New to this case - what should I read/watch?

[Compassionate Reader]

pufnstuf,

The State doesn't want further testing performed. That speaks volumes.

As to the ligature hair, if it were Stevie's lace that bound Michael, then that lace would have been pulled through the eyelets of Stevie's shoe when it was removed. IMO, it's highly unlikely that a hair would survive that sort of action. Also, the lengths of the pieces of shoe lace used to bind Michael don't match a child's lace.

If you go to www.wm3blackboard.com and read about the laces, you will see that Michael was apparently tied with one lace cut in half. That lace would have to have been about 60" long. Childrens' laces are not that long. If you study the very detailed information on the blackboard site about the laces, you will see that one of the boys' laces was still in a shoe and one of the boys' laces is apparently missing. Although we can't say for a certainty which boy was tied with which laces, Michael was tied with laces that were cut in half. Cutting a child's lace in half would not produce a piece long enough to match Michael's ligatures. Therefore, Michael was not tied with any laces from any of the boys' shoes. He was tied with a foreign lace cut in half.

Here's a link:
http://www.wm3blackboard.com/forum/index.php?topic=887.0

 

[pufnstuf]

pufnstuf,

The State doesn't want further testing performed. That speaks volumes.

Why should the state want further testing done? The right people are in prison, and the conviction of each of them rests on a mountain of testimony and evidence. But, by all means, let the defense test the bloody shirt and the bloody amulet. Don't worry.. they won't. They know that the chances are statistically huge that the DNA results wouldn't serve their purpose, and would quite likely produce results far from what they hope to find.

As to the ligature hair, if it were Stevie's lace that bound Michael, then that lace would have been pulled through the eyelets of Stevie's shoe when it was removed. IMO, it's highly unlikely that a hair would survive that sort of action.[/b]

I'll have to remember that. Next time my cat lies down on my puma running shoes, I can just rip the laces out, and all cat hair will be gone. Why hasn't someone thought of this before!? Oh. Because it's imaginary nonsense that is supported by nothing more than a few supporters' wacky ideas

Also, the lengths of the pieces of shoe lace used to bind Michael don't match a child's lace.[/B]

If you go to www.wm3blackboard.com and read about the laces, you will see that Michael was apparently tied with one lace cut in half. That lace would have to have been about 60" long. Childrens' laces are not that long[/quote]

So that's our supposition, that the laces were cut in half at the crime scene instead of doing what many of us do when our kids laces bust...take a long shoelace from a pair of high-tops that we no longer wear, and cut it in half, then lace them up and they're ready to go. I guess that theory isn't salacious enough, tho? No, there has to be something eeeevil behind the shoestring fiasco.

If you study the very detailed information [information on par with what you present here> Nah, I'm cool.]on the blackboard site about the laces, you will see that one of the boys' laces was still in a shoe and one of the boys' laces is apparently missing. Although we can't say for a certainty which boy was tied with which laces [true--glad to see you finally concede that point] ,Michael was tied with laces that were cut in half. Cutting a child's lace in half would not produce a piece long enough to match Michael's ligatures. Therefore, Michael was not tied with any laces from any of the boys' shoes. He was tied with a foreign lace cut in half.

The murderer MUST have done it. Surely couldn't attribute something like that to a parent getting a child ready for school, and child has busted lace. so parent digs out her old high tops, cuts the lace in half, and laces up child's shoes with two matching half laces. I've done it. Parents do it all the time.

Here's a link:
http://www.wm3blackboard.com/forum/index.php?topic=887.0[/QUOTE]


I'll pass. I don't have the time or energy to dispel fantasy posts which, if they resemble many of your posts here, are based on little fact and a lot of wishful distortion.

Nah, I'm pretty happy with what I've learned at callahan. And even jive puppi. But I won't spend time on sites which claim to be legitimate, while at the same time postulation outlandish theories.

 

[ziggy]

The hair is but one factor in the TH theory. It's not really fair to state that he's being treated this way over a hair...

 

[pufnstuf]

The hair is but one factor in the TH theory. It's not really fair to state that he's being treated this way over a hair...

What are the other factors that directly tie to the case?

The deposition of someone who never bothered to contact LE during the time of the investigation, but waited 16 years to say, "Oh yeah, I saw him blah blah blah."

The hilarious JMB tapes - what a hoot those are.

That he had "anger problems?"

