Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery

[blastfemur]

And what an awesome nickname !

Thanks for the welcome!

The information about the tarp is interesting. Definitely adds another wrinkle to this mess. Almost seems like that could have been intentional when lumped in with all the other stuff that was neglected.

 

[Tawny]

I have got to finish the series so I can catch up with this thread!! (I literally clicked the link to the last post and quickly scrolled down so I could post this without reading spoilers LOL!!!)

 

[SCHMAE]

I am saying it is possible that the state lab had a set of burnt bones somewhere. The large Cottonwood fire was a huge deal in 2005 in WI . It inspired me to think about other options for the bonefire bones in light of the Key being planted (which I think it pretty proven in court) The cottonwood fire has little to do it this case other than ,if people were searching for remains they would have looked a lot like what was in the box of bones.No reports of deaths from that fire I have found.

We don't have all the evidence reports or anything but we know money is a motive for crime and 35 million is huge to pretty much the state and that there were corrupt people working in this investigation so I am not limiting my thinking oh a feeling that it is crazy to think LE in this case would be above this.

How do we know that was even Teresa's actual key ? You could go to the dealership and get extra keys and that would explain why her DNA is nowhere on the key . Also, I found it a little bit odd that it was just her key on one plain strap. I mean yes that can happen, but most folks, especially female, have a few things dangling off the keychain as well. That is what got me to thinking that key could have come from the dealership. **speculative**

 

[blastfemur]

How do we know that was even Teresa's actual key ?

I believe the other half of that lanyard was found in the car, and TH's sister testified that this was the key TH would have been carrying at the time.

 

[Soulmagent]

I have thought about this in other cases. You find a bone fragment in a fire or in a grave and then a " DNA LAB" hired by LE or working in contract with LE is giving you a result. So, if this was all planted evidence, there is no reason to think those bones didn't come from an evidence lab from some other person dead years earlier. But if you are saying they planted the bones, where is Teresa ?

I am saying I dont know if they did but they could have.

I wouldn't know where TH was but if you consider theory 5 on this link.
http://fusion.net/story/249427/netflix-making-a-murderer-what-happened-theories/
And considering her Brother looking suspect according to peoples opinion along with the Ex BF . Witness protection seems a tiny bit plausible. All this is speculation

 

[stephsb]

I am saying it is possible that the state lab had a set of burnt bones somewhere. The large Cottonwood fire was a huge deal in 2005 in WI . It inspired me to think about other options for the bonefire bones in light of the Key being planted (which I think it pretty proven in court) The cottonwood fire has little to do it this case other than ,if people were searching for remains they would have looked a lot like what was in the box of bones.No reports of deaths from that fire I have found.

We don't have all the evidence reports or anything but we know money is a motive for crime and 35 million is huge to pretty much the state and that there were corrupt people working in this investigation so I am not limiting my thinking on a feeling that it is crazy to think LE in this case would be above this.

AFAIK, there were no deaths reported in the Cottonwood fire because there were no deaths. If someone had died and there were bones in a lab, why would that not be released to the public to get a positive ID, and if a person burned in the fire and was never identified, why wouldnt they be listed as a missing person? This fire happened over 5 months before Teresa's bones were found in the burn pit on Avery's property. No one at the State Crime Lab was named in Avery's lawsuit, why would they allow charred bones no one else knows about to be planted in the Avery's fire pit? And where is Teresa? And most importantly, WHY was it reported there were no deaths, when there actually was? Because the Adams County investigators knew Manitowoc County investigators were trying to frame Avery? This just is way too far-fetched, JMO. Her bones were identified w. dental records. That is good enough for me, and appears to have been good enough for the defense as well. I'll entertain moving the bones from a different burn site to frame Avery, but not that the bones are not Teresa's until there is solid evidence of that.

