GUILTY NH - AH, 14, North Conway, 9 October 2013 - #14

[lawstudent]

Thanks, lawstudent. Gotta say, I have loved reading your posts; compassionate, but never neglecting truthful detail. "Gimme the facts, only the facts!" lol. I <3 Joe Friday.

ETA: How'd the bar exam go?

Don't mean to derail Abby's thread, but it wasn't bad. However, I messed up timing and ended up leaving some blank at the end on all the sections, which isn't good. Not sure what to think. Better to be mediocre throughout than uneven as I was, in general. But certainly after studying or working in law, it's hard to ignore inaccuracy, because there's really not such a thing as "close enough" in a lot of legal work. Tiny procedural things can make huge differences, and the way evidence is presented can completely change the story.

ETA: Like "on his record" and "criminal record." That's only going to list police activity, and of course a background check will reveal what resulted in conviction and what didn't. What someone did, what is in a police report, what they were arrested for, what they were charged with, and what they were convicted of are all different, and can result in different media reports. Someone can end up being arrested on one charge and ultimately be tried for a totally different one. Police reports can state someone did something, but turn out to be totally erroneous. That's why it is important the reporters and the public understand the differences, and why the media must be sure to convey things accurately.

 

[tlcya]

I guess I just don't take the media too seriously and let it decide what is lengthy or disturbing. I read all I can of the coverage and land where I land as to what is fact and what is sensationalism to bump a headline or a soundbite. I kind of read past that to find the actual facts behind the soundbite.

 

[mpnola]

Snipped the rest of your comments just for brevity not because they were not valid but, rest assured, the whole community of North Conway area doesn't waste their time or energy posting online. Abby has a ton of support, it's just not by people who feel compelled to get in a battle online. I know this support personally because of the flood of emails I get, the number of people who have stopped me in stores (complete strangers), who are all so happy she is home. Negativity was always there but so has been the amazing support too.

Whenever you get too, too stressed about online vitriol, go pick a random article not related to Abby and read the comments. There are just some people who only know how to be miserable. Social media allowed us to keep Abby's story out there- unfortunately there are downsides to it as well. As they say, all magic has its price.

In the end, Abby is home. No comment can ever, ever take that away from this family and that is all that matters.

That is so true! I am from New Orleans and every time there is an article about New Orleans the comments are HOOOOORRIBLE! So horrible that I can't believe there are even human beings that would wish such horrible things on an entire group of people. That puts those comments in perspective some.

Also, I just wanted to say that it was so incredibly nice to have you as an insider on this case. I could not be more overjoyed with the outcome for Abby, her family, you, Amanda and the entire community. It is an outcome that is rare and I am glad it was a reality for such wonderful people!

 

[lawstudent]

I guess I just don't take the media too seriously and let it decide what is lengthy or disturbing. I read all I can of the coverage and land where I land as to what is fact and what is sensationalism to bump a headline or a soundbite. I kind of read past that to find the actual facts behind the soundbite.

Same - the problem is I don't think most people are great at filtering this stuff out. Or at least most people I run into are not. They recognize that there are silly soundbites, but can't figure out what info is coming from where. That's the question that always needs to be asked. Oftentimes I see press conferences where journalists throw out every rumor they have heard at the police, and the police respond "we have heard that and are investigating and it is ongoing." And then the press runs with the headline that police are investigating the most salacious rumor of the bunch, presenting it as a solid police theory. Figuring out those distinctions when the press doesn't make it clear is half the battle. Usually I have to do quite a bit of googling to figure out the original context.

 

[OkieGranny]

http://www.wmur.com/news/conway-pol...-runins-with-nathaniel-kibby/27294166#!bvfsCL

Former Conway Lt. Chris Perley, who left the force in April after 29 years, has known 34-year-old Nathaniel Kibby since the kidnapping suspect was 12 years old...

Perley said his most recent dealing with Kibby was over a summons for running a red light. "He thought he should be entitled to (run the light) because he went to work at such early hours," Perley said.

"He was smart, but he was also brutally myopic in whatever view he had," Perley said. "You could not shake him or redirect him in the way he saw the world."

 

[OkieGranny]

http://www.reformer.com/news/ci_26269597/cop-man-charged-teen-s-kidnap-loves-conflict

The man charged with kidnapping a teenager nine months ago is very bright, has strong opinions, and thrives on conflict, according to a police officer who had two decades of contact with him...

