New to this case and new to the forum

[leslievernon]

thx. yeah, it's not my native language... maybe i got that word wrong all along, well..

ok, echols as a suspect.
sure.. like i said and i didnt even exaggerate too much - he was a person of interest, considering everything else, i would have wanted to talk to him.
but he was the only one left... after months of investigating.. i remember there was a truck driver of interest.. there were some other teens, that were questioned and really looked at... yeah. but everything to no avail.

then they picked up jessy and brought him in and this is really the point where supporters and non-supporters divide, completely. ... why is it so hard to believe that somebody confesses to something, let's say through police pressure, and then later says that he made it up. when you have like 25% of DNA exoneration cases where people were in jail because they confessed to something they didn't actually do... it happens.

 

[leslievernon]

correction: not months. police investigated a month before jessie was brought in. that was on june 3rd. anyway, the echols/baldwin trial started in febr. 94. so they had time to built their case.
(as i said i'm gonna be careful now with the dates and facts.)

 

[leslievernon]

another thing that led me to believe that the state's version can't be true, is lividity:

correct me if i am wrong, but coroner kent hale noted "body#2 (steven branch) lividity on left buttock", the other two bodies had "lividity on buttocks and back".

in the state's version, all 3 bodies laid face down in the mud, in the water, for ca. 19 hours.
how can there be lividity on the back?

dr. peretti, who examined the bodies and was the state's medical expert during the trial(s), found no mosquito bites on any of them.
also, there was a "grid-like pattern" (again, peretti) on the inner thigh of steven branch. peretti couldn't say what made that impression. police searched the ditch with metal detectors.. i doubt that there is any report indicating that an object was found in the ditch that could have made such impression. that impression most probably was created while the victim was dying, while there was still a bloodflow, i guess (and that is my amateur medical opinion).

the bodies must have been moved to the ditch from somewhere else. imo those things support that somehow.

 

[Userid]

sure... i should have checked the facts again, at callahans (if that site still exists)

it's just frustrating to argue who's more deranged.. sometimes someone who kills doesn't even seem deranged... and there was sooo much talking in that community at that time.

but you made me curious... what's your conclusion to all this? (Userid)

I'm a fencie (not a non), so I don't have a preconceived notion of who is responsible for this crime necessarily. I used to be a hard core supporter. When I saw the movies, I was sure they were innocent. That said, I don't want to cop out here. If I have to pick a "conclusion," I will give you the 3 suspects that are highest on my list of people who could have done this (assuming it's someone in the neighborhood):

Tim C. (won't use full names as it wouldn't be fair; these are mere speculations)
Otto B. Jr. (one of the last people to see the boys, who implied they were "running away" and had green back packs, which strikes me as suspicious).
JM (who who have had to have help, perhaps from DE or others)

Notice how I kept JB off. I don't dismiss JB's involvement, but I do wonder if perhaps JM committed this crime with people other than the 2 he ended up listing, considering he initially tried to say that Robert B. did it (instead of JB).

Also, I don't necessarily believe that, if one or all of the WM3 were involved, that this was a "satanic ritual," but rather, a bullying-gone-wrong scenario.

TH ranks very low on my list of suspects. Quite honestly, there simply is nothing there; he's simply the "next best suspect" after JMB, who was also wrongly accused. I find the notion that he would not only kill his step-son, but also his two friends far-fetched. Let's say he hit SB -- and the other two saw -- why would he need to kill all of them? The only way a TH theory makes sense, is if TH wanted to kill SB from the word go, and the two boys saw the actual murder of SB occur -- but again, there is zero evidence that TH was angry at SB that day; angry enough to kill him.

The longer I study this case, the more I believe that a stranger was involved; a trucker, etc. I know people dismiss a stranger and say it "had to be someone who knew the boys," but I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory anymore.

 

[Userid]

i don't know, look, these are some of the things that this SUSPECT did:
broke into a neighbor's appartment, attacked her under the shower.
shot his brother in law in the stomach with one of these bullets.. that cause massive damage.
allegations of child abuse, his own daughter.
was the last one to search the woods in the early morning hours.
has no alibi.
was never questioned.

