NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

[Nameless Helper]

Could it be that the perp is deceased. Why would the barrels be left arrarently "out in the open" albeit apparently not very well traveled area? We're these barrels stored behind the store that burned? Could it be related to that fire? Has this been covered?

 

[Owutatangledweb]

I have not read this entire thread, just stumbled on it as I was doing other research. Has anyone considered Missing child Janice Pockett anywhere in this thread? I thought there was a likeness to these pictures.

 

[dotr]

Could it be that the perp is deceased. Why would the barrels be left arrarently "out in the open" albeit apparently not very well traveled area? We're these barrels stored behind the store that burned? Could it be related to that fire? Has this been covered?

Thinking of the barrels and why the bodies were put in them, I am reminded of a case in Ontario where the body of a murdered Chinese businessman was put in a barrel and dumped in lake, so that "his soul would not escape and haunt his killer/s."
Perhaps some kind of similar beliefs were acted on in this case?

 

[mrsward]

Sorry if this has already been posted.. some pictures of the scene
http://oakhillresearch.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/still-no-names-after-30-years.html?m=1

 

[carbuff]

Sorry if this has already been posted.. some pictures of the scene
http://oakhillresearch.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/still-no-names-after-30-years.html?m=1

That website also has some good articles that have appeared over the years. It looks like a great reference.

 

[imnotfussy]

A thought occurred to me last night that whoever this woman is probably disappeared before she gave birth to the 3 children (I'm assuming that she is the mother of all 3 children.). I've no doubt that this woman was a victim of domestic violence. I imagine the father of these 3 children, let's call him her partner, he would have orchestrated the same social isolation that is so common with most cases of domestic violence.

I did some calculations, the mother and children were said to have died somewhere between 1978 and 1985 (Doe Network has given those dates) and the first barrel with 2 body's in it was found in November 1985. If that is correct, the fact that the oldest child is likely to be between 6-10yo, then means that the eldest girl would have been conceived, at the earliest, around 1967 to 1971. So I then did a height
search on women with light brown hair that went missing around, or not long
before that time frame. I searched all women from 5'0" to 5'9", which is
slightly above and below the height range given for the mother as 5'2" to
5'7". She could have been pregnant at the time of her disappearance, or
just had a bf that her parent's disapproved of and gotten pregnant later, or
had parents that didn't approve of the idea of her dating. I think these
are the most likely scenario's. So having done this, I came up with
3 strong candidates for who she might be. One of whom looks like she is a
kidnapping victim by the sounds of her profile, but that could fit too ...
recognizing the Stockholme Syndrome effect could have been at play in that
scenario, ie. her sticking with her abuser as she's formed a dependency / attachment to him. I think the strongest contender's would be Cathy Marie MOULTON, then Mary Shotwell LITTLE. Interestingly all 3 women disappeared not too far from each other (in contrast to the size of the whole of the USA). Here are the comparison pictures:-

Cathy Marie MOULTON
http://doenetwork.org/cases/20dfme.html
Email Contact for Cathy Marie MOULTON

Vicki Lee LAMBERTON,
http://doenetwork.org/cases/737dfma.html

Mary Shotwell LITTLE (I look at Mary's nose and the end of it looks identical to the children's noses)
http://doenetwork.org/cases/556dfga.html

What do other people think? I've submitted these names and comparison photograph's to the forensic investigator dealing with this case.

 

[imnotfussy]

I just found the Namus entry for the mother

https://identifyus.org/cases/2174

and it appears that none of the 3 women's names, who I believe one of which will be the Jane DOE, are in the list of people previously checked out to be the Jane Doe or not. So as far as I'm concerned that is good news. Hopefully she still has surviving relatives.

 

[EmmaliLucia]

Vicke Lamberton has DNA in CODIS so if it was her it would have matched by now.

Cathy Marie Moulton has MtDNA available (Which is the exact type of DNA that Jane Doe has available) but I wasn't able to see if it's in CODIS or not, I would ask if I were you.

