New Tracey Documentary

[Jayelles]

jameson sent my post about the TV TImes article to Michael Tracey - which proves that she's out of the loop in this one and needed Tracey to comment!

Tracey responded with this:-

Tracey:

THIS IS NONSENSE - YOU CAN QUOTE ME ON THAT - LOU SMIT WAS NOT INVOLOVED IN ANY
WAY SHAPE OR FORM IN MAKING OUR DOCUMENTARY AND THEREFORE CANNOT HAVE SAID
ANYTHING ABOUT MICHAEL HELGOTH. ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET
GETTING THINGS WRONG - IS IT GENETIC?

LOL. Tracey calls himself an academic and yet he is happy to be quoted on his response to jamesons's twisted logic without checking out what she said first! I also particularly liked his comment about it being genetic since my father's cousin was instrumental in this documentary being screened! It is my understanding that Tracey has the highest regard for my second cousin.... I must remember to mention this little comment next time I speak with him!

WHOSE THE OTHER GIRL? WRONG AGAIN
....

NEWS TO ME. THE MAIN PIECES IN THE MEDIA HAVEN'T BEEN DONE YET. AND IT'S NOT A TV STAION IT'S A NETWORK.

This last comment only proves to me that Tracey has been in the States for too long. It's a bit like him saying "It's not a hoover, it's a vacuum cleaner". Or "it's not a biscuit, it's a cookie".

I think I should send him a copy of the TV Times. Better still, I think I might send a copy of his e-mail to jameson to the TV times and they'll maybe print it in their readers letter section top show how he is happy to comment on something he hasn't seen and to take a proven liar's twisted word on something.

Consider it done.

 

[Tricia]

jameson sent my post about the TV TImes article to Michael Tracey - which proves that she's out of the loop in this one and needed Tracey to comment!

Tracey responded with this:-



LOL. Tracey calls himself an academic and yet he is happy to be quoted on his response to jamesons's twisted logic without checking out what she said first! I also particularly liked his comment about it being genetic since my father's cousin was instrumental in this documentary being screened! It is my understanding that Tracey has the highest regard for my second cousin.... I must remember to mention this little comment next time I speak with him!




This last comment only proves to me that Tracey has been in the States for too long. It's a bit like him saying "It's not a hoover, it's a vacuum cleaner". Or "it's not a biscuit, it's a cookie".

I think I should send him a copy of the TV Times. Better still, I think I might send a copy of his e-mail to jameson to the TV times and they'll maybe print it in their readers letter section top show how he is happy to comment on something he hasn't seen and to take a proven liar's twisted word on something.

Consider it done.

Yes it is genetic. Look at Susan Bennett and Tracey. Delusional in their thinking, making money off the murder of a child, continuing to spread their twisted logic any way they can. Gotta run in the gene pool don't you think?

Jayelles you were very clear in your postings. You were going off what was on the magazine and you made it clear that it was not certain if Smit was involved or not.

Now what will really be interesting is if Smit IS involved in a sneaky way and somehow Tracey will try and twist it that he isn't.

Thanks Jayelles. Once again you got them all worked up with the truth.

 

[Enola]

What kind of *advertiser censored* in Great Britain actually paid money for this totally fantastic fable? And who, of their viewing population, will believe it?

Has the general IQ of the British suffered so greatly from immigration in the past 20 years?

What happened to the heyday of British TV, when they produced marvels like Masterpiece Theater and Monty Python?

Lord help the Brits, and God Save the Queen!!! :twocents:

I despise this sort of casual racism. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Maikai]

I despise this sort of casual racism. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Tracey has made sarcastic cracks about internet posters in the past---I don't know how much of what he says is suppose to be a joke or he's serious--probably a little bit of both.

The National Enquirer claims they've had investigative reporters looking into Helgoth--even went so far as to call him a killer on the front page of the tabloid a couple weeks ago. I don't have a lot of faith in the tabloids---once in a while they might get it right. The point is, Lou Smit isn't the only one that had questions about Helgoth--he may have raised the suspicions, but the others have run with it.

 

[Enola]

Er, not sure why you quoted me, Makai...

My comment was aimed at Petronella's cheap crack at British IQ's and the effect upon it of all those "immigrants".

As far as the latest "crockumentary" goes people will only judge on the evidence they are given - if all they see is Tracey then what do you expect of them? IQ doesn't come into it. For others, like Jayelles and myself (to a much lesser extent), intrigue will send them off to do a litle research of their own.

By the way, I'm English and married to the son of immigrants. He has three degrees, I only have the one. So I'm the thicko in this house.