The "TH Theory" is not a theory. It's a hypothesis. A hypothesis doesn't become theory until it's proved, and there's no proof whatsoever that TH was involved with the deaths of the children.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the evidentiary hearing in December will provide much more evidence than we now have. True, right now there is not a lot of physical evidence against TH, except for the hairs. Although, there is more physical evidence linking TH to the crime than there is or ever was linking the WM3 to the crime. Right now, except for the hairs, all that points to TH is circumstantial. However, IIRC, circumstantial evidence is all they had on the WM3 (except, of course, the coerced, false statement of JM). Unfortunately for the State, the ASSC has decided that the case needs another look. They can no longer rely on good ol' Satanic Panic and the likes of Dale Griffis. The tide is turning. The hearing is coming, and justice will finally be done.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the evidentiary hearing in December will provide much more evidence than we now have. True, right now there is not a lot of physical evidence against TH, except for the hairs. Although, there is more physical evidence linking TH to the crime than there is or ever was linking the WM3 to the crime. Right now, except for the hairs, all that points to TH is circumstantial. However, IIRC, circumstantial evidence is all they had on the WM3 (except, of course, the coerced, false statement of JM). Unfortunately for the State, the ASSC has decided that the case needs another look. They can no longer rely on good ol' Satanic Panic and the likes of Dale Griffis. The tide is turning. The hearing is coming, and justice will finally be done.

Just curious about this. If the evidence has a negative impact on the West Memphis 3, will you still be a supporter?

I've have heard of people who support people who are guilty before. Just look at all the penpal fans some serial killers have.

 

[pufnstuf]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the evidentiary hearing in December will provide much more evidence than we now have. True, right now there is not a lot of physical evidence against TH, except for the hairs. Although, there is more physical evidence linking TH to the crime than there is or ever was linking the WM3 to the crime. Right now, except for the hairs, all that points to TH is circumstantial. However, IIRC, circumstantial evidence is all they had on the WM3 (except, of course, the coerced, false statement of JM). Unfortunately for the State, the ASSC has decided that the case needs another look. They can no longer rely on good ol' Satanic Panic and the likes of Dale Griffis. The tide is turning. The hearing is coming, and justice will finally be done.

And the hair can easily be explained because TH lived with one of the boys who was viciously murdered by Damien Echols.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

The hair was not in the ligature of TH's step son; it was in the ligature of another victim. So, innocent transfer, IMO, is not that obvious. That still leaves the other hair, the one that is linked to TH's friend whose deposition states that he was playing guitars for an hour with TH shortly before the boys went missing. I'm aware that there are other untested hairs. If the State feels that they are incriminating toward the WM3, why do they refuse to test them? The defense says to test everything, like the ASSC, that all means all. The State is wanting to curtail the testing.

UdbCrzy2, just curious, when the further testing (that I am confident that Judge Laser will order) further exonerates the WM3 and points to another suspect, will you and all the other nons simply go away?

pufnstuf, your last statement shows a bit of desperation, IMO. I believe that the WM3 are innocent of the crime for which they are incarcerated. I believe that a horrible miscarriage of justice has occurred. I believe that the three little boys deserve justice, and that the WM3 should be free. If juries were always right in their verdicts, why would we have an appeals process in this country? The juries were wrong, and the three young men were railroaded by unethical police tactics and people who sought to advance their careers and didn't care who they had to destroy to do so.

 

[pufnstuf]

The hair was not in the ligature of TH's step son; it was in the ligature of another victim. So, innocent transfer, IMO, is not that obvious. That still leaves the other hair, the one that is linked to TH's friend whose deposition states that he was playing guitars for an hour with TH shortly before the boys went missing. I'm aware that there are other untested hairs. If the State feels that they are incriminating toward the WM3, why do they refuse to test them? The defense says to test everything, like the ASSC, that all means all. The State is wanting to curtail the testing.

UdbCrzy2, just curious, when the further testing (that I am confident that Judge Laser will order) further exonerates the WM3 and points to another suspect, will you and all the other nons simply go away?

pufnstuf, your last statement shows a bit of desperation, IMO. I believe that the WM3 are innocent of the crime for which they are incarcerated. I believe that a horrible miscarriage of justice has occurred. I believe that the three little boys deserve justice, and that the WM3 should be free. If juries were always right in their verdicts, why would we have an appeals process in this country? The juries were wrong, and the three young men were railroaded by unethical police tactics and people who sought to advance their careers and didn't care who they had to destroy to do so.

As I have stated numerous times before, directly to you, yet you for some reason choose not to listen:

The shoestrings were stripped from the victims shoes and then used to bind the victims... but each victim was not bound with his own shoestring. Therefore, it is very likely that Mike Moore was bound with Steve Branch's shoestring.