For some reason Mary Shotwell Little does not have any DNA on file but she does have fingerprints. I know she went missing a while ago but I did do a bunch of reading on her case and I thought they found blood in her car, I guess if it wasn't stored correctly then there would be no way to get DNA from it, but I also thought she had a sister, I wish they'd get her DNA in CODIS, I'm positive they've found her already but just haven't been able to match her to anyone.

 

[Wanting2Help]

(Sniped for space)

Vicke Lamberton has DNA in CODIS so if it was her it would have matched by now.

Vickie's profile only says DNA available so it is not clear which type. If it is not mtDNA there will NOT be an automatic rule out. They can only compare the same types of DNA. Jane Doe has mtDNA on file.

 

[EmmaliLucia]

(Sniped for space)


Vickie's profile only says DNA available so it is not clear which type. If it is not mtDNA there will NOT be an automatic rule out. They can only compare the same types of DNA. Jane Doe has mtDNA on file.

I know, I wish NAMUS would let you know other than Sample Submitted - Tests Complete. They do with the UIDs.

 

[imnotfussy]

Can someone explain to me how the different types of DNA testing work. I'm familiar with the terms and the concepts, but not how the storing and any matching or not that occurs in-house. If someone could maybe explain that to me and maybe give me some links to overviews of it, I'd be very grateful.

Fingerprints wouldn't be sufficient in this case is my understanding is that only skeletal remains were recovered.

I just don't see this mum and 3 daughter's as coming from overseas and being killed in the USA and the father alone leaving. It would have been world-wide news. I'm sure she has been declared missing and the kids were born after that. Maybe the media needs to promote that angle, with the blessing of law enforcement personnel, as everyone's looking for a family that went missing, not a woman who hadn't had children. I think if they do that, that they may then find their answer.

I'm quite ill at the moment so unable to do any more work for a while, but when I'm better I'll relook at the time frame and do calculations on the basis of the eldest child being a 6yo at the oldest and see if a search on the new time frame widens the net any more. If we could just find the mum, then the mum's real life picture could be used by forensic anthropologists to work out some of the feature's of the children's father. I never cease to be amazed at how they do all that.

 

[EmmaliLucia]

As I recall (And I'm not great at this so maybe one of the moderators that's been around forever can correct me)

MtDNA is Mitochondrial DNA, it's passed down through female relatives, so you have your maternal grandmother's Mitochondrial DNA, both males and females can have MtDNA. Nuclear DNA is inherited from both sides, both males and females have it. and then there's this thing called the Y-STR that is passed down solely from male reletives but only men have it.

According to Dr. Angela Williamson, who leads the center’s unknown victims identification team, scientists have also determined that the woman, who was between 23 and 33 years old, is maternally related to two of the girls, meaning she could be their mother or an older sister or aunt. The third child, who was between 2 and 4 years old, was not maternally related, Williamson said.

So they were able to get MtDNA from all the bodies, and the middle child (I don't know why they call her the third, she's not the youngest.) was not a biological child of the woman. She could be a step-mother, though.

 

[carbuff]

As I recall (And I'm not great at this so maybe one of the moderators that's been around forever can correct me)

MtDNA is Mitochondrial DNA, it's passed down through female relatives, so you have your maternal grandmother's Mitochondrial DNA, both males and females can have MtDNA. Nuclear DNA is inherited from both sides, both males and females have it. and then there's this thing called the Y-STR that is passed down solely from male reletives but only men have it.




So they were able to get MtDNA from all the bodies, and the middle child (I don't know why they call her the third, she's not the youngest.) was not a biological child of the woman. She could be a step-mother, though.

They call her the third because there are two girls who are related, and then she's the third, unrelated girl. So from that perspective, the relative ages don't matter.

 

[imnotfussy]

As I recall (And I'm not great at this so maybe one of the moderators that's been around forever can correct me)

Thanks for the explanation of DNA testing.


So they were able to get MtDNA from all the bodies, and the middle child (I don't know why they call her the third, she's not the youngest.) was not a biological child of the woman. She could be a step-mother, though.