Particularly disturbing, Perley said, was an arrest in March when Kibby was charged with criminal trespass and assault after following a Conway woman to her home after a minor car accident. Police said he pushed her to the ground in her driveway after she ordered him to stop taking pictures of her car. "I remember thinking that was so over the top," Perley said. "You don't go to their home and get into a chest-bumping situation, especially with a woman"...

But Perley said nothing foreshadowed the kidnapping allegations. "You're always hoping it's some stranger and that evil doesn't live in your midst," Perley said. "Certainly nothing he'd ever done would lead you to believe this is what he would do. If it is true, the depravity of the man knows no limits."

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Originally Posted by lawstudent

Originally Posted by tlcya
I guess I just don't take the media too seriously and let it decide what is lengthy or disturbing. I read all I can of the coverage and land where I land as to what is fact and what is sensationalism to bump a headline or a soundbite. I kind of read past that to find the actual facts behind the soundbite.

Same - the problem is I don't think most people are great at filtering this stuff out. Or at least most people I run into are not. They recognize that there are silly soundbites, but can't figure out what info is coming from where. That's the question that always needs to be asked. Oftentimes I see press conferences where journalists throw out every rumor they have heard at the police, and the police respond "we have heard that and are investigating and it is ongoing." And then the press runs with the headline that police are investigating the most salacious rumor of the bunch, presenting it as a solid police theory. Figuring out those distinctions when the press doesn't make it clear is half the battle. Usually I have to do quite a bit of googling to figure out the original context.

Yes, tlcya...your insight comes (at least partly) from your work in this field. But the average person doesn't have that advantage (and maybe your brains ). Plus, a lot of people don't take the time like we do on here to ferret out all the news on a topic in order to try to divide the wheat from the chaff. For example, in the WMUR article above posted by OkieGranny--nowhere in that article does it state why the charges were dropped. Yet, the former police lieutenant reports details of the incident as though they were all fact. Well...we don't know that. We know these facts:

1. There was a confrontation at the boyfriend's house (driveway) between TS and NK; yet the boyfriend of the woman involved has admitted he's not sure if she was assaulted or just lost her balance and fell down due to feeling intimidated:

Eric Ray, the other man involved in the accident, said Kibby had gone to his house after he served Kibby with small claims papers at Kibby&#8217;s job in Conway. He said Kibby either threatened/intimidated or hit/shoved Tammy Shackford, Ray&#8217;s girlfriend, causing her to slip and bruise her elbow.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...ighbors-say/xxTmpK9lpsVN1DfXVgtYoJ/story.html

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/07/...rnandez-kidnapping-has-long-criminal-history/

2. the woman went to the hospital for $500 worth of medical treatment (including x-rays) for what turned out to be a bruised elbow:

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/07/...rnandez-kidnapping-has-long-criminal-history/

http://www.georgianewsday.com/news/...nandez-alleged-kidnapper-nathaniel-kibby.html


I doubt they bothered with a lawyer for this small claims incident, but if I'd been her lawyer, I'd not have wanted her to testify. While I have no doubt she was scared and bruised, IMO she comes off as someone who is not only somewhat verbose, but who displays a tendency toward exaggeration--not purposefully, but because, JMO, she displays a high-strung and somewhat dramatic nature. For example, in her stories to the press she not only describes his scary eyes and her subsequent nightmares "every night for a week," but claims he pushed her down twice (not in the original police reports). In some news accounts she says she confronted him as he was 'rifling through' things in the cab of the truck, while police say he was taking pictures of the truck. While everything might be true, her inconsistent telling of it isn't a help in sorting out what happened. It's my guess that whoever was advising her knew this about her, and probably advised they drop the 'shoving' charges so as to retain the trespass ones. This is not said to discredit her experience of pain and fear at all; simply said to illustrate how, once again, "click me first" media has gone the way of the tabloids in just publishing stories without digging for the drab but documented facts that should accompany them.

 

[gitana1]

Well, where was Abby while that female in her 20's was there???

I don't know. Where were Michelle, Amanda and Gina when myriad neighbors and relatives came to castro's house when they were imprisoned there for decades? How about Jaycee Dugard when her perp's parole officer kept coming by?

I have been shocked about what's been said on the article comments since we first were celebrating AH's being home. I feel like the people are/were out for blood and they didn't get it. Now they're mad and they can say whatever they want on the interwebz.

When AH first went missing I was amazed, absolutely thrilled by the community involvement and their efforts to bring her home. There isn't a lot one can do, but supporting the family and remaining positive and doing whatever you can is great. They really went all out. AH's face was everywhere and people were making sure her story was heard.