 

[Jayelles]

Have you seen any of the tv weekly magazines? Could you get hold of a TV times and confirm for me that there is a photo of Lou Smit in it with the caption "Probing: Detective Lou Smit (far left) believes Michael Helgoth (left) and an accomplice killed JonBenet".

I ignored the comment about the immigrants. I didn't want to dignify it by acknowledging it. Some of my best students have been immigrants.

 

[Tricia]

Er, not sure why you quoted me, Makai...

My comment was aimed at Petronella's cheap crack at British IQ's and the effect upon it of all those "immigrants".

As far as the latest "crockumentary" goes people will only judge on the evidence they are given - if all they see is Tracey then what do you expect of them? IQ doesn't come into it. For others, like Jayelles and myself (to a much lesser extent), intrigue will send them off to do a litle research of their own.

By the way, I'm English and married to the son of immigrants. He has three degrees, I only have the one. So I'm the thicko in this house.

Hi Enola.

I myself am proud to be British. My mum was born and raised in London. My family is in England. Altough raised American I feel I am British through and through.

I didn't take Petronella's post to be the least bit racisist. I took it as a commentary as to why the British are allowing Tracey to show his crock, when in reality, the British have a wonderful track record when it comes to TV shows.

 

[Maikai]

why I used your quote--probably bad eyesight, and I pressed the wrong icon.

Er, not sure why you quoted me, Makai...

My comment was aimed at Petronella's cheap crack at British IQ's and the effect upon it of all those "immigrants".

As far as the latest "crockumentary" goes people will only judge on the evidence they are given - if all they see is Tracey then what do you expect of them? IQ doesn't come into it. For others, like Jayelles and myself (to a much lesser extent), intrigue will send them off to do a litle research of their own.

By the way, I'm English and married to the son of immigrants. He has three degrees, I only have the one. So I'm the thicko in this house.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

"The stun gun, the tape, the rope on the garrote - none of it has been tied to the family," San Agustin said.


Ned: This is the MOST infuriating crap that I continue to hear over and over again.

First of all there is NO proof a stun gun was used on JonBenet. NONE AT ALL.

The rope and tape were sold ONLY at McGaukins hardware store, and YES Patsy Ramsey can be tied to BOTH items as these items exactly matched the amount of items she purchased 1 month prior to the crime. That’s NO coincidence. Also BOTH items are something she would use. Black tape is well known in the pageant world and JB had one coming up right after Christmas. The rope is a well known use in the art world for transporting pictures. The man obviously does not know this case well enough to even give comments. The thing about Lou is that when everyone talks to him he is very well meaning and very convincing. People take his word for gospel. But oddly enough, like I have reported before in a conversation with him where I thought he would put me on the other side of the fence only raised MORE questions. I have a new thread to start and you are all going to like it, but I have to play catch up first on the theory thread.

 

[Maikai]

"The stun gun, the tape, the rope on the garrote - none of it has been tied to the family," San Agustin said.


Ned: This is the MOST infuriating crap that I continue to hear over and over again.

First of all there is NO proof a stun gun was used on JonBenet. NONE AT ALL.

The rope and tape were sold ONLY at McGaukins hardware store, and YES Patsy Ramsey can be tied to BOTH items as these items exactly matched the amount of items she purchased 1 month prior to the crime. That’s NO coincidence. Also BOTH items are something she would use. Black tape is well known in the pageant world and JB had one coming up right after Christmas. The rope is a well known use in the art world for transporting pictures. The man obviously does not know this case well enough to even give comments. The thing about Lou is that when everyone talks to him he is very well meaning and very convincing. People take his word for gospel. But oddly enough, like I have reported before in a conversation with him where I thought he would put me on the other side of the fence only raised MORE questions. I have a new thread to start and you are all going to like it, but I have to play catch up first on the theory thread.

Doberson has the proof with a high degree of medical certainty that a stun gun was in fact used, and he should know---he missed stun gun marks in the Boggs case, and when he went back and did his homework, the stun gun found in a suspects trunk matched stun gun marks on the victim. Doberson didn't just come up with this off the top of his head. He researched world-wide studies, and did his own experiments on a pig---pigs are commonly used for medical research because they have a lot of similarities to humans--not just their skin, but other systems if the body. The photos of the marks on Bogg's face are similar to those found on JBR, which shows one of the prones was not firmly pushed into her face. Stun gun marks also fade within hours in most cases---JBR was murdered soon after the stun gun was used.

The cord and duct tape are common items sold in many stores. Jeff Shapiro found the cord at the Navy Surplus Store, and brought it to the police. The receipts from McGaukins list the price and department the items came from that Patsy bought--they don't list the name of the item in a lot of cases. There are hundreds of items with the same prices--McGaukins is the largest hardware-type store I've ever seen. Not sure on the square footage, but I'd estimate 70,000 sf or so. The duct tape and cord have not been traced back to Patsy or any Ramsey for that matter. You also can't make a statement that she probably would use it in the pageant world---that's not true. None of the Ramseys were aware of any black duct tape in the house. They also do not know whose rope was found in JAR's room---the fibers from the bag apparently match those found in JBR's bed.