So is the eldest child the one that wasn't related to the adult? If not, which one is not the woman's child? If it is the eldest child, then one plausible suggestion would be that the dad was a single father before he got together with the woman and had two kids with her. I wonder if all 3 children have the same paternal DNA.

 

[EmmaliLucia]

So is the eldest child the one that wasn't related to the adult? If not, which one is not the woman's child? If it is the eldest child, then one plausible suggestion would be that the dad was a single father before he got together with the woman and had two kids with her. I wonder if all 3 children have the same paternal DNA.

The middle child is the one that's not maternally related to her.

They don't know if the youngest and the eldest are her daughters, they could be sisters for all we know, but they are related according to Mitochondrial (Otherwise known as maternal) DNA.

 

[LucyOso]

So is the eldest child the one that wasn't related to the adult? If not, which one is not the woman's child? If it is the eldest child, then one plausible suggestion would be that the dad was a single father before he got together with the woman and had two kids with her. I wonder if all 3 children have the same paternal DNA.

BBM. This is a great thought. IF the middle child (third) child is not related to the woman and others, she could perhaps be a child of the father prior to getting together with the woman. It is quite possible this is a blended family situation. It is also possible the woman and 2 other children (perhaps born after the woman was last near her family) will not be reported missing due to that. It seems that trying to find a match for the middle (third) child could be the key to solving this if she is not related. Hope that makes sense...:twocents:

 

[ashyboy16]

I wonder if John Edward Robinson has been looked into? He was from Illinois, but his victims were found in metal drums/barrels in both Kansas and Missouri, Kansas where he was active in mainly. I know Kansas is far from New Hampshire, but I wonder if he ever was that way at one point. The woman and children fit in the timeline as far as I know.

 

[imnotfussy]

BBM. This is a great thought. IF the middle child (third) child is not related to the woman and others, she could perhaps be a child of the father prior to getting together with the woman. It is quite possible this is a blended family situation. It is also possible the woman and 2 other children (perhaps born after the woman was last near her family) will not be reported missing due to that. It seems that trying to find a match for the middle (third) child could be the key to solving this if she is not related. Hope that makes sense...:twocents:

I guess if the oldest and youngest children are maternally related ... I'm assuming that this adult woman would then have to be their mother ... maybe they were together, split up, he got together with another woman, got her pregnant, they then split up or that mother died, then she started helping him out with the child or they just got back together and one thing led to another and child number 3, their second child together was conceived.

I'm thinking the mum of child number 2 has to be either dead, or she's got severe drug problems or psychiatric problems.

I know when I provide fostercare for children the number one reason kids came into care was because the mother had mental health problems. If the guy was violent, she's probably glad to be rid of him and stays well clear of him.

 

[carbuff]

I wonder if John Edward Robinson has been looked into? He was from Illinois, but his victims were found in metal drums/barrels in both Kansas and Missouri, Kansas where he was active in mainly. I know Kansas is far from New Hampshire, but I wonder if he ever was that way at one point. The woman and children fit in the timeline as far as I know.

I reported this similarity a couple of years ago, and they did check it out. I guess nothing ever came of it, though.

 

[carbuff]

I guess if the oldest and youngest children are maternally related ... I'm assuming that this adult woman would then have to be their mother ... maybe they were together, split up, he got together with another woman, got her pregnant, they then split up or that mother died, then she started helping him out with the child or they just got back together and one thing led to another and child number 3, their second child together was conceived.

I'm thinking the mum of child number 2 has to be either dead, or she's got severe drug problems or psychiatric problems.

I know when I provide fostercare for children the number one reason kids came into care was because the mother had mental health problems. If the guy was violent, she's probably glad to be rid of him and stays well clear of him.

Well, no, while the relative ages would hint at mother and child, unfortunately "maternally related" doesn't let you assume that.

It means they're related through an uninterrupted line of female relatives, that's all.

They could all be sisters. They could be aunt and nieces, they could be cousins if the connection was through the female line. Genetically speaking, the adult woman could be their great-great-great-great grandmother for all they can tell from the mtDNA.

The mother-daughters-stepdaughter from husband's previous marriage makes the most sense, logically, but it's not the only possibility.