Few things need clarification here, particularly the bolded:

First, this was in self-defense. PH's brother went to TH's house to confront him, and attacked him first; hence, why TH was never charged with a crime.

Second, his daughter says she doesn't recall ever being molested by TH. She states this in West of Memphis I believe.

Third, I don't think he was the last one to search the woods. I'd say the last ones to do so, were the two cops, Slater and Bosky (think those were their names); who said they searched the very spot where the boys were found with flashlights and even jumped over the creek; and claimed the bodies couldn't have been there at the time they searched (which was 5:30 am to 6 am.).

 

[Userid]

ok, so you think they did it. i have no problem with that.

i think that steven's stepfather caught the kids at their secret hideout in the woods there.. things get out of control, and he had to kill all 3 in order not to get caught. period.

and what looks like mutilation, was done by animals, because the bodies lay hidden, most possibly in a manhole until dark, but still accesable to carnivores.

yeah, call me crazy but now it all comes back to me.. yes. i think it happened like that.

All of the manholes in the area were searched by police, so any "manhole theory" holds very little weight in my view.

I still don't understand why TH would suddenly flip out if he found the boys and just up decide to kill them all, on the spot, when a group of people were out searching for them at the same time. I'm not being rude, but I just never understood that theory. Honestly, that theory would fit JMB more so than it would TH, considering JMB had already whipped CB that day, was already extremely angry with him while searching, told witnesses (CP) that he would need to give CB another whipping when he found him, etc.

There are marks on the bodies that simply couldn't have come from an animal. There are perfectly, even-spaced and sized dash marks on the upper/inner thighs of CB that no animal's teeth or claws could ever replicate. I'm not trying to change your mind, just for what it's worth.

 

[Userid]

so your saying with his mental and criminal history he should never have been looked at??
who should have then?
if we can not start at where there is smoke...….

the police had every right to go for him first.
that's where the evidence started.

What's ironic is this belief that DE was "honed in on" from the word go. Yes, his name was mentioned early, but the police "honed in" on JMB much more so than DE initially -- understandably so. They investigated many leads before they ultimately arrested the WM3; just go on Cally's and look at the reports. Why would they bother looking into all these other leads, if their intent from the start was to pin it on DE?

 

[leslievernon]

not everything you think you have to clarifiy makes it any better, or worse, or all of a sudden true, Userid. i'm just saying it cause you said it before, you were right, but here not so much:

1. shooting the brother. yeah, an argument.. "altercation".. after pam's brother saw her broken jaw and she said hobbs did it.. so yeah, things got heated up. and then hobbs pulled out the gun and shot him with a hollow point bullet in the stomach of which he died eventually.

2. i too read portions of amandas diary, but i am not even talking about that - there were statements from family reg. abuse of steven and amanda. have you read that? if you just put that aside then you can sure do that.

3. yes, he was most probably one of if not the last one to be in the woods the night of ma 5th. here is hobbs from the 2007 police interview:
"he [david jacoby] was with me until 2-3 in the morning, may 6th."
jacoby said he had to go cause he had to get up at six. i can't find it right now what pam said reg. hobbs coming home finally. i'm gonna search for it.
but you are right - slater and brodsky came at sunrise and did a thorough search. bodies were most probably buried underwater and the water was dirty.. later, det. ridge literally stumbled over a body (can't remember which one)


to the manholes:
yes... police searched them.. but when did they do it? i think the bodies have been moved so they weren't there anymore by the time they searched them in daylight may 6th.
hobbs said that ryan clarke told him on the evening of may 5th that the boys probaly were in a manhole.


sorry i have no links here, you have too look all this up yourself (2007 interview with mitchell should be on callahan) also, i am translating my own german summary back into englisch.. but it should be accurate.

 

[leslievernon]

i'm quoting also from the pasdar deposition, and the dimension films interview.

also:
yeah, some posts back i wrote that police followed many leads during may.... to no avail.

 

[leslievernon]

@Userid
you said the more you got into it the more you thought it might be a stranger.

...but why was the perpetrator so concerned with hiding the bodies... like i said, they saw until ridge walked over a body in the mud... and that whole tying-up thing....

you said bullying-gone-wrong.. absolutely. yes. in the worst way - grown *advertiser censored** man vs. little boys.

