Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #3

[Jaiddie]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...erer-steven-avery-lessons-20160118-story.html

Commentary: [h=1]The lessons from 'Making a Murderer'[/h]


This is why I get so frustrated with so many getting stuck on the guilt or innocence side of things when the film-makers have said COUNTLESS times that this doc was made to show possible flaws in our justice system, and that is what should highlighted as changes ABSOLUTELY do need to be made.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...erer-steven-avery-lessons-20160118-story.html

Commentary: [h=1]The lessons from 'Making a Murderer'[/h]


This is why I get so frustrated with so many getting stuck on the guilt or innocence side of things when the film-makers have said COUNTLESS times that this doc was made to show possible flaws in our justice system, and that is what should highlighted as changes ABSOLUTELY do need to be made.

But the ultimate thing is to make sure there is justice for TH and SA. That if he is guilty he stays where he is and if he isn't he gets out.

That is the thing that matters the most. A persons life.

 

[Jaiddie]

But the ultimate thing is to make sure there is justice for TH and SA. That if he is guilty he stays where he is and if he isn't he gets out.

That is the thing that matters the most. A persons life.

So you are saying it is OK for unethical or dishonorable things to be done in seeking a conviction for a "guilty" suspect, as long as the suspect gets put away? How in the world, after Kratz's infamous news conference pertaining to BD's confession, were either of them meant to have a fair trial with a jury of their peers when the prosecution so blatantly poisoned the jury pool. And that is just the tip of the ice berg of questionable behavior that LE displayed.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Where? Not talking about the Rav4, where in that trailer or garage did they find her DNA other than the questionable key and bullet fragment?

Why is it necessary to find her DNA in the trailer or garage? Seems to me, you are fixated on that...her DNA was found on that property.

 

[Jaiddie]

Can someone link me to where it states for a fact that a VOICEMAIL was left by SA at 4:35 asking Teresa where she is? As far as I know, that was a tale made up by Kratz to say it was SA's way of trying to create an alibi.

No where that I no of...Nancy Grace has been screaming this from the rooftops and now people are taking it for fact. smh.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I think you noted your own distinction there but discarded it. OJ was responsible for their deaths as proven in the civil suit and many believe he got away with murder. People were incredulous that he didn't murder anyone else, but ended up going down for such a silly thing, in other words, deescalated the crime.

SA is the opposite. First of all, he did NOT commit the attempted rape. Secondly, his crimes appeared to escalate after his incarceration. So he went from burglar, to cat killer, to assault on the cousin....and everyone used that to be convinced that SA was guilty of the attempted rape because he fit the mold. But not only that, now they feel it shows a progression to skip right over the attempted rape and go straight to cold blooded murder. So in other words....burglar, cat killer, assault...murder. While I buy that, there is no escaping the 18 years spent in prison. What was he doing in prison? Did he behave? Was in getting into trouble? His wife left him and they he had some awful words, but accepted it. I know I'd probably have some awful words as well.

But I really don't think we can compare this to the OJ case at all. In fact, it is the polar opposite. OJ was a killer who got off and went and did something silly and stupid and got himself thrown in prison. SA was an innocent man who was imprisoned for a crime he didn't commit and did something horrific (supposedly.)

But he is alleged to have raped a teenage girl in 2004....

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

So you are saying it is OK for unethical or dishonorable things to be done in seeking a conviction for a "guilty" suspect, as long as the suspect gets put away? How in the world, after Kratz's infamous news conference pertaining to BD's confession, were either of them meant to have a fair trial with a jury of their peers when the prosecution so blatantly poisoned the jury pool. And that is just the tip of the ice berg of questionable behavior that LE displayed.

Who said that? I am saying the ultimate thing is that we find the truth and one way or another there is a finality of justice.
What they want us to believe is that this entire area, over 25 years is all corrupt. No good cops. No one who is above board. The fact that TH was found on his property, Her key in his house. That all does not matter.

 

[Deeptoad]

Why is it necessary to find her DNA in the trailer or garage? Seems to me, you are fixated on that...her DNA was found on that property.

Again. Because of the prosecution's case that she was raped in his room and killed in the garage. It is stated over and over during the trial. This is their theory and their case, yet they cannot product evidence to back it up. That is a problem and not one of fixation.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Again. Because of the prosecution's case that she was raped in his room and killed in the garage. It is stated over and over during the trial. This is their theory and their case, yet they cannot product evidence to back it up. That is a problem and not one of fixation.

