Found Deceased NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 *Arrest* #2

[Kikixxxx]

I just hope the jury doesn't lose respect for Grace because she had a sexual fetish they find distasteful.

Grace didn't go back to his room to die.
He needs to be held accountable. He strangled her to death and took photos of her dead body, it didn't faze him until he had to figure out how to get her body out of the room and get away with murder! Jmo

I’m with u 100% I hope the jury see it this way too

 

[Mariposa]

I come back to all the blood in that room. Prosecution medical expert says bloody nose rare from strangulation. So does defense expert. IMO he did other injurious things to Grace, that decomp of her body prevented a full picture of. But forensic evidence in the hotel room points to.

Because even out and out premeditated strangulation murders do not cause blood to fly and soak carpets.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

He's pleading Not Guilty, right? And his defence is presenting his case for Not Guilty to the jury. If the jury agrees with his defence, they would declare him Not Guilty. That would mean he was acquitted.

Is that incorrect in some factual way?

I'd be shocked if he were acquitted and walked out the courtroom a free man.

Imo, he'll be found guilty but serve the lowest sentence that can be handed down, I could be wrong, it's in the hands of the jury now.

 

[Satchie]

I just hope the jury doesn't lose respect for Grace because she had a sexual fetish they find distasteful.

Grace didn't go back to his room to die.
He needs to be held accountable. He strangled her to death and took photos of her dead body, it didn't faze him until he had to figure out how to get her body out of the room and get away with murder! Jmo

I hope trials are based on evidence, not on opinions about the goodness or badness of the people involved.

The issue of consent, as well as intent, comes up, IMO, in every case of intimate partner sexual assault. Sometimes it's easy to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no consent/there was intent to harm. But in some cases it isn't so clear and that potentially introduces a 'reasonable doubt' in evaluating the prosecution's evidence.

 

[kiwilaura]

I always remember something @gitana said on here - it's beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond ALL doubt.
The prosecutor is doing a good job of the cross examination of the pathologist. It needs to be reiterated over and over that it takes minutes with your hands round someone's neck to kill them, not a momentary lapse of concentration.

 

[sunnynz]

Wow I’m very worried now about whether he’ll be found guilty of murder. From my experience on a jury, you can get people who are very easily swayed by emotion and prejudice who struggle to stick with facts. The testimony about Grace’s sexual preferences could definitely have an impact. I just hope there is someone really into it who’s been appointed foreman and who can guide the deliberations.

If I had to put money on it, right now I’d be betting he gets off

 

[kiwilaura]

Just saw Patrick Frazee found guilty of murdering Kelsey Berreth and he has been sentenced. Made me think of something to tell you.

For those of you not familiar with the NZ judicial process, after the jury's verdict, it will be some months before he is sentenced. He will be remanded in custory for sentencing at a later date.

 

[Mariposa]

Just saw Patrick Frazee found guilty of murdering Kelsey Berreth and he has been sentenced. Made me think of something to tell you.

For those of you not familiar with the NZ judicial process, after the jury's verdict, it will be some months before he is sentenced. He will be remanded in custory for sentencing at a later date.

Can I ask, if convicted, at what point if ever name suppression is likely to be lifted?

If acquitted — could name be permanently suppressed?

 

[Mariposa]

IMO
This is a bit of a worrisome point scored here for the defense re alcohol as contributing factor/co-factor with neck pressure. Because there was apparently a large amount consumed over just a few hours. I had thought on the prosecution case they dealt with that well by pointing out Grace wasn’t stumbling etc in elevator footage so wouldn’t be expected to be losing consciousness from alcohol. But this could be compelling to jurors

Grace Millane murder trial: Accused won't take the witness stand in defence case

Earlier, forensic pathologist Dr David Fintan Garavan told the court the alcohol Grace consumed on the night she died would have contributed to her death.
But Dickey referred back to evidence given by the Crown's pathologist, Dr Simon Stables, who said it wouldn't have had an impact.

"My point is, Stables has indicated that he doesn't agree with you on the proposition that alcohol is affecting the "bounce back" response during strangulation. Because at the point where blood alcohol is affecting breathing, the person would be unconscious," Dickey said.

Garavan maintained he was very happy with his personal assessment about the contributing factors in Grace's death.
“I have a PhD in toxicology, he doesn't,” he said.

 

[kiwilaura]

Can I ask, if convicted, at what point if ever name suppression is likely to be lifted?

If acquitted — could name be permanently suppressed?

In almost all cases name suppression is lifted after the verdict along with the reasons for suppression. Usually you find out that they’ve been convicted of other horrible crimes. But it’s rare for someone to have suppression through a trial so in my mind it must be pretty bad.

If found not guilty of murder he will be found guilty of manslaughter. I’m fairly certain the jury will be asked to choose between those two verdicts.

In very rare cases name suppression is made permanent but it’s usually to protect the victim. It’s obviously too late for that! The other time it could continue is if he is currently awaiting trial for other charges.

 

[kiwilaura]

Also prepare yourselves for low sentences. In NZ for murder you’re looking at an absolute max of about 22 years. In this case could be more like 18, with parole after 12. Maybe slightly lower.

