Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #2

[ziggy]

It's not a theory, it's a fact that neither Colborn nor Lenk were being sued.

But they were deposed were they not? Their job performance on case #1 was major to the case. Respondeat Superior - actions within scope of employment can make employer liable. Then THEIR JOBS WOULD BE ON THE LINE IF AVERY WON.

It's irrelevant they weren't individually named in the suit. I's normal.

 

[ziggy]

You can also read this, from a civil defense attorney who deals with these types of lawsuits, on why the whole lawsuit motive was overblown:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMur...houghts_from_a_civil_defense_attorney_on_the/

I didn't get that at all from reading it - especially the subsequent responses by other attorneys and the fact that he is purely speculating on the insurance covering part of the damages up to the limit. And someone made a good point: They were out to get him the fist time with ZERO financial motive. The lawsuit may have compounded their already proven malice for SA. In addition, I'll add that I believe they were uber pissed about being deposed.

 

[ziggy]

1. I know the bones were moved.

2. Steven admits he was with Theresa.

3. that's just my description , I am talking about the devices that he bought to use on his girlfriend . although this is not a big thing for me I might of missed that fact being cleared up ?

4. The receipt is also not a big deal ....the body is ...

5. misdial , butt call..... more excuses.

In order for Steven to have not done this the amount of people that would have to be involved in one way or another and over the years have not let it slip to one honest person is too much and the luck each player in the game would had fall on them , you have to believe that .....

Steven was unlucky enough to .......

Call out a girl (whom he gave the creeps too) to do a job , who then goes missing straight after seeing him and on that same night , light a fire , that then gives the real killer or killers the opportunity to burn the girl else-where (really , really well for some reason when you think of what they had planned) and then plant her remains in his fire .

what luck they had those killers because then ...

The police find this girls car else where and they also have the same idea as the killers I mean that they use a girls violent death to go after Steven ... and they manage to smuggle her car that's full of her blood into his car yard/fields, cover it in his blood and his sweat on the hood...they then wait weeks and throw in the key and bullet for good measure.

but not only this they then go after his 16 year old cousin but don't charge him for any offense...associated with the confession

People have said his past behaviour does not come into it ....I disagree , he murdered a cat ....fire was used to burn the cats body ...some might not see how that has anything to do with the murder.....but murdering a family pet you have to admit is found in alot of people that go on to murder so it should be noted , he also has a history of violence towards women ...one being he's girlfriend who he very recently to the murder had attacked. I see these things as thing I would take into account.

brendan getting bleach on his pants (according to his mother) on the night this all went down just adds a little layer.

were things done wrong? yes !

should there be new trails ? yes !

Brendan would most likely be released but I believe there is enough evidence to convict Avery.

#3 can be cleared by reading Brendan's trial transcripts. Also, no rope fibers found on SA bed posts. All evidence found burned is discussed. I respectfully request some research on your part. It would save other posters time spent refuting misinformation. I think we'd all prefer facts to rumors. I'm not being snarky, I just believe it's part of the process here and what sets this forum apart from others.

 

[ziggy]

BTW, I hadn't realized there was a "back entrance" away from ALL residences until I saw that diagram. Even more convinced that car was planted there by someone other than an Avery.

And per testimony, the bent license plates of the Rav4 were found in a junked car that was said to have been on the most likely path from the Rav4 to SA trailer. Hard for me to make out where that might be on the map.

 

[shadowraiths]

Here is an interesting 2006 article that covers the case/players.

Milwaukee Magazine

From the article, it appears they took DNA samples from all of the Avery's. Also, I had wondered about the gun. And, of course, it gives some details wrt how the key was found. All in all, very interesting read.

 

[ziggy]

I very rarely post. I do not know if this has been considered in all the pages upon pages of posts on this subject, however I can not stop thinking about one point being a woman myself; if Teresa said she felt creeped out by SA and was asked to go to an address directly next to and on the same property as SA's after being there many times before....why would she go? I mean the road was called Avery Road. Red flag? Yes I think SA is creepy myself. But if she was being harassed by SA and then went out there, why? And why stay and take pictures as testified by the bus driver instead of high tailing it out of there?

There is so much that doesn't add up. Maybe SA did kill her but the LE were definitely taking the lead from a coerced confession of a 16 year old and making all those things appear to be true instead oft properly investigating.

The saddest part for me is that no one knows to this day what really happened to Teresa because LE botched the entire case.

If she was being harassed by SA, why go out to the salvage yard?

Why were other potential suspects never questioned?