 

[Userid]

not everything you think you have to clarifiy makes it any better, or worse, or all of a sudden true, Userid. i'm just saying it cause you said it before, you were right, but here not so much:

1. shooting the brother. yeah, an argument.. "altercation".. after pam's brother saw her broken jaw and she said hobbs did it.. so yeah, things got heated up. and then hobbs pulled out the gun and shot him with a hollow point bullet in the stomach of which he died eventually.

2. i too read portions of amandas diary, but i am not even talking about that - there were statements from family reg. abuse of steven and amanda. have you read that? if you just put that aside then you can sure do that.

3. yes, he was most probably one of if not the last one to be in the woods the night of ma 5th. here is hobbs from the 2007 police interview:
"he [david jacoby] was with me until 2-3 in the morning, may 6th."
jacoby said he had to go cause he had to get up at six. i can't find it right now what pam said reg. hobbs coming home finally. i'm gonna search for it.
but you are right - slater and brodsky came at sunrise and did a thorough search. bodies were most probably buried underwater and the water was dirty.. later, det. ridge literally stumbled over a body (can't remember which one)


to the manholes:
yes... police searched them.. but when did they do it? i think the bodies have been moved so they weren't there anymore by the time they searched them in daylight may 6th.
hobbs said that ryan clarke told him on the evening of may 5th that the boys probaly were in a manhole.


sorry i have no links here, you have too look all this up yourself (2007 interview with mitchell should be on callahan) also, i am translating my own german summary back into englisch.. but it should be accurate.

1. Again, it was self-defense after the brother confronted TH. Listen, I'm not saying TH is a good guy -- he isn't -- but I don't blame PH's brother in the slightest, but it was, technically, an act of self-defense. Again, TH was never charged with a crime; not even assault.

2. Did you see the part in West of Memphis where AH herself questions her own families allegations against TH? Where she says, "if TH was really molesting, why didn't you ever say anything sooner?" and the part where she says she doesn't remember any abuse occurring? The fact PH's side made these allegations is suspect, considering they didn't like TH at the time these allegations were made. Even after these allegations, PH and TH were still friends; if you want proof, check TH's website. PH has always waffled on the issue and last I checked, she doesn't believe TH had anything to do with the murders.

3. That quote you used in no way says that TH was "in the woods" at that time; simply that DJ was with him until 2-3 in the morning. Even if you're right, there is no way to quantify who the "last person" to search the woods was. JMB himself said he searched the woods at 4:30 a.m., per jivepuppi:

Until 4:30 am. "I was out looking until 4:30 a.m. I walked within 10 or 15 feet of where the bodies were found and I didn't see them," Mark Byers, father of one of the victims said." ...:::Murders In West Memphis:::...

The manholes were searched the next day; pretty sure at least some of them were searched while the case was still in the kidnapping/missing phase to boot (if you're looking for children, why wouldn't they have been?).

 

[leslievernon]

john mark byers... what a character. i think i even Pmed with him, once.. during the time at the blackboard... yeah, i mean, i don't know. i sure despised him in PL... me being more the heavy metal guy and so on the evil one.

and he was actually shouting the loudest, everytime some new stuff reg. hobbs was going to come out, but he too could not magically make some smoking gun appear, and we all somehow knew that. i mean that JMB was and will ever be that kind of a shady guy. sorry. like hobbs..

 

[Userid]

@Userid
you said the more you got into it the more you thought it might be a stranger.

...but why was the perpetrator so concerned with hiding the bodies... like i said, they saw **** until ridge walked over a body in the mud... and that whole tying-up thing....

you said bullying-gone-wrong.. absolutely. yes. in the worst way - grown *advertiser censored** man vs. little boys.

Grown men wouldn't "bully" 3 children for absolutely no reason; teenagers would.