The tune changed really fast when AH was home, for that first week all the condemnation and the rumors were insane! Even the former BF's dad going to the Daily Mail??!! When ZH came out and spoke to the media her comments where torn apart and condemned. Then a day later, an arrest. The sick freak who abducted a minor and held her captive for months was arrested! I expected to see her community once again circle the wagons around her. Instead, there were comments about her hair? HONESTLY?!?

I've held my fingers in check and I haven't posted a lot because AH is home. She is home with her mother and her sister and her furbabies. She is SAFE. She is ALIVE. I have many questions about the people who can go out and randomly post behind a computer and say awful things about a 15 year old girl after she is home safe, has bravely faced her abductor in court and is trying to heal.

Do these people not understand that between now and the sick *advertiser censored*'s court date there is a S**T ton of police work going on and that more charges will be brought? Do they not get it that a child has had to deal with talking to the police about things that an adult would be uncomfortable with? Does a single one of them give a thought to the fact that the internet is forever and the victim of these crimes could be reading every vile word they type??? Maybe they don't care. I hope these are not the same people that were so adamant about bringing AH home, but there are a lot of names that are the same, and now since they don't have it all wrapped up in a bow and know all the horrible details they are mad.

At least it appears that AH is smart enough to look beyond all that hate and ridiculous entitlement and knows that only an idiot would want the details of a case involving a minor being kidnapped and away from their family for over 9 months to be their personal gossip column.

ETA ALWAYS MOO

Bravo. Beautiful post.

You have no idea how this will affect her.

Neither do you. If you are insinuating that appearing triumphant, uncowed and courageous on the front page of a newspaper is fodder for her sick critics, that's their problem. If you are suggesting it gives fuel to the desperate arguments of Kibby's defense, I 100% disagree.

Certainly, the belief that this child should be protected from public scrutiny and should be allowed to maintain her privacy, is valid and well founded. If she were my child, I'd want to spirit her away from the public eye and protect her in a cocoon.

But what has been proven to help people, especially children, with trauma, is allowing them to have agency. Allowing them to have power over themselves and the decision-making when it comes to their dealing with society, is to give them back the voice that was taken.

Sure, adults wiser than they should oversee and guide them, but they need to be able to take the reins to a large degree.

Finally, I think we need to 100% stop with the societal attitude that victims need to be ashamed or that if they are not hiding, they didn't suffer enough. Abby has done nothing wrong here. She is the good guy. And she's showing the world that she was not destroyed.

To me, her photo is one of resilience, pride, determination, courage, strength, bravery, triumph and hope.

All I can say is, you go girl!!!

 

[J Block]

Yes, tlcya...your insight comes (at least partly) from your work in this field. But the average person doesn't have that advantage (and maybe your brains ). Plus, a lot of people don't take the time like we do on here to ferret out all the news on a topic in order to try to divide the wheat from the chaff. For example, in the WMUR article above posted by OkieGranny--nowhere in that article does it state why the charges were dropped. Yet, the former police lieutenant reports details of the incident as though they were all fact. Well...we don't know that. We know these facts:

1. There was a confrontation at the boyfriend's house (driveway) between TS and NK; yet the boyfriend of the woman involved has admitted he's not sure if she was assaulted or just lost her balance and fell down due to feeling intimidated:

Eric Ray, the other man involved in the accident, said Kibby had gone to his house after he served Kibby with small claims papers at Kibby’s job in Conway. He said Kibby either threatened/intimidated or hit/shoved Tammy Shackford, Ray’s girlfriend, causing her to slip and bruise her elbow.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...ighbors-say/xxTmpK9lpsVN1DfXVgtYoJ/story.html

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/07/...rnandez-kidnapping-has-long-criminal-history/

2. the woman went to the hospital for $500 worth of medical treatment (including x-rays) for what turned out to be a bruised elbow:

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/07/...rnandez-kidnapping-has-long-criminal-history/

http://www.georgianewsday.com/news/...nandez-alleged-kidnapper-nathaniel-kibby.html


I doubt they bothered with a lawyer for this small claims incident, but if I'd been her lawyer, I'd not have wanted her to testify. While I have no doubt she was scared and bruised, IMO she comes off as someone who is not only somewhat verbose, but who displays a tendency toward exaggeration--not purposefully, but because, JMO, she displays a high-strung and somewhat dramatic nature. For example, in her stories to the press she not only describes his scary eyes and her subsequent nightmares "every night for a week," but claims he pushed her down twice (not in the original police reports). In some news accounts she says she confronted him as he was 'rifling through' things in the cab of the truck, while police say he was taking pictures of the truck. While everything might be true, her inconsistent telling of it isn't a help in sorting out what happened. It's my guess that whoever was advising her knew this about her, and probably advised they drop the 'shoving' charges so as to retain the trespass ones. This is not said to discredit her experience of pain and fear at all; simply said to illustrate how, once again, "click me first" media has gone the way of the tabloids in just publishing stories without digging for the drab but documented facts that should accompany them.