 

[Soulmagent]

AFAIK, there were no deaths reported in the Cottonwood fire because there were no deaths. If someone had died and there were bones in a lab, why would that not be released to the public to get a positive ID, and if a person burned in the fire and was never identified, why wouldnt they be listed as a missing person? This fire happened over 5 months before Teresa's bones were found in the burn pit on Avery's property. No one at the State Crime Lab was named in Avery's lawsuit, why would they allow charred bones no one else knows about to be planted in the Avery's fire pit? And where is Teresa? And most importantly, WHY was it reported there were no deaths, when there actually was? Because the Adams County investigators knew Manitowoc County investigators were trying to frame Avery? This just is way too far-fetched, JMO. Her bones were identified w. dental records. That is good enough for me, and appears to have been good enough for the defense as well. I'll entertain moving the bones from a different burn site to frame Avery, but not that the bones are not Teresa's until there is solid evidence of that.

They didnt have to die in Cottonwood. Any fire. They dont have to be from a missing person either.

I am admitting I was speculating. The cotton wood fire is what got me thinking about fire investigations and such.

Like one in which a body was shot ,and the house set on fire and police know who and how and convicted someone maybe on a plea for that crime already and now they are recycling evidence .

 

[stephsb]

I am saying I dont know if they did but they could have.

I wouldn't know where TH was but if you consider theory 5 on this link.
http://fusion.net/story/249427/netflix-making-a-murderer-what-happened-theories/
And considering her Brother looking suspect according to peoples opinion along with the Ex BF . Witness protection seems a tiny bit plausible. All this is speculation

Witness protection is only used for someone who is testifying as a witness in a trial. AFAIK, and I followed the case in real time (I am local, grew up in Sheboygan County) there has been no mention about Teresa being a witness in any trial. Furthermore, she Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey would not have been prosecuted for her death, because the FBI would have been able to inform Wisconsin investigators Teresa was in witness protection w.o compromising her whereabouts and new identity. Witness Protection is for the sole purpose of relocating and protecting a trial witness, it does not fake their death and frame 2 innocent people for it.

 

[stephsb]

They didnt have to die in Cottonwood. Any fire. They dont have to be from a missing person either.

I admitting I was speculating. The cotton wood fire is what got me thinking about fire investigations and such.

Like one in which a body was shot ,and the house set on fire and police know who and how and convicted someone maybe on a plea for that crime already and now they are recycling evidence .

I know you're speculating, I am just trying to show why I think these theories aren't plausible. If this happened like the case you laid out (body shot, house set on fire, police know who and how convicted) the evidence would be in the evidence file for that specific case and county, and if they are bones of the victim, they would be cremated or buried on the families wishes once the State was done using them, as I'm sure Teresa's remains have been given a proper burial as well. I respectfully disagree that this was an incident of recycling evidence

 

[Soulmagent]

Witness protection is only used for someone who is testifying as a witness in a trial. AFAIK, and I followed the case in real time (I am local, grew up in Sheboygan County) there has been no mention about Teresa being a witness in any trial. Furthermore, she Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey would not have been prosecuted for her death, because the FBI would have been able to inform Wisconsin investigators Teresa was in witness protection w.o compromising her whereabouts and new identity. Witness Protection is for the sole purpose of relocating and protecting a trial witness, it does not fake their death and frame 2 innocent people for it.

I dont know what all the purposes are for witness protection ,but I am sure there are other purposes.

Also if you followed the case in real time ,you should be keenly aware of how the media was used as a tool to spread out lies that Katz was presenting.

 

[Soulmagent]

I know you're speculating, I am just trying to show why I think these theories aren't plausible. If this happened like the case you laid out (body shot, house set on fire, police know who and how convicted) the evidence would be in the evidence file for that specific case and county, and if they are bones of the victim, they would be cremated or buried on the families wishes once the State was done using them, as I'm sure Teresa's remains have been given a proper burial as well. I respectfully disagree that this was an incident of recycling evidence

I understand your position and really neither of us could prove or disprove the theory without a broader knowledge base on many factors.

