Found Deceased NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 *Arrest* #2

[Tortoise]

rsbm
I'm preparing for disappointment.

I'm not. I think he will be swiftly convicted of murder on the evidence we've heard about.

 

[Grapey]

Good point. Here is an example to think about it. What if a friend is drunk and asks you to punch him for a laugh as a dare. You hit him, but stronger than you thought as you were inebriated and have been working out at a gym for a few months and didnt realise how strong you were, and also they hit their head on the ground and die. That is reckless, but encouraged recklessness. Is that murder or manslaughter.

Not comparable IMO. One punch is a one action manoeuvre. Grace would have had to have upwards of 2 minutes (IIRC?) of sustained pressure around her neck. He would have seen her struggling. He would have had multiple chances to stop.

MOOOOO

 

[Sleuthyinvestigator]

The evidence is intended to help the jury of seven women and five men determine what happened inside the CityLife hotel between the night of December 1 and morning of December 2, 2018.

Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence's overseas witnesses stream into court

The accused taking the stand would help the jury significantly if his claims are true, it's strange that he won't, imo. I know it shouldn't be held against him but it doesn't seem fair as Grace's sex life and preferences are used against her.

I'm preparing for disappointment.

So you are already bias without listening to facts. Also, a lot of you are making out it is rape, when provided with the evidence, it most likely wasn't, once again a lot of peeps using emotive reasons, "*advertiser censored* shaming" etc

Whereas I think it shows a pattern of behaviour, if she had a one night stand the night before after kissing the guy watching a movie, from the CCTV evidence, and seeing her happy and kissing the accused, it would most likely been that she would not have rejected his advances. So why if a girl is happy with you would you then go that step further. What we also now know is that there might have been a reasonable chance that she wanted some BDSM and rough sex with him, particularly as she seemed so enamoured with him, her friend also said she seemed to like big strong dominant guys. Also when you are hooking up for one-night stands and drinking a lot, you might sometimes get hooked into emotions at the moment, perhaps she missed the rough sex from a previous boyfriend and the sex the previous night was unsatisfactory.


What is unusual is to have a homicide when there isn't a rape, or breakup etc.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I've actually seen this game played by the rugby lads in the pub when I was a student. A guy hit his mate rather too hard, and the guy's head slammed down on the table as he crumpled. No one died that goodness. Had the guy died, it might not even be manslaughter because potentially there is no assault. There was consent to the punch.

In any event, there is a critical, critical point of analysis here, and I am going to use reference to the Pistorius trial and the core common law concept of "Dolus eventualis"

In Pistorius he fired 4 shots "at a door". But the point is, anyone knows as a matter of common sense, if you shoot at someone with a gun, they may die. So logically, if they do die, you understood that possibility but did it intentionally - so its murder. Even if you did not mean to kill them, you intentionally did an illegal act, knowing they might die

In your example, the attacker, may not subjectively (i.e. actually) have foreseen that punching his mate might kill him. So those fight cases are treated as manslaughter. Whereas kicking a guy on the ground in the head might well be charged as murder as you "must have known the risks" (but note consent might mean there is no assault/illegal act)

In NZ, we codified this concept, in the Crimes Act



So in my highly overvalued opinion, because he caused a bodily injury, and knows extended strangulation can likely cause death, and was reckless about that possibility, it is clearly murder even if you accept all the defence facts

This is so well explained to my bunged-up sniffly cold head, thank you

 

[CrazyLilBlondie]

What a complex case. From following the story before her body was even found, to now the last day in court, its such a wave of emotions and roller-coaster news and facts! Ever changing opinions of all involved, some personal bias and causing a lot of self reflection also (self indulgent, yes!).

Only thing i know for sure if that that man is a habitual liar and should not be allowed around women ever again and what he did after Grace's death is appalling.

I still want to know what the fact was that the judge said at the very beginning on the case that was out there that was completely false...!

 

[Tortoise]

Closing statements will be presented on Thursday by the defence and Crown. Justice Simon Moore will then give his summary on Friday before the jury begin their deliberations.

Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence's overseas witnesses stream into court

 

[Sleuthyinvestigator]

What a complex case. From following the story before her body was even found, to now the last day in court, its such a wave of emotions and roller-coaster news and facts! Ever changing opinions of all involved, some personal bias and causing a lot of self reflection also (self indulgent, yes!).