Where is the blood?

Poor Teresa and her family.

Yes, she'd been out there at least 4 times prior. I didn't read any testimony regarding her being creeped out by SA. Not to say it isn't true but, TH knew it was as Averys property she was going to. SA apparently called, made appointment for Barb Janda, asked them to "send that same girl" (didn't ask for her by name even though she'd been there several times) and TH told her coworker she was headed to the Avery place. So any suspected trickery by SA to get TH to go out there wasn't very successful because she knew where she was going and didn't offer any feelings of dread or hesitation on that last call to Auto Trader coworker.

 

[Sleuther87]

Misdial or butt call is not an "excuse". It's a possible explanation. If you are going to dismiss all alternative explanations as "excuses" without any justification then why bother to discuss the case at all? That's a ridiculously biased position to take.

I'll tell you why they're not very good explanations imo:

1. I've never seen a butt dial that lasted only 13 seconds.

2. Whether a butt dial or a misdial, one would assume it would be with *67 like the first 2 calls, but it wasn't.

 

[katydid23]

If Avery really did pour gasoline on the family cat, and throw the poor thing into a fire, then I can't feel too sympathetic towards him. Maybe his evil ways got him where he is today.

 

[shadowraiths]

Why the hell hasn't poor Brendan been diagnosed with some form of learning disability? Or is it purely the lack of knowledge of mental health in America?
Had he been diagnosed it would have been very significant in the trial and there would be no way that the confession would have been used in court.
What a shambles, Americans should be embarrassed of their judicial system.


Sent from mi bloody iPhone

Basically, each state has their own statutes with regard to competency (i.e., competency to stand trial, competency to plead guilty, competency to be executed). Here is Wisconsin's Competency statute: §971.13. And here is the federal definition of "Competent to stand trial." In Brendon's case, and imnsho, his atty should have, at the very least, requested a "competency hearing."

As for his confession? This, btw, is one of the reasons I suspect so many are outraged. As it is quite obvious that this kid had no comprehension whatsoever what was going on in those interviews. He very clearly seemed to think if he told them what they wanted, he could just go home. This is the comprehension of a child, not an adult, who can truly assist in their defense. And, btw, one of many things, I find troubling about our CJS, is trying children as adults.

But anyway, enough of my soap boxing! lol

 

[Deeptoad]

Believe whatever conspiracy you like on here, but that's not how it works in the courtroom, and that's why Steven Avery is locked up and going nowhere.

He was locked up and going nowhere for 18 years for a crime he did not commit. Conspiracy or not, people should be positively horrified that this is 'how it works' in the criminal justice system.

 

[Sleuther87]

He was locked up and going nowhere for 18 years for a crime he did not commit. Conspiracy or not, people should be positively horrified that this is 'how it works' in the criminal justice system.

Yes, feel horrified at the previous false conviction, but I see no real reason to feel horrified at this new one.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

He was locked up and going nowhere for 18 years for a crime he did not commit. Conspiracy or not, people should be positively horrified that this is 'how it works' in the criminal justice system.

I agree.

This quote from Jerome Buting sums it up nicely imo.

"We can all say that we’re never gonna commit a crime, but we can never guarantee that someone will never accuse us of a crime, then if that happens, then... ya know, good luck in this criminal justice system."

 

[Deeptoad]

Yes, feel horrified at the previous false conviction, but I see no real reason to feel horrified at this new one.

I'm going to politely disagree with you on that.

Take just one thing - the key that was finally found in Avery's room. Teresa's DNA was not found on it. There's no reasonable explanation for that. Avery's was. But, only his. That's also pretty mystifying, yes? If she were using it every day, her DNA would have been present. If it were lying around her apartment, chances are pretty good her roommate's DNA would have been present. Only Avery's was found.

To me (and, I don't speak for anyone else), that is simply impossible and clear evidence that the key was planted. The cops had plenty of motivation to do so. If Avery were truly guilty and they had a strong case to bring a conviction, there would be no need to plant evidence.

I won't argue with you on it, though. I can absolutely see why someone would think him guilty. What I am saying is that the impropriety in and around the criminal justice system is not ends justify the means. It's very dangerous, biased and illegitimate when things like planted evidence make the cut.

 

[LemonMousse]

I'll tell you why they're not very good explanations imo:

1. I've never seen a butt dial that lasted only 13 seconds.

2. Whether a butt dial or a misdial, one would assume it would be with *67 like the first 2 calls, but it wasn't.

1: Haven't you? I managed to butt dial someone for over five minutes once. The phone was in my pocket, called someone.....and they had the pleasure of listening to my heels clicking for ages.