What makes you think he could not dispose of the DNA evidence in the trailer and garage? After all...HE...was the one who 1st requested DNA be examined during the first case....which was inconclusive at the time because the victim and him had the same markers....it wasn't until the Innocence Project picked up the case, that they tested the public hair....and most likely at his request...I would have to think he did some studying up on DNA evidence and would have come across something on how to clean it up????

 

[Soulmagent]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...erer-steven-avery-lessons-20160118-story.html

Commentary: [h=1]The lessons from 'Making a Murderer'[/h]


This is why I get so frustrated with so many getting stuck on the guilt or innocence side of things when the film-makers have said COUNTLESS times that this doc was made to show possible flaws in our justice system, and that is what should highlighted as changes ABSOLUTELY do need to be made.

I think they might have picked the wrong case to make that point . While it is a good one to do so with , Kratz is such a slimeball ,that it appears this kind of prosecution is because of that and not in spite of it. Of course when they started they could not have known that.

The issue with the justice system and how they are allowed to prosecute is not able to be fully understood because the viewer attributes those issues to this particular prosecutor. Really Kratz is doing a normal prosecution thing ,which is why he was given an award for the case,he peers respected his work as a prosecutor . His other charges are sorta like SA's flaming cat crime in relation to the this trial, any other prosecutor would have presented this trial the same way but the viewers are not going to come to that conclusion based on this documentary.

 

[Jaiddie]

Why is it necessary to find her DNA in the trailer or garage? Seems to me, you are fixated on that...her DNA was found on that property.

Yea, I am a little fixated on that as that was the PROSECUTION'S narrative to obtain the conviction...remember the rape that was supposed to have taken place place in the trailer with her restrained in the bedroom? Yet, hmmm....none of TH DNA was found in there, not even on the "leg restraints" that were supposedly used to secure her. Originally, in the press conference he salaciously reads BD confession of tied up, raped, throat slashed (tho now he is saying no it was "just a little scratch") and no proof of any off this whatsoever. It seems none of that is not disturbing to you, but it absolutely is very disturbing to me. While past behavior and conviction's can and should be looked at in a suspect's guilt/innocence, scientific evidence is just as important, if not more so.

 

[Deeptoad]

What makes you think he could not dispose of the DNA evidence in the trailer and garage? After all...HE...was the one who 1st requested DNA be examined during the first case....which was inconclusive at the time because the victim and him had the same markers....it wasn't until the Innocence Project picked up the case, that they tested the public hair....and most likely at his request...I would have to think he did some studying up on DNA evidence and would have come across something on how to clean it up????

He would have to practically strip the walls, the carpet, destroy the bedding and clear every last nut and bolt out of his garage to rid the place of all traces of DNA. Recall, the forensic agent who testified that she contaminated her buffer test, in the lab, because she was speaking.

It's just impossible to cover all the bases. From the initial photographs of his bedroom, the bed linens where there, as was the wall and carpeting.

She was not raped in that room.

 

[Jaiddie]

Who said that? I am saying the ultimate thing is that we find the truth and one way or another there is a finality of justice.
What they want us to believe is that this entire area, over 25 years is all corrupt. No good cops. No one who is above board. The fact that TH was found on his property, Her key in his house. That all does not matter.

It all does matter. What it boils down to is that if LE had done what they told the press and everyone they were going to do, which is stay away from this investigation because of conflict of interest, then there would not be these question's today. LE chose for Lenk and Colburn to be all over that crime scene "conveniently" finding key evidence and acting shady (Colburn calling in the plates 2 days before the car was found) so it is not surprising that people are coming away from this seeing police misconduct. The sad part is if SA is guilty and manages to be freed (a very good possibility now as he is being represented by Katherine Zellner), then there is no one to be blame but LE and officials because of their tunnel-vision once again.

I don't think the TRUTH (which is NOT what the prosecution says it is) will ever be known, unfortunately, because LE messed up so much in this case. This makes me feel heart-broken for the Halbach family, in that they probably will never know what actually happened to their daughter.

 

[MysticJynx]

If the phone message he supposedly left on TH voicemail is true then it shows he had something to hide by leaving a message asking her why she didn't show up. Already he was trying to cover his tracks.

Respectfully snipped by me.

Let's talk about this 4:35pm call. This is noted on the bill seen as evidence on Teresa's bill. Of course we don't see any phone numbers but have been told this call is from Steven without using the privacy feature. This call was 13 seconds long, It was testified she did not use her phone directly since 2:41pm, and yet it was testified that they did not know if she answered the call or if had gone to voicemail. He did not leave a VM on Teresa Halbach's phone. I would also love to see his phone records. I hear it was evidence but I haven't heard much more than that. Cross reference those calls to his bill and her bill. The 2:35 call they say he made to Teresa never connected to her phone. and was not shown on the small record of her phone bill. Its been said he also used the *67 feature calling Auto Trader that morning.