If (I stress, "if") it was a stranger, there are plenty of reasons to submerge the victims in water: wash off any DNA or any other evidence left behind, for starters. That's an easy question. The harder question is, why not take the clothes? But this question can also be asked in a "TH did it" scenario as well. There are easier ways to dispose of clothes than what was exhibited in this crime, whether TH did it or a stranger did it. I feel like whoever it was, they simply thought they could throw the clothes in the creek and they'd sink, but when the killer(s) saw that they were floating, he improvised on the spot with what was around (sticks). The bikes were thrown into the bayou because there was no room left in the creek to throw them; and if a trucker was responsible, he would still want to dispose of the bikes, if only to buy himself more time. Let's say he left the bikes in open-view; and they were discovered immediately -- searchers would know to search the creek immediately (assuming that the abduction site was in the vicinity of the 76/Blue Beacon/Discovery site). They would know to ask Blue Beacon and the 76 Stop about truckers. Police might even put out an APB to stop all trucks entering and exiting the state for the immediate future. But since he hid the bikes though, that gave him plenty of time to be completely out of the area -- even out of the state -- by the time the bodies were found.

 

[leslievernon]

i don't know, a trucker i would rule out - why so much work if you can just drive away.. that with the road stops makes sense actually.. but, i don't know how far he'd come there, i mean... they must have found the bodies, and then somehow come to the conclusion that it might have been a truck driver. and then initiate all that what you said..

IMO this is just too much of "s**t what have i done if they find them i'm finished oh god"... and that's why. and that can only come from someone who has to stay there with all the people who care and search for the boys.

 

[Userid]

i don't know, a trucker i would rule out - why so much work if you can just drive away.. that with the road stops makes sense actually.. but, i don't know how far he'd come there, i mean... they must have found the bodies, and then somehow come to the conclusion that it might have been a truck driver. and then initiate all that what you said..

IMO this is just too much of "s**t what have i done if they find them i'm finished oh god"... and that's why. and that can only come from someone who has to stay there with all the people who care and search for the boys.

Fair enough -- agree to disagree. The thing that makes this case so puzzling, is that there are questions (such as the one you pose) for both stranger-theories and family-theories. The main question is, if the crime didn't occur in these woods, why choose these particular woods? Especially when you had an even bigger patch of woods across the highway, where searchers weren't looking all night on top of it? Why pick a patch of woods right next to two 24-hour establishments, a stone's-throw away from an entire neighborhood, overlooked by an entire apartment complex? I mean, you would think the killer(s) was trying to get caught, if this is simply a dump site. You had the Mississippi River not far away; you had a huge expanse of even bigger woods right across the highway. You had searchers searching the dump site all throughout the night, into the morning. There's just no logical explanation why a killer(s) would choose this site for a dump site, unless the plan was to make it exponentially easier for him to get caught.

That is again why I think a trucker did it. He kept his truck in the 76 lot (with the murders occurring in the trailer of the truck); knew when the coast was clear; dumped everything (perhaps in separate shifts); then simply got back on the highway and rode off. It would not be easy to drive a huge semi-truck to another dump site location to dump the bodies, hence, why this location was chosen: convenience.

 

[leslievernon]

now that i have the summary in front of me - ken govar, went to police 2 days after the bodies were found, and told them about a hitchhiker he picked up. a man, 30ish, 5'10, long reddish blond hair, bushy sideburns.... he eventually let him out near the truck wash, at around 3-4 pm on may 5th...

now that i read it again... just a crime of pure oportunity for some weirdo..? might be. also what you said. it's not much but who really knows... wmpd looked at some people with tattoes (govar said he had a devil like tattoo that scared him), but again.. nothing.

i have my theory but still there is good a chance i might be totally wrong.

 

[Alyssa Edwards]

Hi all , thanks for all your replies and theories, it’s great to hear opinions from both sides. I’m still my way through all of the official documents and I hope to be as experienced in this case as you all are!

 

[Userid]

now that i have the summary in front of me - ken govar, went to police 2 days after the bodies were found, and told them about a hitchhiker he picked up. a man, 30ish, 5'10, long reddish blond hair, bushy sideburns.... he eventually let him out near the truck wash, at around 3-4 pm on may 5th...

now that i read it again... just a crime of pure oportunity for some weirdo..? might be. also what you said. it's not much but who really knows... wmpd looked at some people with tattoes (govar said he had a devil like tattoo that scared him), but again.. nothing.

i have my theory but still there is good a chance i might be totally wrong.