 

[Jayelles]

I came across black duct tape for the first time recently. It was for our school play - a period piece and some of the hired, long black boot zips burst. I was lent "gaffer" tape by stage crew to temporarily repair them. We ran out and I went to the hardware store to replace it. I asked for gaffer tape and was given black duct tape manufactured by "Duck".

I was able to tear sections off using my nails only, but others tore sections off with their teeth. I have wondered if the duct tape edge was tested for DNA.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Good point. I am assuming that Burke's knife may have been used But wasn’t there some discussion years back about possible DNA testing on the rope?

 

[Britt]

Doberson has the proof with a high degree of medical certainty that a stun gun was in fact used...

And even if he is correct, so what? How does that prove the Ramseys weren't involved? Yeah, I know, they say they don't own a stun gun and the cops didn't find one (though they did find related material - the video). Again, so what? It could've belonged to a friend, or another person involved in the crime, or it could've been removed from the home. How does a stun gun PROVE that a Ramsey wasn't involved in the crime and/or cover-up?

And WHY wouldn't they exhume and prove it, especially after all the trouble their investigators went to to conjure up the theory in the first place?

 

[Jayelles]

This computer geek guy was present during Patsy's 2000 Atlanta Interview.

How odd!

 

[Enola]

Have you seen any of the tv weekly magazines? Could you get hold of a TV times and confirm for me that there is a photo of Lou Smit in it with the caption "Probing: Detective Lou Smit (far left) believes Michael Helgoth (left) and an accomplice killed JonBenet".

I ignored the comment about the immigrants. I didn't want to dignify it by acknowledging it. Some of my best students have been immigrants.

Hi Jay, my sister is popping it round later - so I'll give you the page and reference.

By the way Lou is also named as the main protagonist in this programme by UK digi-guide

here

"In "Real Crime: Who Killed the Pageant Queen?" ITV reveals exactly what happened in the Ramsey home that night, using secret police evidence.

"Lou Smit, the most experienced murder detective to investigate the crime, admits that revealing secret police evidence is the hardest thing he has ever done, but justice for JonBenét demands it. Her killing, he says, is the most brutal he has encountered."

 

[Barbara]

Doberson has the proof with a high degree of medical certainty that a stun gun was in fact used,

Sorry Maikai, having a theory is not PROOF. He has a "high degree of medical certainty" but even Dr. Doberson wouldn't put his reputation on the line and swear it was a stun gun.

and he should know---he missed stun gun marks in the Boggs case, and when he went back and did his homework, the stun gun found in a suspects trunk matched stun gun marks on the victim.

So it is evident he has made mistakes and with all due respect to him, he also is not afraid to admit that. He also states, which you omitted, that without seeing the actual body, he can't swear that they are stun gun marks.

Doberson didn't just come up with this off the top of his head. He researched world-wide studies, and did his own experiments on a pig---pigs are commonly used for medical research because they have a lot of similarities to humans--not just their skin, but other systems if the body. The photos of the marks on Bogg's face are similar to those found on JBR, which shows one of the prones was not firmly pushed into her face. Stun gun marks also fade within hours in most cases---JBR was murdered soon after the stun gun was used.

It has been shown time and time again, that the marks do not line up as stun gun marks.

Dr. Doberson is one "expert" who "thinks" they are stun gun marks.

We have other "expertS" who think they are NOT stun gun marks.

Why would you take one experts opinion over the others?

Now we have experts who cancel each other out, only there are more experts willing to testify that they are NOT stun gun marks than that they ARE stun gun marks.

The experts who feel they are NOT have seen the actual body.

Why do you feel Dr. Doberson is correct and the others are all wrong?

AND....so what if they are? Why in the world, for the umpteenth time does the use of a stun gun exonerate the Ramseys? I don't get it. They are the only ones that we know of that even had a stun gun video!

At 50 years old, I don't know a single person who owns anything connected to the use of a stun gun (and I know a lot of people in a lot of circumstances). I find it extremely odd that they even owned a video. In Spanish no less!

Stun gun or no stun gun....proves nothing one way or the other in regard to the Ramseys. It actually gives more fuel to the Burke did it theorists.

 

[Jayelles]

Hi Jay, my sister is popping it round later - so I'll give you the page and reference.

