Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #3

[pleasestandby]

I haven't followed the case that closely--but--I'm not sure if you are talking about Calumet Wisconsin or Calumet Michigan. If it was Calumet Michigan, I don't think they listen to the news from Green Bay--probably from Marquette, MI. In that case, I would guess he did in fact receive a fair trail. I'm not so sure about Calumet WI. It is in Fond Du Lac County. Why did they bring Manitowoc jurors to Fond Du Lac--that makes no sense. I think Fond Du Lac has their own TV stations--but I think Green Bay stations as well.

Calumet County, Wisconsin

https://goo.gl/maps/ssqa78rAYQ82

Manitowoc County, WI

https://goo.gl/maps/AtPdcCPdbtG2

Both counties border each other.

 

[Madeleine74]

Was Scott Tadych ever charged with obstructing an officer or for perjury in court since his story changed from being there at the time of the disappearance to not getting home until after the disappearance? If Bobby Dassey left at 2:45 pm, how ever could Scott Tadych have passed him up whether he got a 15 minute head start or a half hour head start? Was Bobby Dassey walking on the side of the road or in a vehicle?

Is it considered perjury if a witness revises their time estimates due to a different memory or possibly becoming aware of the time of other events, putting their original estimates in some question in their own mind? Any witness is open to being impeached on the witness stand by their prior statements; I would assume any semi-decent attorney would confront a witness with conflicting statements. One person suggested the time change that occurred (back to Standard time) on Oct 30, 2005 could have created some confusion.

 

[curioser]

Just saw this in a press release from the prosecutor's office for another case (Brendan Creato):

“we cannot make statements outside of the courtroom that may prejudice the defendant’s right to a fair trial, therefore we will not be releasing further information nor making additional comments”

And it struck me as an example of what was not done in this case. They might have had a much easier time finding fair jurors if Kratz hadn't broadcast that narrative for the world to hear.

 

[Tawny]

Just saw this in a press release from the prosecutor's office for another case (Brendan Creato):

“we cannot make statements outside of the courtroom that may prejudice the defendant’s right to a fair trial, therefore we will not be releasing further information nor making additional comments”

And it struck me as an example of what was not done in this case. They might have had a much easier time finding fair jurors if Kratz hadn't broadcast that narrative for the world to hear.

I agree 100%.

 

[mcwhit]

In the State of Wisconsin vs. Steven A. Avery #122987, what does "Defendant's Motion to Assure Fair Forensic Testing" (03-07-2006) mean exactly? Meaning, why would fair forensic testing need a motion? I've tried googling without much luck.

 

[MysticJynx]

I'm sorry I have to go back to the time line. When exactly did the Zipperer's get their visit from Teresa Halbach on Oct 31 2005? I read some places that Teresa was at this residence prior to Avery's. But with the timeline the state gives for when she was at Avery's makes no sense to me then. It was also stated that the employee who talked to Teresa that day from 2:27 to 2:32pm, said teresa mentioned, that she was 10 minutes out from the Avery Salvage Yard. Did she say Avery's or just to her next client. Again when did she stop and see this other location in Northern Manitowoc. Does anyone here live in Wisconsin that would be willing to do a drive test? I would like to know the time it takes to get from New Holstein to The Steven Avery Yard. If she did in fact go to the Avery Yard at said time. Then there is no way he was the last to see her alive. It would have been the Zipperer's. In which they stated that Teresa was there between 2 and 2:30 that day. Note this is the time she would have been driving to get to either residence in Manitowoc. From Google maps it says that to Avery's it would be approximately 50 minutes. Had she left the other clients in New Holstien at about 1:40 according to his testimony. She would have just been arriving at either place about 2:30pm. She could not be at the Avery's and Zipperer's at the same time.

Need some better timeline posts. More specific.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Calumet County, Wisconsin

https://goo.gl/maps/ssqa78rAYQ82

Manitowoc County, WI

https://goo.gl/maps/AtPdcCPdbtG2

Both counties border each other.

Ok, thanks for the clarification....I know there is a city in Fond Du Lac County named Calumet. I've been up and down I43 and I41 a million times and didn't ever realize there was a county between Fond Du Lac County/Sheboygan County/ and Manitowoc County. Manitowoc has a submarine from WWII that you can visit, I've taken the tour which is pretty cool. .

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Does anyone here live in Wisconsin that would be willing to do a drive test? I would like to know the time it takes to get from New Holstein to The Steven Avery Yard. From Google maps it says that to Avery's it would be approximately 50 minutes.

I'm sure she would have taken the back roads, I would cut the time about 15-20 minutes using the back roads. It is about 35 miles from New Holsten to Two Rivers. You can easily travel 70 on the back roads up there. I'm more familiar with further north from there, I have family further north although my grandmother was born in Two Rivers.