As for desperation, why on earth would I be "desperate?" Maybe you're projecting?

I'm not worried in the least about the upcoming evidentiary hearing. There will be no new trial. Damien will stay where he is until he makes his final stroll toward the gurney, and Jessie and Jason will die in prison. The only desperation I see is on the part of the supporters who lie and distort the record to benefit their idols.

 

[iluvmua]

Certainly you're not talking about me. I have read every single file ever released on this case. Ignorant, I am not. It's through that reading that I've come to the conclusion that the right people are in prison.

What truly disgusts me, though, is that Terry Hobbs is a VICTIM in this case, the stepfather of a dead child. And the way he's being treated by a small segment of the defenders of the WM3 is terrible. And he's being treated this way over a hair, the location of which can easily be explained by the fact that he lived in the same household with one of the children.

I also would like to add that according to Devil's Knot, when Terry found out that Stevie had been murdered he broke down and cried.

The hair is probably nothing more than secondary transfer.

I'm sure if Todd Moore was in West Memphis the day his child & friends were murdered they would go after him as well.

The WM3 are NOT victims.

Stevie, Michael, Christopher, John Mark, Todd, Melissa, Dana, Terry & Pam ARE victims.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

iluvmua,

You say the hair is probably secondary transfer. I presume that you are talking about the hair in the ligature that bound Michael Moore, which is a 98.5% mtDNA match to TH (and he is not MM's step father). Even if that were true, although how it was a casual transfer to a knot in a ligature is still a long reach, how do you explain the Jacoby hair? That hair either got there directly (Jacoby at the discovery ditch, which he denies) or it was secondary transfer.

If it was secondary transfer, from whom was it transferred? Jacoby says that he and TH were playing guitars shortly before the boys went missing. To me, it is logical to assume that TH picked up that hair (some reports indicate that Jacoby was a long-haired fellow at the time) while they were playing guitars. Then, assuming both hairs came from TH, the next question becomes whether or not it was "innocent" transfer. My view on this is to take into consideration the struggle (if you believe Jessie's wild accounts) that took place on that ditch bank. Both Damien and Jason had long hair at the time, but yet in that struggle, none of their hair is lost? That simply defies logic.

What makes sense to me is that the discovery ditch is not the murder scene. The perpetrator moved the bodies to the discovery ditch, and, in the process of tying the bodies for transport, one of his red beard hairs became embedded in the ligature of Michael Moore. The other hair (the "Jacoby" hair) was found on a tree stump by the discovery site. My explanation of its presence is that, after transporting two bodies, the perpetrator sat down on the tree stump to rest and the hair, which he originally picked up on his clothing while playing guitars, was dislodged from his clothing at that time. If the discovery ditch is not the murder scene, then Jessie's "confession" is false and there is absolutely no evidence to tie the WM3 to these murders.

If the judge orders further testing and DNA samples from TH and Jacoby, we can put an end to the mystery of to whom the hairs belong (although the mtDNA percentages are pretty high). However, if the State's argument for no further testing prevails, we may never have a definitive answer to this crucial question. I believe that this case cries out for an explanation to this little part of the mystery.

I am confident that Judge Laser will order further testing and will order full DNA samples to be taken from TH and Jacoby (and probably others in this case). December seems so far away, but it will come. When December comes, justice for the three little boys, and the WM3, will be a nice Christmas present.

 

[iluvmua]

iluvmua,

You say the hair is probably secondary transfer. I presume that you are talking about the hair in the ligature that bound Michael Moore, which is a 98.5% mtDNA match to TH (and he is not MM's step father). Even if that were true, although how it was a casual transfer to a knot in a ligature is still a long reach, how do you explain the Jacoby hair? That hair either got there directly (Jacoby at the discovery ditch, which he denies) or it was secondary transfer.

If it was secondary transfer, from whom was it transferred? Jacoby says that he and TH were playing guitars shortly before the boys went missing. To me, it is logical to assume that TH picked up that hair (some reports indicate that Jacoby was a long-haired fellow at the time) while they were playing guitars. Then, assuming both hairs came from TH, the next question becomes whether or not it was "innocent" transfer. My view on this is to take into consideration the struggle (if you believe Jessie's wild accounts) that took place on that ditch bank. Both Damien and Jason had long hair at the time, but yet in that struggle, none of their hair is lost? That simply defies logic.