By the way Lou is also named as the main protagonist in this programme by UK digi-guide

here

"In "Real Crime: Who Killed the Pageant Queen?" ITV reveals exactly what happened in the Ramsey home that night, using secret police evidence.

"Lou Smit, the most experienced murder detective to investigate the crime, admits that revealing secret police evidence is the hardest thing he has ever done, but justice for JonBenét demands it. Her killing, he says, is the most brutal he has encountered."

Thank you. I have the TV Times, but I've been accused of being wrong about this so it would be great to have some independent confirmation on this I just want you to confirm what it says.

The above Real Crime reference from Digiguide is referring to the last documentary which Lou Smit DID appear on. Seemingly he isn't "personally" in the new one, but the article in the TV Times gives the impression that he is.

 

[Cherokee]

... LOL. Tracey calls himself an academic and yet he is happy to be quoted on his response to jamesons's twisted logic without checking out what she said first!

Well, well, well.

Michael Tracey just proved he has no credibility. His unprovoked attack (via his friend Jameson) on Jay's informative, and unbiased, reporting of the magazine extracts was both unnecessary and sarcastic. He is obviously feeling threatened if he has to resort to snide comments and petty insults.

Jay merely reported what the magazine said. It mentioned Lou Smit in conjunction with the forthcoming documentary.

Such a firestorm of protest from Mr. Tracey is a bit much. Me thinks we may have opened a can of worms labeled "Smit Leaks Info But Everyone Must Deny It."

Tracey said, "THIS IS NONSENSE - YOU CAN QUOTE ME ON THAT - LOU SMIT WAS NOT INVOLOVED IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM IN MAKING OUR DOCUMENTARY AND THEREFORE CANNOT HAVE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT MICHAEL HELGOTH."

Your sentence, Mr. Tracey, is the real nonsense. It's meaningless double talk.

Lou Smit may not have actually filmed footage, or edited footage, or even be shown talking through both sides of his mouth ... but that doesn't mean he is innocent of leaking information. Notice, Tracey doesn't SAY that.

Tracey says Lou Smit "cannot have said anything about Michael Helgoth." Cannot? Can not have said? Can not have said on record and in public perhaps?

Notice. Tracey didn't say Lou Smit "did not say" anything about Helgoth. He said Lou Smit "cannot have said." Big difference.

Maybe Lou Smit didn't have anything to do with Tracey's new documentary. But why go to such great lengths to deny his involvement?

Shoo-ey! This can of worms stinks.



IMO

 

[Jayelles]

You are quite right of course. It was an oddly phrased sentence and one which makes little sense.

I guess we'll soon find out whether the documentary mentions anything about Lou Smit and what he thinks about Helgoth. It's possible that the writer of the article has made an error but without seeing the documentary, how is anyone supposed to know that it's incorrect?

Tracey should know better than to shoot the messenger. In fact, he obviously didn't check any facts before running off his mouth and telling jameson she could quote him - that doesn't say much for his judgement.

I will say one thing for the author of this article. She has presented a balanced coverage of the case. :-

The murder shocked America but, due to an investigation by the local police department in Boulder, Colorado, that many allege was bungled, nobody has yet been brought to justice. There are two theories: that Jon Benet was killed by her parents, John and Patsy, or by an intruder.

The most damning evidence against the Ramseys is that a ransom note found at the scene had been written on one of their pads and `practised' on the same pad. Handwriting experts have not eliminated Patsy as the note's author.

Suspicion reached fever pitch pitch when, immediately after their daughter's death, millionaire John, now 60 and Patsy, 47, hired high-powered lawyers, declined to take lie detector tests and refused to co-operate with police in other ways.

She also concludes with point that the Ramseys have not been officially eliminated from the investigation and she discusses his current political campaign too.

It isn't a BORG article, it is simple unbiased.

 

[Enola]

Have you seen any of the tv weekly magazines? Could you get hold of a TV times and confirm for me that there is a photo of Lou Smit in it with the caption "Probing: Detective Lou Smit (far left) believes Michael Helgoth (left) and an accomplice killed JonBenet".

I ignored the comment about the immigrants. I didn't want to dignify it by acknowledging it. Some of my best students have been immigrants.

Okay, TV TIMES 12-18th June (David Beckham on the cover). On pages 22-23 ,right slap-bang in the centre is a photograph of Lou and quotes either side saying (on the left of picture) "We now have evidence that will tell you who the killer is" and on the right "Probing detective Lou Smit (far left) believes Michael Helgoth (left) and an accomplice killed Jonbenet."

I will gladly scan or even post a hard copy to any one calling Jay a liar. It's no good Tracy stamping his feet, that is what it says in one of the most popular magazines in the UK. If he wants to have a tantrum about "disinformation" he should start with whoever is doing his company's PR.