I think your assessment of said victim is spot on. MOO.

 

[gitana1]

Don't mean to derail Abby's thread, but it wasn't bad. However, I messed up timing and ended up leaving some blank at the end on all the sections, which isn't good. Not sure what to think. Better to be mediocre throughout than uneven as I was, in general. But certainly after studying or working in law, it's hard to ignore inaccuracy, because there's really not such a thing as "close enough" in a lot of legal work. Tiny procedural things can make huge differences, and the way evidence is presented can completely change the story.


ETA: Like "on his record" and "criminal record." That's only going to list police activity, and of course a background check will reveal what resulted in conviction and what didn't. What someone did, what is in a police report, what they were arrested for, what they were charged with, and what they were convicted of are all different, and can result in different media reports. Someone can end up being arrested on one charge and ultimately be tried for a totally different one. Police reports can state someone did something, but turn out to be totally erroneous. That's why it is important the reporters and the public understand the differences, and why the media must be sure to convey things accurately.

I noticed that those who were certain they passed the test, hadn't. I myself was convinced I failed. During the multistate, I resorted to guessing during the last half hour or longer. I felt totally over it. And there were a couple essays that I just bs'd my way through.

So convinced was I that I failed, that when the results came out, I kept, apparently, punching the numbers in wrong ( to check). The results come out privately on a Friday evening and publicly on Sunday. My results kept saying either I punched the numbers in wrong or had failed. I tried several times, numerous combinations. So, it was clear I had failed.

It was horrible. All my fellow classmates were calling to congratulate or console each other and I had to be consoled. I went the whole night and next day and night in misery.

Then, at 5:30 am, Sunday morning, a friend called and screamed, "You idiot!! You passed! Your name is on the list!"

Idiot is right. But I passed and I think you did too.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Great post, gitana1. My hubby thought he'd failed his boards, too (not unusual to have to take them more than once). But he didn't. We're all rooting for you, lawstudent!

 

[Not Without Peril]

I noticed that those who were certain they passed the test, hadn't. I myself was convinced I failed. During the multistate, I resorted to guessing during the last half hour or longer. I felt totally over it. And there were a couple essays that I just bs'd my way through.

So convinced was I that I failed, that when the results came out, I kept, apparently, punching the numbers in wrong ( to check). The results come out privately on a Friday evening and publicly on Sunday. My results kept saying either I punched the numbers in wrong or had failed. I tried several times, numerous combinations. So, it was clear I had failed.

It was horrible. All my fellow classmates were calling to congratulate or console each other and I had to be consoled. I went the whole night and next day and night in misery.

Then, at 5:30 am, Sunday morning, a friend called and screamed, "You idiot!! You passed! Your name is on the list!"

Idiot is right. But I passed and I think you did too.

For me, although I felt confident that I had passed the bar, there were one or two people who I would have bet money would fail, and they passed. Of course, I am in pass-achusetts. .

 

[AnaTeresa]

Don't mean to derail Abby's thread, but it wasn't bad. However, I messed up timing and ended up leaving some blank at the end on all the sections, which isn't good. Not sure what to think. Better to be mediocre throughout than uneven as I was, in general. But certainly after studying or working in law, it's hard to ignore inaccuracy, because there's really not such a thing as "close enough" in a lot of legal work. Tiny procedural things can make huge differences, and the way evidence is presented can completely change the story.

ETA: Like "on his record" and "criminal record." That's only going to list police activity, and of course a background check will reveal what resulted in conviction and what didn't. What someone did, what is in a police report, what they were arrested for, what they were charged with, and what they were convicted of are all different, and can result in different media reports. Someone can end up being arrested on one charge and ultimately be tried for a totally different one. Police reports can state someone did something, but turn out to be totally erroneous. That's why it is important the reporters and the public understand the differences, and why the media must be sure to convey things accurately.