What makes sense to me is that the discovery ditch is not the murder scene. The perpetrator moved the bodies to the discovery ditch, and, in the process of tying the bodies for transport, one of his red beard hairs became embedded in the ligature of Michael Moore. The other hair (the "Jacoby" hair) was found on a tree stump by the discovery site. My explanation of its presence is that, after transporting two bodies, the perpetrator sat down on the tree stump to rest and the hair, which he originally picked up on his clothing while playing guitars, was dislodged from his clothing at that time. If the discovery ditch is not the murder scene, then Jessie's "confession" is false and there is absolutely no evidence to tie the WM3 to these murders.

If the judge orders further testing and DNA samples from TH and Jacoby, we can put an end to the mystery of to whom the hairs belong (although the mtDNA percentages are pretty high). However, if the State's argument for no further testing prevails, we may never have a definitive answer to this crucial question. I believe that this case cries out for an explanation to this little part of the mystery.

I am confident that Judge Laser will order further testing and will order full DNA samples to be taken from TH and Jacoby (and probably others in this case). December seems so far away, but it will come. When December comes, justice for the three little boys, and the WM3, will be a nice Christmas present.

And just exactly how did Terry Hobbs kill three innocent children without anyone seeing him?

 

[iluvmua]

What are the other factors that directly tie to the case?

The deposition of someone who never bothered to contact LE during the time of the investigation, but waited 16 years to say, "Oh yeah, I saw him blah blah blah."

The hilarious JMB tapes - what a hoot those are.

That he had "anger problems?"

The "TH Theory" is not a theory. It's a hypothesis. A hypothesis doesn't become theory until it's proved, and there's no proof whatsoever that TH was involved with the deaths of the children.

exactly!

 

[UdbCrzy2]

The hair was not in the ligature of TH's step son; it was in the ligature of another victim. So, innocent transfer, IMO, is not that obvious. That still leaves the other hair, the one that is linked to TH's friend whose deposition states that he was playing guitars for an hour with TH shortly before the boys went missing. I'm aware that there are other untested hairs. If the State feels that they are incriminating toward the WM3, why do they refuse to test them? The defense says to test everything, like the ASSC, that all means all. The State is wanting to curtail the testing.

UdbCrzy2, just curious, when the further testing (that I am confident that Judge Laser will order) further exonerates the WM3 and points to another suspect, will you and all the other nons simply go away?

pufnstuf, your last statement shows a bit of desperation, IMO. I believe that the WM3 are innocent of the crime for which they are incarcerated. I believe that a horrible miscarriage of justice has occurred. I believe that the three little boys deserve justice, and that the WM3 should be free. If juries were always right in their verdicts, why would we have an appeals process in this country? The juries were wrong, and the three young men were railroaded by unethical police tactics and people who sought to advance their careers and didn't care who they had to destroy to do so.

If there is evidence proving innocence, of course we want that! What say you? You never answered MY question. Here we go:

If this proves that they committed the crimes WILL YOU STILL BE A SUPPORTER? Now, please answer that one?

I think you will be a supporter no matter what. You support a child murderer?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

And just exactly how did Terry Hobbs kill three innocent children without anyone seeing him?

IMO, he did it in a manhole. He was blocking the only exit, the ladder, so the other two could not escape. It started as "disciplining" Stevie and got out of hand. Then, he had to kill the witnesses. Unfortunately, because the "Keystone Kops" did not conduct a proper investigation, any evidence in the manhole is probably lost forever.


If this proves that they committed the crimes WILL YOU STILL BE A SUPPORTER?

If incontrovertible proof of the involvement of the three men in prison were to come to light (which it won't), I would shout from the rooftops for all three of them to be executed. Is that plain enough?

 

[iluvmua]

And just exactly how did Terry Hobbs kill three innocent children without anyone seeing him?

IMO, he did it in a manhole. He was blocking the only exit, the ladder, so the other two could not escape. It started as "disciplining" Stevie and got out of hand. Then, he had to kill the witnesses. Unfortunately, because the "Keystone Kops" did not conduct a proper investigation, any evidence in the manhole is probably lost forever.


If this proves that they committed the crimes WILL YOU STILL BE A SUPPORTER?

If incontrovertible proof of the involvement of the three men in prison were to come to light (which it won't), I would shout from the rooftops for all three of them to be executed. Is that plain enough?

Is there any evidence to back up your manhole theory? If there is I have not seen any.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Is there any evidence to back up your manhole theory? If there is I have not seen any.

Just like with the WM3, it's mainly circumstantial evidence. The boys were "into" Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" and Michael told a friend at school on May 5, 1993, that they were going to their "secret hideout" (which was a manhole, like the TMNT). TH mentioned, I believe in his 2007 WMPD interview, but it may have been earlier, that Ryan, Chris' brother, said something about "something that covered a hole or something" and that they were going to "check it out." There's no further information about whether or not they did "check it out," however.