 

[MaxManning]

These are my exact feelings. In the film, when Colburn was being questioned, you can visibly see where they had cut the film and put in something else to make it look like he is some type of monster. This, to me, was something that I just couldn't handle. If someone wants to present the actual truth, why do you have to HIDE certain things? It was obvious to me what they were trying to do.

I also just couldn't put aside his past behavior. I'm sorry, but a person who can do something like he did to an innocent animal, could easily do that to another human being. As well, I saw an interview with the rape victim, Penny Beerntsen, after the fact and after SA had spent many years in prison. He had the nerve to call her and ask her to buy him a house. She didn't, of course. But, the thing that shocked me the most is that she said (I can't remember her exact words and I also can't find the interview again), that she never could get over the bad feeling she had whenever she saw Steven or was in a room with him. She said that Gregory Allen, (the man who was eventually convicted of the rape), could come into a room and sit next to her and it wouldn't phase her. That, to me, was very telling. Perhaps they should re-do the original DNA from this original case.

Not saying I doubt this interview exists, but I do want to see it. Only thing I have seen is her embracing him after the conviction was overturned.

It makes me uncomfortable though for people to trust DNA that he is guilty, yet not trust it if he is innocent. I get what you are saying, but hard to see it as anything but bias. Nothing wrong with that, people have gut feelings. But I don't think the legal system is meant to be based on gut feelings. If my life was on the line for something I knew I didn't do, I'd rather have a juror with an open mind than someone prone to gut feelings eliminating logical reasoning.

I would think that if someone got raped by someone with blond hair and a beard, they might likely have PTSD triggered by someone matching that profile. I wouldn't use that to form my own personal opinions of people with blond hair and beards.

But I do hear you about the past behavior. I am one who weighs that as more significant than some users who have to some degree minimized it's significance in regards to evaluating what kind of person he is imo

 

[BigCityAccountant]

And left handlers out there who do this, or do you typically use your right hand for putting the keys in?

Lefties generally use their right hand for putting keys in ignition..at least I do. I wouldn't get hung up on this though, my hubby is a very large and tall guy...if I get in his car, I grab the steering wheel first on the right side and pull the seat up. Same for when he gets in my car and its a little too short for him, he grabs the steering wheel before he pushes the seat back to drive it.

 

[MaxManning]

In the State of Wisconsin vs. Steven A. Avery #122987, what does "Defendant's Motion to Assure Fair Forensic Testing" (03-07-2006) mean exactly? Meaning, why would fair forensic testing need a motion? I've tried googling without much luck.

I did hear Strang mention that the EDTA testing was unfair, because it wasn't conclusive and also because the prosecution was able to do their tests, but defense was not able to do the same. But I have not seen that motion before.

 

[missy1974]

I also just couldn't put aside his past behavior. I'm sorry, but a person who can do something like he did to an innocent animal, could easily do that to another human being. As well, I saw an interview with the rape victim, Penny Beerntsen, after the fact and after SA had spent many years in prison. He had the nerve to call her and ask her to buy him a house. She didn't, of course. But, the thing that shocked me the most is that she said (I can't remember her exact words and I also can't find the interview again), that she never could get over the bad feeling she had whenever she saw Steven or was in a room with him. She said that Gregory Allen, (the man who was eventually convicted of the rape), could come into a room and sit next to her and it wouldn't phase her. That, to me, was very telling. Perhaps they should re-do the original DNA from this original case.

I do remember reading or seeing this about Penny, I don't even know where to begin to look for it again lol

My theory about that is, it's all psychological. From the moment she was in the hospital and someone took her statement (a country clerk who was a friend of hers I believe), it was said to her "that sounds like Steven Avery". They drew a picture of Steven Avery... they threw him at her at every turn. I don't blame her for feeling that way.

Your last sentence... he was exonerated. Even compensated. I know you are not the only one that believes this, I have been reading so much. I have found, that the anyone that still believes he raped Penny, also 100% believes he is guilty of this murder and is unwilling to even consider he didn't. Which makes question even further how fair this murder trial was.

Although I don't agree with you, I commend you for stating your opinion, and helps me to understand your opinions more, that's why I love websleuths ;-)

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Re: Penny Beerntsen interview about Netflix MaM program and her interaction with SA -

'A few months after I met Steve, he left a message for me. So I called him and he was kind of beating around the bush. He was telling me how he didn’t have any money and he couldn’t get a job and he was living on his parent’s property and it wasn’t going well and he wanted to get his own place to live and it would really be nice to have a house,' said Berrntsen.

'I finally came out and said, “Steve, are you asking me to buy you a house?” And he said yes. I said, “That’s not possible. We probably should not be talking to each other. I will be deposed in your civil suit.”
'He was cordial, he wasn’t abusive or anything. It was just clear he wanted money from me.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...es-murdered-Teresa-Halbach.html#ixzz3wz9O8orN

It's clear SA wanted money/reparation from PB but he obviously didn't understand the process. PB though, was not part of a frame up, she's the victim of sexual assault and police manipulation which was out of her control, she owes SA nothing, imo.