Such as are we sure bones wouldn't be stored say at the ME office? or at a school where they train fire investigators?
I respect your choice not to consider it.

 

[stephsb]

If you can find other uses for Witness Protection, I stand corrected. A simple google search will explain to you the purpose of witness protection- to protect witnesses. To think that the FBI is going to allow a woman to be placed in witness protection (for what purpose exactly?) and let two innocent men be convicted of the crime, one a 16 year old minor, and say NOTHING, is absolutely ludicrous.

I never said Kratz did not manipulate the media. His press conference after Brendan's confession was particularly vomit inducing. I am not defending Kratz, I have said I myself do not feel I could have convicted Avery, but to suggest watching a documentary sanctioned by the defense is substitute for following the testimony of a 5 week trial, which was covered in real time EXTENSIVELY, and reading the trial transcripts and statements from Dassey's trial (as well as following it in real time), then I have to disagree, and I have worked for a defense firm.

 

[Soulmagent]

If you can find other uses for Witness Protection, I stand corrected. A simple google search will explain to you the purpose of witness protection- to protect witnesses. To think that the FBI is going to allow a woman to be placed in witness protection (for what purpose exactly?) and let two innocent men be convicted of the crime, one a 16 year old minor, and say NOTHING, is absolutely ludicrous.

I never said Kratz did not manipulate the media. His press conference after Brendan's confession was particularly vomit inducing. I am not defending Kratz, I have said I myself do not feel I could have convicted Avery, but to suggest watching a documentary sanctioned by the defense is substitute for following the testimony of a 5 week trial, which was covered in real time EXTENSIVELY, and reading the trial transcripts and statements from Dassey's trial (as well as following it in real time), then I have to disagree, and I have worked for a defense firm.

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/defendants-rights/what-witness-protection-program

In addition to the federal WITSEC program, some states offer witness protection services. For example, California’s Witness Relocation and Assistance Program (CalWRAP) provides protection to witnesses in any case where they might be in danger. State programs like California’s often provide protective services when a witness does not otherwise qualify for the federal program.

For example, in a domestic violence case brought in a state court, the witness may be a former romantic partner of the accused. If the accused threatens or endangers the witness, that witness typically won't qualify for the federal WITSEC program because the case is in a state court, even though he or she is in danger. In such cases, the witness could be provided protective services from the state witness protection program.

I never mentioned anything FBI.

 

[gittlebass]

All of this I agree to and have said in prior posts, other than that they framed him by luck. They didn't frame him by luck, I believe they planted certain pieces of evidence on purpose to help get a conviction against Steven that they knew would stick.

I agree that the burning the cat is f'ed up, it's also part of the FBI's Homicidal triad, along w. arson. He was someone who had been falsely convicted, and that is terrible, but that doesn't erase all of the other felonious behavior he was involved in, both before and after his acquital. I have seen no evidence that he was trying to turn his life around after his acquital- he was once again a felon in possession of a firearm and he was being charged w. disorderly conduct and getting emergency restraining orders taken out against him.

As for the $36 million, as someone who has interned at a firm that does civil litigation, the plaintiffs rarely get the amount of money they ask for. He eventually settled for 400,000, which is not too bad considering what other exonerees around the country have received- John Thompson in LA was framed not once, but twice, by Orleans Parish for an attempted murder and murder he didnt commit, and served nearly 20 years on LA's Death Row. He fought his case all the way to the US Supreme Court, where the landmark case of Connick v. Thompson decided that Orleans Parish did not have to pay Thompson anything for his false imprisonment because there was no "pattern of misconduct". Even though I don't believe he would have received 36mil, he would have likely got a payout, and so the motive for Manitowoc County to frame him still exists. As I said, I believe they planted certain pieces of evidence- without a doubt, the key (at least IMO).

