significant and become associated with etc.

Coroner Meyer is stating unambiguously that JonBenet died from hypoxia, he reckons the major causal factor in this was asphyxia by strangulation, since he cannot rule out her head injury not contributing towards the hypoxia, he corelates it, or associates it.

If Coroner Meyer thought her head injury had been the cause of death it would have been itemised first e.g.

CLINICOPATHOLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is craniocerebral trauma associated with tracheal trauma.

.

 

[Solace]

JMO8778,

associated with simply means it may have been a contributing factor.

Contributing simply means it contributed to her death.

 

[coloradokares]

JMO8778,

associated with simply means it may have been a contributing factor.

You have the same terminology used in medical blind trials where the statistical results are attempted to be separated from random effects non-causal effects, and those that may have some influence become statistically significant and become associated with etc.

Coroner Meyer is stating unambiguously that JonBenet died from hypoxia, he reckons the major causal factor in this was asphyxia by strangulation, since he cannot rule out her head injury not contributing towards the hypoxia, he corelates it, or associates it.

If Coroner Meyer thought her head injury had been the cause of death it would have been itemised first e.g.

CLINICOPATHOLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is craniocerebral trauma associated with tracheal trauma.

.

CLINICOPATHOLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old
female is craniocerebral trauma assocated with tracheal trauma?!? I have never seen the official reports detail much in the way of tracheal trauma in fact they seem to make more note of the lack of it. Hyoid bone intact etc!!

 

[UKGuy]

CLINICOPATHOLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old
female is craniocerebral trauma assocated with tracheal trauma?!? I have never seen the official reports detail much in the way of tracheal trauma in fact they seem to make more note of the lack of it. Hyoid bone intact etc!!

coloradokares,

I agree, I simply reversed the corelated and causal factors precisely to highlight that they are not being given equal weight!


.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

According to Dr Wecht's book, JonBenet's trachea (cricoid cartilages) was undamaged - hyoid bone intact, as were thyroid cartilages (larnyx). No hemorrhaging found, either.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

As I suspected I think there is a misunderstanding here, I do not consider it so important that the strangulation came last?

But for some reason you are insisting that ashphyxia was the 'only' cause of death? You must have a reason for insisting on that. You probably want to fit something into you theory. What exactly?

Again can you explain the mechanism by which JonBenet's head wound may have caused her death, as you suggest:

You should ask this questoon to Dr. Meyer, for it was he who listed craniocerebral trauma as one of the causes of death.

Aside from that, a look at the X-ray which shows the horrific wound to JonBenet's skull should answer this question even for medical laypeople like you and me.
Her skull was split in two halves, a piece of skull bone was punched out.
There was extensive hemorrhage in the brain (scalp hemorrhage, subdural hemorrhage, and subarachnoid hemorrhage). From what I have read on medical websites, subarachnoid hemorrhage is a very serious conditon.

 

[Solace]

But for some reason you are insisting that ashphyxia was the 'only' cause of death? You must have a reason for insisting on that. You probably want to fit something into you theory. What exactly?

You should ask this questoon to Dr. Meyer, for it was he who listed craniocerebral trauma as one of the causes of death.

Aside from that, a look at the X-ray which shows the horrific wound to JonBenet's skull should answer this question even for medical laypeople like you and me.
Her skull was split in two halves, a piece of skull bone was punched out.
There was extensive hemorrhage in the brain (scalp hemorrhage, subdural hemorrhage, and subarachnoid hemorrhage). From what I have read on medical websites, subarachnoid hemorrhage is a very serious conditon.

And from what I have read, when your head is in half, it is a fairly serious injury also.

 

[JMO8778]

CLINICOPATHOLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old
female is craniocerebral trauma assocated with tracheal trauma?!? I have never seen the official reports detail much in the way of tracheal trauma in fact they seem to make more note of the lack of it. Hyoid bone intact etc!!

wouldn't it be just the opposite of the way it's written now? ie-craniocerebral (or rather...cerebrocranial) trauma associated with ligature strangulation.

 

[UKGuy]

But for some reason you are insisting that ashphyxia was the 'only' cause of death? You must have a reason for insisting on that. You probably want to fit something into you theory. What exactly?

You should ask this questoon to Dr. Meyer, for it was he who listed craniocerebral trauma as one of the causes of death.

Aside from that, a look at the X-ray which shows the horrific wound to JonBenet's skull should answer this question even for medical laypeople like you and me.
Her skull was split in two halves, a piece of skull bone was punched out.
There was extensive hemorrhage in the brain (scalp hemorrhage, subdural hemorrhage, and subarachnoid hemorrhage). From what I have read on medical websites, subarachnoid hemorrhage is a very serious conditon.

rashomon,

I reckon we both saying the same thing, except I am using precise technical terms.

I'll state it again, since it is clear in the autopsy report, JonBenet died from hypoxia, which is a deficiency of oxygen!

Any interruption of oxygen at any step in its path through the body can lead to asphyxia via various mechanisms e.g.

Suffocation
Strangulation
Drowning
Inhalation of toxic chemicals

These are the most common and well understood, another mechanism is via a serious head injury.

So if JonBenet's subdural hemorrhage was significant enough in volume, it would increase the intracranial pressure, squeezing the brain. Mounting pressure would shut down the brain function, push brain material down into the foramen magnum, the opening at the base of the skull where the spinal cord exits, causing JonBenet to lose conciousness. Now the important part is this, the part of the brainstem that controls breathing also shuts down, respiration stops, and death follows. That is a head injury of the type inficted upon JonBenet has the ability to cause asphyxia!

Since her skull was fractured I do not think the above asphyxiation process occurred.

But her depressed skull fracture did lead to a subdural hemorrhage, which reduces the flow or passage of oxygen, thus contributing to her death via asphyxia, which caused hypoxia.

So a strangulation and head injury both contributed towards asphyxiation.

But Coroner Meyer reckons the strangulation is the major causal factor in her death with her head injury patently being corelated in some manner, which he cannot quantify, e.g. strangulation equals no oxygen!


.

 

[UKGuy]

wouldn't it be just the opposite of the way it's written now? ie-craniocerebral (or rather...cerebrocranial) trauma associated with ligature strangulation.

JMO8778,
Not precisely because either has the ability to kill on its own. If he thought that a combination of strangulation and head injury contributed towards her death, then the cerebrocranial trauma and strangulation would be jointly listed as the causes of death.

He has not done this he is stating that:

CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old
female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral
trauma.

i.e. she was killed by being strangled and her head injury was a factor in this process!

Now if you read rashomon's posts and compare to the autopsy report, then Coroner Meyer should really have stated:

CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old
female is asphyxia by craniocerebral trauma. associated with strangulation attempts.

Why because as rashomon and others point out the ligature appears to have done little physical damage to JonBenet's internal structures, and with her depressed skull fracture being the most serious injury then this must be what caused her death by terminating her blood supply.

imo I reckon the autopsy report plays along with the staging, whereas the physical forensic evidence suggests something else.


.

 

[JMO8778]

I'm confused...you're saying the autopsy report is (at least in part)...fake?
B/c couldn't she have been strangled to death w the ligature,just enough to compress her windpipe and shut off her oxygen supply,but not cause damage to the thyroid gland and other structures?? Or am I wrong?? I've always assumed that to be the case.