Oh and as for law enforcement having opportunity to plant evidence in every case they've had search warrants on. I have to remember not every County is being sued for 36 million for previous misconduct. So they may have had opportunity in all cases warranted. Unlike Manitowoc County who not only had opportunity, they had MOTIVE. and they had Means. The hole in the top of the vial may be normal, as I have even posted. It does seem normal. It still don't explain the box and Styrofoam also being tampered with. The tape was clearly cut and resealed with scotch tape. They went into that package for that blood. Sure that hole would have been great had it not been there when they put it away. But it doesn't say that they didn't tamper with it. Could be seen as they already had the hole to stick their own needle in.

And The EDTA test matters because the rebuttal witness she tells you that what the FBI didn't include in the written report is that he tested the blood in the vial 2 times. One time using 1 microliter which yielded evidence of EDTA in that blood from the vial. He also tested the blood with 2 microliters of the same vial blood and it did not find EDTA. This makes the test 50/50. The FBI admits to only testing 3 of 6 swabs. 50/50. When something is 50/50 you have to say that its inconclusive either way. I did not trust the FBI guy at all. Not to mention he did not test the blood as the blood was found in the car from that vial. As to say, he did not take the blood from the vial and expose it to the elements that were equal to Teresa's Car. This very well could weaken a preservative that was meant to keep wet blood wet. What happens to this when its dried out exposed to sunlight etc... I would like to know if they have continued Testing EDTA since this trial. Seems they only did this test twice. Once 10 years prior to 2005 and again in 2005. 10 years later have they continued to develop this test. Cause remember it was NEWLY developed in 2005 after it wasn't in use for a decade. this science is faulty to me.

And the documentary does show that there was evidence that was not submitted into the court as evidence for the Jury. That is the Deleted messages of Nov 2 at 8am. Who accessed her account and what did they delete? Why Does KK say that they did not investigate this lead in court. Why does he not answer the judge if he knows who deleted the mails. He argues that the defense is implying she was still alive. However I see it as it was supposed to be seen by the jurors and did not. They had this lead and did not follow up on that? That alone bothers me. It was ok to introduce evidence of her Family accessing her accounts after she was murdered but not ok for them to introduce someone else also has.

They should have backed off and allowed Calumet do the investigating instead of the babysitting.

 

[GigiG]

No you can't and I am not saying they should but for me I am not finding someone guilty. I am looking at the evidence now and seeing if I believe he is guilty or innocence. I get to look at it all and see it from the broader context.
Isn't that the point of this?? To judge if he is innocent or guilty?

He murdered a cat in an heinous way. It just so happens he killed TH and put here in a bonfire too. That is not coincidence in my book. It is progression.

The problem is that sometimes people want to be obtuse to the facts because it makes a better story.

BBM

The point of the trial was to decide if he was guilty of Halbach's murder. The point of the documentary is whether or not the trial(s) were fair; which would mean measures were taken to ensure the presumption of innocence, proper vetting and collection of evidence, and proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

The questionable evidence (and the fact that it was "discovered" by Manitowoc officers) should raise the spectre of reasonable doubt.

Kratz' ill-conceived press conference (pre-trial) meant virtually the entire jury pool was tainted beforehand, so true presumption of innocence would have been almost impossible.

The series does not address the subject of guilt or innocence, but rather shines a spotlight on LE investigation techniques and tactics, and the integrity of the legal system. Many people have blind faith in these institutions, and MaM revealed some very real systemic problems.

ETA

It's easy enough to be dismissive of those who are truly guilty, but the Kafkaesque scenarios that play out in MaM should at least lead one to give serious thought as to the frightening plight of those who are wrongly accused.

JMO

 

[Sustained]

Just watched Ryan Hillegas' court testimony again from the Netflix show. He claims not to have met Pam Sturm until the Saturday morning she was about to search the Avery property. I find it very strange that Hillegas dated Teresa Halbach for 5 years and never met Pam Sturm, Teresa's cousin ????

 

[BigCityAccountant]

He would have to practically strip the walls, the carpet, destroy the bedding and clear every last nut and bolt out of his garage to rid the place of all traces of DNA. Recall, the forensic agent who testified that she contaminated her buffer test, in the lab, because she was speaking.

It's just impossible to cover all the bases. From the initial photographs of his bedroom, the bed linens where there, as was the wall and carpeting.