I am still on the fence about SA's guilt or innocence in TH's death, but if money was his motivation to keep going, why commit a murder on or near his property?
Why choose to murder TH, who was on record to be visiting his premises? If it was a spur of the moment crime, I believe it is possible, but planned in advance, I'm not convinced.

 

[Madeleine74]

Crime of opportunity is not uncommon. Maybe he had a fantasy about TH and thought he could make a move on her and she would agree. Then she turned him down and he did all that he did. He didn't have to necessarily pre-plan to attack then kill her for it to have happened.

 

[missy1974]

I think this is the article I read about Penny and how she felt about Steve. It's a good read. She even admits to having small doubts over the years.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/...ium=email&utm_term=makingamurderer#.RT1dzjEic

I saw a therapist after the assault, and then after the exoneration, I saw a therapist again. I said to my second therapist, “I’ve seen a picture of Gregory Allen and he doesn’t look real to me. I would swear I’ve never seen him before in my life. I look at his picture, I can’t feel angry, I think he could walk in the room and my blood pressure wouldn’t even go up. I still see Steven Avery as my assailant even though I understand he wasn’t.” Her response was, “You will never be able to attach the emotions that you felt at the time of the assault or in the ensuing years to Gregory Allen. What you need to work on is removing those feelings from Steven Avery.”

 

[Tawny]

These are my exact feelings. In the film, when Colburn was being questioned, you can visibly see where they had cut the film and put in something else to make it look like he is some type of monster. This, to me, was something that I just couldn't handle. If someone wants to present the actual truth, why do you have to HIDE certain things? It was obvious to me what they were trying to do.

I also just couldn't put aside his past behavior. I'm sorry, but a person who can do something like he did to an innocent animal, could easily do that to another human being. As well, I saw an interview with the rape victim, Penny Beerntsen, after the fact and after SA had spent many years in prison. He had the nerve to call her and ask her to buy him a house. She didn't, of course. But, the thing that shocked me the most is that she said (I can't remember her exact words and I also can't find the interview again), that she never could get over the bad feeling she had whenever she saw Steven or was in a room with him. She said that Gregory Allen, (the man who was eventually convicted of the rape), could come into a room and sit next to her and it wouldn't phase her. That, to me, was very telling. Perhaps they should re-do the original DNA from this original case.

She was hand fed a sketch of his face and told it was him when she was at her MOST vulnerable, most frightened, and most impressionable. You cannot pin that on Steven Avery and to be honest, I'm really flabbergasted you would suggest they go back again and reevaluate the DNA that exonerated him???

 

[MysticJynx]

I'm sure she would have taken the back roads, I would cut the time about 15-20 minutes using the back roads. It is about 35 miles from New Holsten to Two Rivers. You can easily travel 70 on the back roads up there. I'm more familiar with further north from there, I have family further north although my grandmother was born in Two Rivers.

How can you be so sure that Teresa would take back roads and not the highways? And what reason do we have to believe that she would drive 70 miles per hour. What is the speed limit down there on the back roads? If this is speeding why would she risk a ticket for a couple of jobs? Well I will definitely take this into consideration as I go back through the time line. Google does show 3 routes all taking 45-55mins. Do these same back roads go to the other Manitowoc residence?

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/443...7be2e2aa609f974!2m2!1d-88.122485!2d43.9207541


https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Cou...xcea42951e335e77!2m2!1d-87.692513!2d44.253025


Even speeding half the time would be closer to 20-25 mins possible 30mins. I still don't know I would have to do all those drives to be certain. at around 140-145pm on a Monday afternoon. She would have had to have been done at the Zipperer's Resident if she was out to steves by 2:27pm. I would also like to know how long an appointment would last for one of these photo shoots. Does it only take ten mins to arrive, greet, direct to car, take pictures (how many and of what), get paid, give a bill of sale plus a magazine and leave. Did the other two clients, say where and how she gave them their bill of sales? Did she enter their residence at all? I would think an appointment would take a lil longer than 10 mins. I just dont know.

I don't know. I still cant grasp exact timeline. But is there any real way of knowing what way she drove that 36 miles or so.

I would need at least 4 cars for each resident to make these drives. lol one for each route shown on the maps. and this mysterious back way in that is faster than the the routes shown on google.

Remember they did that in his first investigation into the Beernsten case. They made the drive to Greenbay and didnt take into account the kids and babies he had with him, the stuff he walked around the store to get and SPEEDING, just to prove it was Avery who committed that crime he did not.

 

[norest4thewicked]

Not saying I doubt this interview exists, but I do want to see it. Only thing I have seen is her embracing him after the conviction was overturned.