We know that the WMPD conducted a cursory investigation of some of the sewers, but it was not thorough and yielded nothing that they considered important at the time. I don't know if what they found is still available or not. Like I said earlier, if the WMPD had been more thorough, it's possible that they could have found evidence at the time. It's probably much too late now. If you watch the 2007 interview, you will see TH indicating with hand motions an object that would be the same size and shape of a manhole in the area when he talks about Ryan's statement.

As I'm sure you know, two tennis shoe prints (or partial prints) were found at the discovery ditch. When the police got Jessie's tennis shoes from Buddy Lucas, they didn't match. Damien and Jason wore boots. The prints were consistent with size 9 1/2 or 10 men's shoes, and they were the only prints discovered at or near the ditch. TH wears a size 9 1/2 shoe.

According to Pam, both Stevie and TH had just bought new shoes within a few days of the murders. TH's had double laces. According to one of Pam's sisters (who now posts at the Blackboard), she remembers that shortly after the murder, TH was wearing only one lace in each shoe. Also, she said that Pam had thrown TH's shoes in the swimming pool (which wasn't functional and was more or less a garbage bin). The pool was covered over shortly thereafter, but apparently TH had taken the shoes out before then because they were not in the pool when it was investigated and dug up later (in 2007, I believe). In fact, he was so bold as to ask for his shoes back when the pool was unearthed. So, it appears that TH wanted to make those shoes disappear before they could be matched to the prints at the scene.

There is/was a manhole that was about 100 feet away from the discovery ditch that is/was one of those conical topped ones, which would have been large enough inside for the murders to have taken place there as I have outlined. Both JMB and Pam had mentioned their sons' interest in TMNT during the investigation, so it's obvious that TH knew about this, too.

Like I said, most of this is circumstantial. The footprints are physical, but the shoes that could match them are long gone. However, all of these circumstantial indications are more than there was/is against the guys in prison. I know there's more that I'm not remembering, but I'll stop for now and add later if I think of it.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

No. I'm not pen pals or related to any of the WM3. My son is about one month younger than Damien and was into heavy metal music and wearing black in high school. He still likes heavy metal music. He introduced me to this case.

I got interested in this case back in 1996 through the first documentary. At the time, with the Judas Priest trials in the news, I suspected very strongly that the WM3 were innocent. Then I was still working (teaching) and didn't really have time to investigate it very much. Also, through my teaching experience (I taught high school), I knew teens very well, and I recognized the arrogant attitude Damien displayed as very typical of teens. I didn't see it as an indication of guilt, just foolish teen behavior.

I retired a couple of years ago (yeah, I'm that old) and have been obsessed with this case since then. I've read extensively on callahan's and post regularly on the blackboard and one of the YUKU discussion boards on the case. I've read Devil's Knot and Blood of the Innocents and Damien's autobiography, Almost Home. I've also read at other websites that discuss this case, including jivepuppi and midsouthjustice.

Maybe I was not totally without bias during my research, but I did read a lot. I even tried to read (never post) over at the Hoax, but, even though I'm no prude, I couldn't take the constant bickering and foul language over there. I feel that I have looked fairly at both sides, and I'm even more firmly convinced that the WM3 are innocent.

Recently, I did post on another case here, but I really don't remember the names. It was one where bodies may be buried under a hospital parking garage in Illinois, I think. I do follow other cases, but I don't feel knowledgeable enough about any other cases but this one to post much. I hope I didn't bore you, but you asked, and, as you know if you've read many of my posts, I like to say a lot.

 

[David366]

The best place to start reading is "Blood of Innocents". It's not all that well-written, but it has the advantage of being true. It's a pedestrian true crime book published quickly before all the "free the WM3" nonsense began.

If you want to delve into primary documents, start by reading Jessie Misskelley's confessions. His initial 6/3/93 confession (part one & part two) includes some misinformation, as Jessie occasionally tries to confuse investigators and to minimize his role in the crime. His 2/17/94 confession, made after his conviction but before Jason & Damien's trial, is a more honest and detailed confession.

Then watch Paradise Lost and sequel if you haven't already.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Jessie's 2/17/94 statement is more (but still not totally) accurate because he heard the State's theory during his trial. Even this statement now disagrees with the evidence as now understood. Jessie is still contending that the little boys were beaten up "with a big ol' stick" but that stick has not been shown to contain any biological indication of it having been used to beat up the little boys. And that's only one problem with this statement. There are many others, but you can discover them for yourself, I am sure.