Just count yourself lucky you didn't have any ExamSoft issues! I was freaking out all last year that my computer would crash or some other catastrophe. My heart sank for all the people with software issues this year.

I'm sure you'll have done well - leaving things blank isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[atthelake]

I noticed that those who were certain they passed the test, hadn't. I myself was convinced I failed. During the multistate, I resorted to guessing during the last half hour or longer. I felt totally over it. And there were a couple essays that I just bs'd my way through.

So convinced was I that I failed, that when the results came out, I kept, apparently, punching the numbers in wrong ( to check). The results come out privately on a Friday evening and publicly on Sunday. My results kept saying either I punched the numbers in wrong or had failed. I tried several times, numerous combinations. So, it was clear I had failed.

It was horrible. All my fellow classmates were calling to congratulate or console each other and I had to be consoled. I went the whole night and next day and night in misery.

Then, at 5:30 am, Sunday morning, a friend called and screamed, "You idiot!! You passed! Your name is on the list!"

Idiot is right. But I passed and I think you did too.

Yeah! Now we can refer to you as our loveable contributing WS Idiot :happydance:

:grouphug: to gitana and lawstudent :grouphug: I've heard that the failure rate for the bar is very high.... here's a :toast: that you don't have to take the exam again and you will join us forever as a verified atty!!! :blowkiss:

Wonder if lawstudent will remember us little folks when the title is conferred :giggle:

 

[Minette]

I don't know. Where were Michelle, Amanda and Gina when myriad neighbors and relatives came to castro's house when they were imprisoned there for decades? How about Jaycee Dugard when her perp's parole officer kept coming by?



Bravo. Beautiful post.



Neither do you. If you are insinuating that appearing triumphant, uncowed and courageous on the front page of a newspaper is fodder for her sick critics, that's their problem. If you are suggesting it gives fuel to the desperate arguments of Kibby's defense, I 100% disagree.

Certainly, the belief that this child should be protected from public scrutiny and should be allowed to maintain her privacy, is valid and well founded. If she were my child, I'd want to spirit her away from the public eye and protect her in a cocoon.

But what has been proven to help people, especially children, with trauma, is allowing them to have agency. Allowing them to have power over themselves and the decision-making when it comes to their dealing with society, is to give them back the voice that was taken.

Sure, adults wiser than they should oversee and guide them, but they need to be able to take the reins to a large degree.

Finally, I think we need to 100% stop with the societal attitude that victims need to be ashamed or that if they are not hiding, they didn't suffer enough. Abby has done nothing wrong here. She is the good guy. And she's showing the world that she was not destroyed.

To me, her photo is one of resilience, pride, determination, courage, strength, bravery, triumph and hope.

All I can say is, you go girl!!!

Gitana! Bravo!

 

[lauramags]

Has anyone found any information on NK's family??? Any siblings?... Just wondering

 

[Not Without Peril]

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2014/07/nate-kibby.html

Has anyone else seen this blog? There is a guy on there saying his stepdad and mom raised NK. The jornalist thanked him and asked to email him hisnumber so he can interview him. No response yet...

Yes, I am Samuel Ledyard on that blog. The blog is James Renner's. He is a journalist from Ohio and he is writing a book on Maura Murray, who went missing on February 9, 2004, from Woodsville, NH. Woodsville is fifty miles from Conway.

Like Abigail, Maura had dark hair and, like Abigail, she was last seen on foot prior to her disappearance (she had crashed into a snowbank and, due to the lack of reception in Woodsville, was unable to call AAA). Therefore, some of us wonder whether there is a connection between Abigail's abduction and Maura's disappearance. After all, Kibby, it has been reported, was obsessed with dark-haired women and drew pictures of them of with their wrists tied behind their backs.

I also have a blog on Maura; http://notwithoutperil.com/ .

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Has anyone found any information on NK's family??? Any siblings?... Just wondering

MSM has reported that he has a brother (he mentioned having one in a yearbook), though I can't remember the source. I know a bit more, but don't think we're allowed to share about family members in here.

ETA: the link:

From arrest reports it can be seen he lived with his father Wayne Kibby and his year book references a brother.
The North Conway home the family lived in was owned by Wayne's sister.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ss-crucial-chance-save-Abigail-Hernandez.html

 

[jf137]

The only picture that I have been able to find of Nate's father is in the UNH yearbook, and honestly, he looks very much like his son.

 

[jf137]

The source is the Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ss-crucial-chance-save-Abigail-Hernandez.html