It makes me uncomfortable though for people to trust DNA that he is guilty, yet not trust it if he is innocent. I get what you are saying, but hard to see it as anything but bias. Nothing wrong with that, people have gut feelings. But I don't think the legal system is meant to be based on gut feelings. If my life was on the line for something I knew I didn't do, I'd rather have a juror with an open mind than someone prone to gut feelings eliminating logical reasoning.

I would think that if someone got raped by someone with blond hair and a beard, they might likely have PTSD triggered by someone matching that profile. I wouldn't use that to form my own personal opinions of people with blond hair and beards.

But I do hear you about the past behavior. I am one who weighs that as more significant than some users who have to some degree minimized it's significance in regards to evaluating what kind of person he is imo

Here is the excerpt that I was speaking of. I read it quickly last night and couldn't remember exactly what she was saying, but here ya go:

A few months after I met Steve, he left a message for me. So I called him and he was kind of beating around the bush. He was telling me how he didn’t have any money and he couldn’t get a job and he was living on his parent’s property and it wasn’t going well and he wanted to get his own place to live and it would really be nice to have a house. I finally came out and said, “Steve, are you asking me to buy you a house?” And he said yes. I said, “That’s not possible. We probably should not be talking to each other. I will be deposed in your civil suit.” He was cordial, he wasn’t abusive or anything. It was just clear he wanted money from me. I called job services and passed that along to his attorney, but I don’t know if he ever followed up with them.

I saw a therapist after the assault, and then after the exoneration, I saw a therapist again. I said to my second therapist, “I’ve seen a picture of Gregory Allen and he doesn’t look real to me. I would swear I’ve never seen him before in my life. I look at his picture, I can’t feel angry, I think he could walk in the room and my blood pressure wouldn’t even go up. I still see Steven Avery as my assailant even though I understand he wasn’t.”

Her response was, “You will never be able to attach the emotions that you felt at the time of the assault or in the ensuing years to Gregory Allen. What you need to work on is removing those feelings from Steven Avery.”

Then I get a call that a young woman has gone missing and that the last place she was seen was on Steven Avery’s property. So my emotions regarding Steven Avery are complicated.

I'm sure that she has feelings that ARE very complicated, especially now.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/...ium=email&utm_term=makingamurderer#.cTMBG9CBo

 

[dexter75]

You and me BOTH!!!
ABSURD!!!

She was hand fed a sketch of his face and told it was him when she was at her MOST vulnerable, most frightened, and most impressionable. You cannot pin that on Steven Avery and to be honest, I'm really flabbergasted you would suggest they go back again and reevaluate the DNA that exonerated him???

 

[eve314]

These are my exact feelings. In the film, when Colburn was being questioned, you can visibly see where they had cut the film and put in something else to make it look like he is some type of monster. This, to me, was something that I just couldn't handle. If someone wants to present the actual truth, why do you have to HIDE certain things? It was obvious to me what they were trying to do.

I also just couldn't put aside his past behavior. I'm sorry, but a person who can do something like he did to an innocent animal, could easily do that to another human being. As well, I saw an interview with the rape victim, Penny Beerntsen, after the fact and after SA had spent many years in prison. He had the nerve to call her and ask her to buy him a house. She didn't, of course. But, the thing that shocked me the most is that she said (I can't remember her exact words and I also can't find the interview again), that she never could get over the bad feeling she had whenever she saw Steven or was in a room with him. She said that Gregory Allen, (the man who was eventually convicted of the rape), could come into a room and sit next to her and it wouldn't phase her. That, to me, was very telling. Perhaps they should re-do the original DNA from this original case.

There is no "TRUTH" in this case, that is the irony. Let me put it this way, people have aired grievances over the 'biased' presentation of the film, yet these same people do not seem as enraged or outraged by the biased construction of a murderer produced by the Prosecution - however, it cuts both ways. Which is the greater 'evil'? I do not think the film makers want to 'omit' or play down these facts to construct SA's 'innocence' those examples were incessantly and predominantly used to produce the 'Steven Avery is Guilty' narrative.

My reading of this was/is the following - SA's background, history of criminal activity and behaviour is what is should be - IRRELEVANT in the first instance - where was the Presumption of Innocence here?

On the matter of Penny Bernsteen - her opinion does not matter at all. She put the wrong man in jail for 18 years and SA in her own admission was not predatory or aggressive, he asked her for a house - the guy has an average IQ of 70, he may have aspergers, he may have been stressed, depressed and desperate. Who knows, what his mental state could have been. Her 'heebie-jeebies' for SA should be kept to herself, not presented in Interviews which has grave implications for a man she has already sent to jail once. Her feelings towards SA are misguided as her therapists asserts. She can valorise her actual rapist and comment about how he does not make her feel as bad as SA (if this is true), and to that my response is Ted Bundy?