EDIT: I misread you. There's some minimum amount of time a butt dial lasts? No, there isn't. And there certainly isn't when it's a straightforward misdial...which is equally possible. Oh, and if voicemail picked it up that would end the call.

2: Exactly. The last call was different to the first two. That's the point. And as someone else pointed out, the *67 wouldn't necessarily get applied on last number redial.

 

[shadowraiths]

If Avery really did pour gasoline on the family cat, and throw the poor thing into a fire, then I can't feel too sympathetic towards him. Maybe his evil ways got him where he is today.

From my read of the Milwaukee Magazine article, it sounds like the Avery family were regularly involved in illegal and violent behavior (i.e., animal torture, domestic violence, pedophilia and other sex offenses).

What is especially notable with respect to SA, and could arguably could go to "prior bad acts" (i.e., supports the "pattern of behavior" that would be relevant to the prosecution's case) is this bit (also from the Milwaukee Magazine article):

The bad blood thickened between Avery and the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department in January 1985, when Avery ran a deputy’s wife off the road at gunpoint and tried to force her into his car.​

Also, I will admit, I was unsurprised with regard to the charge/conviction. That is, in light of the fact that this man continued to engage in questionable, and arguably, illegal behavior, after he was released, makes that whole "leap" to murder quite plausible. Based upon his criminal record alone, this is clearly a guy who has serious impulse control issues.

That being said, with regard to the the innocence vs guilty bit? I absolutely do not believe it went down as the DA described. Esp considering their scenario was based solely upon the coerced confession of his mentally challenged nephew (who, btw, was the only Avery that did not have a criminal record).

After reading more documents, and I still have tons left to read, I am of the opinion that he killed her elsewhere. That would explain her blood in the trunk of her car. That is, that he brought her body back to the burn pit. I also think that he is simply not that bright, and that he really thought he would get away with it, bc he could just claim they framed him, like they did in 85.

Btw, I would argue that the '85 case was less about framing, and more about tunnel vision. Which unsurprising when you're dealing with a chronic offender. As for his latest conviction? Well, I re-watched the episode where he is arrested for Haibach's murder, mainly so I could focus upon him, what he was saying, body language, voice inflection, etcetera. And, I definitely think he was playing the victim card. And, I definitely think he is guilty. I also think LE may very well have planted the key and bullet. Not to frame him, rather to support the scenario from the coerced confession.

And, the sad thing is? Imho, there was plenty of physical, albeit, circumstantial evidence to have convicted him, without dragging his mentally challenged nephew into that whole morass.

 

[LemonMousse]

Yes, feel horrified at the previous false conviction, but I see no real reason to feel horrified at this new one.

Rightio.

So planted evidence, inconsistent witness testimony and questionable police behaviour is all perfectly fine with you?

See...it's not fine with me. If I wouldn't want it to happen to me or my family, then I'd have to be stunningly hypocritical to not give a stuff when it happens to someone else.

Unless we all buy into, and support, the principles of justice for everyone...then we have no such thing as justice. And that's a scary thought.

 

[JanIreland]

proof please ? for your theory to hold any ground can you explain even a little how this was pulled off please before we attack another victim in this case

 

[shadowraiths]

I won't argue with you on it, though. I can absolutely see why someone would think him guilty. What I am saying is that the impropriety in and around the criminal justice system is not ends justify the means. It's very dangerous, biased and illegitimate when things like planted evidence make the cut.

Yep. The chain of custody complications, which led to accusations of planting evidence, is arguably why OJ was acquitted.

 

[Sleuther87]

1: Haven't you? I managed to butt dial someone for over five minutes once. The phone was in my pocket, called someone.....and they had the pleasure of listening to my heels clicking for ages.

Yes, this is what I'm saying - if you butt dial someone, it's highly unlikely you're going to notice after only 10 seconds.

2: Exactly. The last call was different to the first two. That's the point. And as someone else pointed out, the *67 wouldn't necessarily get applied on last number redial.

I'm saying the last call being different than the first two means it wasn't just a butt dial or simply hitting send button, it would have to be dialed in. If the *67 automatically doesn't get applied on the last redial, then it's different, but I haven't seen any sourced info about that.

 

[LemonMousse]

proof please ? for your theory to hold any ground can you explain even a little how this was pulled off please before we attack another victim in this case

You're asking for proof - after deciding that the whole thing sounded to you like a vicious sex attack based on no proof whatsoever?