Only thing i know for sure if that that man is a habitual liar and should not be allowed around women ever again and what he did after Grace's death is appalling.

I still want to know what the fact was that the judge said at the very beginning on the case that was out there that was completely false...!

Yes he is dangerous, and perhaps leading on to the path of a serial killer.

 

[Jaw]

If the outcome is muder rather than manslaughter, when would he be out again?

 

[bluebird69]

With all the evidence we have I really cannot see The jury verdict being anything other than rapid unanimous guilty of murder imo.

 

[CrazyLilBlondie]

Closing statements will be presented on Thursday by the defence and Crown. Justice Simon Moore will then give his summary on Friday before the jury begin their deliberations.

How do they determine the order of closing statements? I would assume that the Crown going on the Friday would favor their case for those that are undecided in the jury.

 

[Kikixxxx]

How do they determine the order of closing statements? I would assume that the Crown going on the Friday would favor their case for those that are undecided in the jury.

I thought it was always the crown then the defence, the benefit has to always go to the accused I thought. But I have very limited knowledge of law...

 

[Tortoise]

Yes the Crown goes first.

 

[DanceCard]

The closing speeches will be interesting, although especially for this case, I'm more interested in the judge's summing up.

 

[jaejae]

Here is another BBC report:

Defence closes in Grace Millane murder trial

 

[Elainera]

Closing statements will be presented on Thursday by the defence and Crown. Justice Simon Moore will then give his summary on Friday before the jury begin their deliberations.

Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence's overseas witnesses stream into court

I wonder if the defence then finally will address the central and most important issue and explain clearly how it is an accident (which is what he claims it was) to pressure someone's neck for minutes until they are dead.

So far they haven't done that.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

So you are already bias without listening to facts. Also, a lot of you are making out it is rape, when provided with the evidence, it most likely wasn't, once again a lot of peeps using emotive reasons, "*advertiser censored* shaming" etc

Whereas I think it shows a pattern of behaviour, if she had a one night stand the night before after kissing the guy watching a movie, from the CCTV evidence, and seeing her happy and kissing the accused, it would most likely been that she would not have rejected his advances. So why if a girl is happy with you would you then go that step further. What we also now know is that there might have been a reasonable chance that she wanted some BDSM and rough sex with him, particularly as she seemed so enamoured with him, her friend also said she seemed to like big strong dominant guys. Also when you are hooking up for one-night stands and drinking a lot, you might sometimes get hooked into emotions at the moment, perhaps she missed the rough sex from a previous boyfriend and the sex the previous night was unsatisfactory.


What is unusual is to have a homicide when there isn't a rape, or breakup etc.

No one is making out it was rape.

The witness who was nearly smothered to death by the accused was made out to be lying by the defence and then, we're suppose to believe it was Grace who was the only person into bdsm/choking, so the accused choked Grace against his will? He was so distraught he had to take pictures of her naked body and watch *advertiser censored*?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I wonder if the defence then finally will address the central and most important issue and explain clearly how it is an accident (which is what he claims it was) to pressure someone's neck for minutes until they are dead.

So far they haven't done that.

I agree, the defence have done a poor job of clearing the accused, which is why it's strange he's not taking the stand. He's such a liar, he'd probably make up a new version of what happened on the spot.

I'm concerned the defence have placed Grace's death at her own door, she made a bad judgement call, played with fire and the accused was like a bystander! I don't buy it but some here, obviously do. The jury may come to the same conclusion or not.

 

[asyousay]

Even if Grace did want to be choked that night as some kind of sexual kink it doesn’t explain away how he would of had to have choked her for awhile before she would of passed out , turned blue and died.


So at some point he would of noticed the signs and stopped. But he didn’t so that’s on him and that makes him solely responsible here.

IMO

 

[Ched]

Catching up , it’s a lot to take in . If ever there was a case of hindsight that chap should be having it now .... just phoned an ambulance that night if not guilty and it was an accident.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

On a slightly more positive note. Normally on threads we have a varying amount of debate re the charges/outcome. In this case, I don't think I've seen that any of us would not find guilty ofmurder if we were on the jury. Although obviously there's been a lot of discussion re when manslaughter applies vs murder etc.

So on that basis, hopefully the jury will see it that way too and whatever shade they've tried to throw on the poor girl's memory, he will get a big fat GUILTY!