I completely agree that they had no DNA evidence other than the bullet, which I think could have been planted. I don't believe her throat was slit, that is indisputable. If she was stabbed or shot, it wasn't in the garage or the bedroom, the two places Brendan said it occured. I read all 400 some pages of Brendan's statements to police, and most of his trial transcripts, and believe 100 percent he is not involved in the murder and it didnt happen at all how he said it did. That doesn't mean it didnt happen. Same goes for sexual assault. No evidence doesn't mean it didnt happen- it just means it didn't happen where they said it did. There were cadaver dog hits on that property, and her bone fragments were found burned in Avery's burn pit, and positively identified as hers. If Avery didnt murder her and the police didnt murder her, who did? I've presented the list of 4 suspects the defense wanted looked at. I think all 4 of them could be possible and should have been investigated, and I think one of them is a better suspect than Steven, IMO. I have never said i believe Avery is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt- I have simply said that I am sick of seeing him portrayed as someone who had no motive for this crime.

I really don't see the motive for steven to do this though, i guess agree to disagree. Anyone really could have done it, i mean, ken kratz was sexually harassing clients by telephone, maybe he was the one calling teresa, just as much motive for him to do it as steven if we're using speculation and past behavior as evidence

 

[stephsb]

Wisconsin has a witness protection unit in the DOJ, which deals with witnesses who need to be protected based on testimony they'd provide. The FBI deals with federal crimes. Either way, I am unaware of her brother or ex-boyfriend being involved in any crime she was testifying against, and Avery and Dassey would not be in jail if the DOJ knew she was alive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Soulmagent]

Wisconsin has a witness protection unit in the DOJ, which deals with witnesses who need to be protected based on testimony they'd provide. The FBI deals with federal crimes. Either way, I am unaware of her brother or ex-boyfriend being involved in any crime she was testifying against, and Avery and Dassey would not be in jail if the DOJ knew she was alive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This link has some very interesting points on this topic.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Gn8aLAClHXIC&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq=wisconsin+state+witness+protection+relocation+program&source=bl&ots=A0QgPRHt72&sig=MwGDWZsEHUY9oKHLyNG2yk68dyw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwm5SH_IbKAhWM5SYKHQgtC8AQ6AEISDAG#v=onepage&q=wisconsin%20state%20witness%20protection%20relocation%20program&f=false
I don't think I can rule out that it is impossible to have happened. I do think it is a huge unlikely,not impossile .Plus it really does sound crazy at first..like having 100 cats. Then you sit with them a while ,and love everyone..

I don't have 100 cats. Just 3.

 

[AutumnDawn]

http://www.exposingtruth.com/looking-at-the-evidence-in-the-steven-avery-case/

This has a layout of the evidence we saw in the documentary, easier to refer back to.

 

[Random-me]

How do we know she was raped/sexually assaulted? That came from Brendans confession which I believe is false

 

[Really?]

I really don't see the motive for steven to do this though, i guess agree to disagree. Anyone really could have done it, i mean, ken kratz was sexually harassing clients by telephone, maybe he was the one calling teresa, just as much motive for him to do it as steven if we're using speculation and past behavior as evidence

This is how I feel as well. Why in the world would he put his newly gained freedom in jeopardy. No way......no how.

I'm going in the direction that a vehicle with a lone woman was seen exiting the junkyard.

The person/persons who saw TH leaving the photo shoot set SA up. Big time.

A) Jealousy ?

B) Financial ?

C) karma ?

 

[Soulmagent]

This is how I feel as well. Why in the world would he put his newly gained freedom in jeopardy. No way......no how.

I'm going in the direction that a vehicle with a lone woman was seen exiting the junkyard.

The person/persons who saw TH leaving the photo shoot set SA up. Big time.

A) Jealousy ?

B) Financial ?

C) karma ?

There is the whole question about the hour that is missing when she told her co worker she was 10 minutes from Avery's but was not seen there for another hour. I would guess Avery called because she was not there at the time but has anyone even seen what time she was supposed to be there?Was she an hour late for the van photo's?