Yes -- I believe this guy was a tree-trimmer, with a devil tattoo. I'm unsure if they ever found him or not. I believe they did interview some people who fit his description; there was one guy in particular (who was a tree trimmer, red hair), but I'm not sure if he had the devil tattoo.

I can understand thinking that a family member committed this crime -- there's nothing wrong with that theory, in and of itself -- but then again, crimes of opportunity do happen. I could just as easily be wrong too, but I like to keep every option open when thinking about this case. If it can't be definitively ruled out, then it should still be an option, and right now, either theory can't be ruled out definitively.

 

[leslievernon]

yeah, that's the one i meant.

altogether.. i have, and i'm sure you too have, one or more things that makes you lean towards a certain direction.
for me, it is clearly the indications that the bodies did not lay there for 19 hours straight like jessie and the state claimed.

i already pointed out lividity (and where it should'nt be), the grid-like pattern, no mosquito bites.
and i add: fly larvea in the nostrils of iirc all 3 boys (how can a fly lay an egg in your nose when your face is pressed in the mud in the water), also, blood-clotted (don't nail me on the wording now), or blood crusted hair. that also only appears when the sticky hair is exposed to air for some time. (only my laymans opinion)

a not-so direct thing that led me to believe is also:
the bindings. there was some slack... so the purpose couldn't have been for imobility imo. but for easier transportation... to the ditch.
yeah, that's about it i think. it's that.. with everything else that's wrong with the case.

 

[Userid]

yeah, that's the one i meant.

altogether.. i have, and i'm sure you too have, one or more things that makes you lean towards a certain direction.
for me, it is clearly the indications that the bodies did not lay there for 19 hours straight like jessie and the state claimed.

i already pointed out lividity (and where it should'nt be), the grid-like pattern, no mosquito bites.
and i add: fly larvea in the nostrils of iirc all 3 boys (how can a fly lay an egg in your nose when your face is pressed in the mud in the water), also, blood-clotted (don't nail me on the wording now), or blood crusted hair. that also only appears when the sticky hair is exposed to air for some time. (only my laymans opinion)

a not-so direct thing that led me to believe is also:
the bindings. there was some slack... so the purpose couldn't have been for imobility imo. but for easier transportation... to the ditch.
yeah, that's about it i think. it's that.. with everything else that's wrong with the case.

Couple things: lividity is tricky. Water can affect lividity. Two of the boys clearly entered rigor when removed (SB and CB), whereas MM was not in rigor.

Did you know that the bodies were laid out in the open woods for hours after Bryn Ridge found them? This is where the fly larvae came from -- after the boys were recovered from the ditch and before they were bagged by the coroner. Even when they were bagged, the bodies were still on the ground while police searched the area. The same would explain the blood in the hair. You can see this clearly in Paradise Lost 1, when the bodies are on the ground.

I have to vehemently disagree with you with the "binding for transportation" theory. All due respect, but I simply can't understand how these bindings would have made transporting these bodies any easier -- if anything, they would have made it exponentially harder to transport. If you wanted to transport two bodies at one time, the more logical way to do it would have been to simply slump one body over the shoulder, per shoulder. You wouldn't need to awkwardly tie their limbs this way; carrying them this way would have put unnecessary strain on one's forearms. Also, with the slack in the bindings, the bodies would have been dragging on the ground, if the killer was carrying one body with each hand, by the middle of the binding. There would have been drag marks and long blood trails from where the killer had transported them to the creek. Also, CB's bindings were only bound by two half-hitch knots on each limb -- those knots would have never held if the body was transported predominantly by the bindings themselves; they would have never held. CB was the only who had faint yellow marks around his bindings, indicating that they were tied after he had already passed (and hence, why the knots were so weak; the killer knew he was unconscious), but MM and SB bindings were tied with tighter, more intricate knots and the abrasions around some of the bindings were darker (reddish, purple, etc.), indicating they were still alive and blood was still flowing to those tied areas.

My main point is this: All the bindings were applied after all the victims were already unconscious, but before the entire attack was completed.

I believe the bindings were applied after CB was murdered, and while MM and SB were unconscious, but still alive. Remember, CB was the only one who didn't die from drowning. The limbs were tied with the hope that the bodies wouldn't surface to the water and/or to finish the attack on the other two victims.