If he gets manslaughter it’ll be more like 7-9 and out in 4-6.

 

[Mariposa]

Wow I’m very worried now about whether he’ll be found guilty of murder. From my experience on a jury, you can get people who are very easily swayed by emotion and prejudice who struggle to stick with facts. The testimony about Grace’s sexual preferences could definitely have an impact. I just hope there is someone really into it who’s been appointed foreman and who can guide the deliberations.

If I had to put money on it, right now I’d be betting he gets off

I am now feeling about the same way re likely murder verdict worrying the following defense theories could be compelling to jury:

1) GM was into neck pressure during sex, per a friend and an ex partner, not just per accused; and she was on a BDSM specific site shortly before her Tinder date with accused indicating it was on her mind and 2)GM was highly intoxicated and per defense expert that could have interacted with the pressure on neck to cause death. Of course the prosecution med expert said alcohol not likely to contribute but I’m afraid the defense pathologist might have been more credible if the jury went for his ‘I’m a toxicologist the other guy isn’t’ line

Although if choking is a popular sex practice I’m sure a number of the women being choked are drunk at times and people aren’t dropping like flies from it. Hopefully that point is made as well

news said defense may wrap up tomorrow-Wonder if prosecution will put on rebuttal witnesses—assume that’s allowed in this case?

 

[seadawg]

I really don't think her interest in BDSM renders him any less culpable and I'm struggling to understand why they feel it is relevant to the case, especially when the undertones are 'she asked for it' which is completely victim blaming despite them claiming not to be doing this. If someone told me that it really turned them on to play Russian roulette with a gun, to accept the challenge would be entering in to that with an awareness that someone might get seriously hurt. There is a world of difference between hands gripping the neck and strangling someone to death.
My opinion is that just for a moment, with his judgement compromised by alcohol, he wondered what it would be like if he didn't let go. To see what would happen. Then when she passed away, he freaked out. He should have called an ambulance straight away as soon as he realised she wasn't breathing. In my eyes he is absolutely guilty of murder. I hope the jury make the right decision....

 

[Edinlass]

Had he phoned the police when it initially happened I believe they may have put this down to an accident. Due to his actions following Graces death I think he will be charged with manslaughter and surely movement / handling of a corpse (not sure of the legal term). I don’t think he meant to kill her, that’s just my opinion now listening to the evidence. I also believe, had he got away with this he wouldn’t care. He’s still a sociopath lacking in any true remorse who went too far and should be given a hefty sentence just for his total disregard toward Graces body.

 

[jamjim]

"4:25pm - Court proceedings have now finished for the day. The Defence has indicated it will finish its case on Wednesday afternoon.

Wednesday's hearing will begin at 9am, rather than the usual 10am start."

BBM!

Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence opens case, calls witnesses

 

[jamjim]

"3:55pm - In regard to the bruises the pathologist earlier suggested could have been from restraints, Dr Garavan says he can’t say whether this was from consensual or non-consensual restraint.

Dr Stables said last week some bruises on the mid-arm may have been caused by fingers, but Dr Garavan says that isn’t the conclusion he would have come to.

He tells the court they were likely caused by some sort of restraint or compression.

He says it makes sense that if someone’s arms had been restrained, there wouldn’t be defensive injuries on the neck from the person trying to claw away at someone else’s hands.

Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence opens case, calls witnesses

 

[Mariposa]

Hopefully in the courtroom the gulf between a man strangling a woman to death vs engaging in consensual neck pressure will be abundantly clear. I wonder on the age demographics of the jury. If this practice is much more common in younger people and older people are unfamiliar might they not underestimate the difference in force and duration of the pressure applied.

Everything about the accused's actions following the death scream total contempt for Grace. Especially the photos he took. What kind of person has that reaction when they accidentally kill someone? Wait a minute, let me grab some images of her private parts and feet before I dispose of her. It is very depraved.

 

[mrjitty]

I always remember something @gitana said on here - it's beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond ALL doubt.
The prosecutor is doing a good job of the cross examination of the pathologist. It needs to be reiterated over and over that it takes minutes with your hands round someone's neck to kill them, not a momentary lapse of concentration.

Exactly - and in particular wild speculation is not reasonable doubt

 

[mrjitty]

He can’t be acquitted of killing her. He can be found not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter. He has admitted he has killed her but is pleading not guilty to the specific charge of murder. He basically can’t be let off a manslaughter charge as he has said he knows he caused her death, he just didn’t mean it.

Yes - Manslaughter is the minimum verdict.

Under s 160(3) of the NZ Crimes Act 1961, a culpable homicide must be either murder or manslaughter (subject to limited exceptions which don't apply here)

So if the intention for murder is not met, then it will be manslaughter due to the killing by unlawful act.

Basically a negligent killing falling short of murder.

 

[mrjitty]

I wonder why that second statement is suppressed....

Also, can NZ legally force someone abroad to give a written statement? I don’t know if I’d freely offer information that could aid my friends killer in court..

I am guessing what will have happened is that police spoke to Millane's friends and ex in the context of their investigation. These people gave sworn statements to the police - this is completely common and normal and typically such people want to help the police in their inquiries.

The defence then got the statements as part of discovery, and have now produced them in Court