She was not raped in that room.

But did you ever think it was possible he did somewhere else on that property? In one of his interviews, he talks about a mattress on the property (in a vehicle I believe) that he used to play on as a kid...

 

[Deeptoad]

But did you ever think it was possible he did somewhere else on that property? In one of his interviews, he talks about a mattress on the property (in a vehicle I believe) that he used to play on as a kid...

Sure, it's possible. It's possible someone else did. It's possible that physical evidence on that multi-acre property could get honestly overlooked. But, the prosecution made the case that she was cuffed to his bed, naked and was brutally raped there, before being shot multiple times and killed in his garage. They do not have the evidence to support this and that is why - irrespective of Avery's innocence or guilt, I think he was a made man from the onset.

 

[Jaiddie]

Respectfully snipped by me.

Let's talk about this 4:35pm call. This is noted on the bill seen as evidence on Teresa's bill. Of course we don't see any phone numbers but have been told this call is from Steven without using the privacy feature. This call was 13 seconds long, It was testified she did not use her phone directly since 2:41pm, and yet it was testified that they did not know if she answered the call or if had gone to voicemail. He did not leave a VM on Teresa Halbach's phone. I would also love to see his phone records. I hear it was evidence but I haven't heard much more than that. Cross reference those calls to his bill and her bill. The 2:35 call they say he made to Teresa never connected to her phone. and was not shown on the small record of her phone bill. Its been said he also used the *67 feature calling Auto Trader that morning.


Oh and as for law enforcement having opportunity to plant evidence in every case they've had search warrants on. I have to remember not every County is being sued for 36 million for previous misconduct. So they may have had opportunity in all cases warranted. Unlike Manitowoc County who not only had opportunity, they had MOTIVE. and they had Means. The hole in the top of the vial may be normal, as I have even posted. It does seem normal. It still don't explain the box and Styrofoam also being tampered with. The tape was clearly cut and resealed with scotch tape. They went into that package for that blood. Sure that hole would have been great had it not been there when they put it away. But it doesn't say that they didn't tamper with it. Could be seen as they already had the hole to stick their own needle in.

And The EDTA test matters because the rebuttal witness she tells you that what the FBI didn't include in the written report is that he tested the blood in the vial 2 times. One time using 1 microliter which yielded evidence of EDTA in that blood from the vial. He also tested the blood with 2 microliters of the same vial blood and it did not find EDTA. This makes the test 50/50. The FBI admits to only testing 3 of 6 swabs. 50/50. When something is 50/50 you have to say that its inconclusive either way. I did not trust the FBI guy at all. Not to mention he did not test the blood as the blood was found in the car from that vial. As to say, he did not take the blood from the vial and expose it to the elements that were equal to Teresa's Car. This very well could weaken a preservative that was meant to keep wet blood wet. What happens to this when its dried out exposed to sunlight etc... I would like to know if they have continued Testing EDTA since this trial. Seems they only did this test twice. Once 10 years prior to 2005 and again in 2005. 10 years later have they continued to develop this test. Cause remember it was NEWLY developed in 2005 after it wasn't in use for a decade. this science is faulty to me.

And the documentary does show that there was evidence that was not submitted into the court as evidence for the Jury. That is the Deleted messages of Nov 2 at 8am. Who accessed her account and what did they delete? Why Does KK say that they did not investigate this lead in court. Why does he not answer the judge if he knows who deleted the mails. He argues that the defense is implying she was still alive. However I see it as it was supposed to be seen by the jurors and did not. They had this lead and did not follow up on that? That alone bothers me. It was ok to introduce evidence of her Family accessing her accounts after she was murdered but not ok for them to introduce someone else also has.

They should have backed off and allowed Calumet do the investigating instead of the babysitting.

Thank you! That is exactly what I have been trying to say. There was soooooooo much done wrong in this investigation, that I do not believe we will ever find out what truly happened to her.

 

[Tawny]

But did you ever think it was possible he did somewhere else on that property? In one of his interviews, he talks about a mattress on the property (in a vehicle I believe) that he used to play on as a kid...

That's the entire point of the series. We have no idea what really happened and likely never will without a true confession from whoever did it because LE made up a tale of gruesome horror and crammed every square peg into that round hole they could. And all the other investigators and prosecutors were like "*shrug* welp, sounds good to me" and couldn't be bothered to question anything. No one cared enough to step up and say "Yo, Colborn and Lenk should NOT be on that property". They all either trusted one another explicitly or didn't care enough about REAL justice to speak up.