Found Deceased NH - Celina Cass, 11, Stewartstown, 25 July 2011 #10 *Arrest*

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There was an autopsy performed on Caylee even if it was just bones. Cause of death was undetermined because of the amount of time she was exposed to environmental conditions and all that was left were her tiny bones :(. MOD was homicide per Medical Examiner (Dr. G).

In Celina's case, unfortunately cause of death was undetermined as well and her death is ruled as suspicious which like you said could mean anything from murder, accident or suicide. Wish we had more answers.

BBM


I wouldn't say that "unfortunately cause of death was undetermined" I would say that "unfortunately cause of death has yet to be determined"


I don't think anyone has come forward and said "there is NO way we can determine how Celina died". The last I heard was the ME is waiting on tox reports to make the determination. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I read Joe's theory. With all respect to Joe, I don't think it makes sense. First, this guy's post-crime psychiatric issues would not automatically preclude him being considered competent to stand trial -- that's something for the psychiatric experts and lawyers and the judge to determine. Anyway, even if the guy is a gibbering lunatic (not saying he is) then worst case (from the police perspective, and again assuming he did it which I am by no means convinced of) he could be formally charged and the trial delayed until he becomes competent.

If they had the evidence to charge someone they would do so.

SFS&BBM

On a scale of 1 to 10 if I had to pick how likely WN would be declared not competent to stand trial if charged now, I would have to give it an 8 to 9 after seeing his episode of rolling around on the ground, knowing his prior history of mental illness when he was discharged from the Air Force, knowing he was already declared unfit to stand trial in a 2003 case in which he allegedly broke into an ex-girlfriend's home and threatened her and also knowing he is currently in the care of a mental hospital. If LE charged him now (considering he is the one) and he is found not competent to stand trial again, then the clock starts ticking. If he is not restored to being competent to stand trial within 12 months the charges would need to be dropped. I don't think that is something the AG's office wants to gamble with. My personal opinion is that they will wait until WN is released from where he currently is and than charge him if he is the one they know killed Celina. If not hopefully someone else will be charged once her death has been determined a homicide. It would also be a little unforgiving if they charged anyone with murder before ruling Celina was killed at the hand of another human being, especially if it turned out to be something else like suicide. So perhaps that is the hold up on charges being filed also.

As fast as the crime scene tape went up for the second time around the house after Celina's body was found speaks volumes to me. Impounding WN's truck after her body was found does also. WHY didn't they impound WN's truck when they impounded the other truck before she was found??? I think LE might have been looking at one person from the house early on and after her body was found there was evidence that pointed to someone else and that is why his truck was looked at.

JMO
 
I can't make any assumptions about anyones guilt at this point.

As odd as some may have found the SF actions after, I don't think that makes him guilty.

I also don't think the AG would still be calling for heightened vigilance if she felt it was the SF.

I think 2 things are more possible. One would be another person in that house.

The other, and I know some want to deny the possibility because of opinions in the press from 1 or 2 people, but I still think she could have snuck out that night and something happened from there.

I won't be passing any individual judgments until there is an arrest.
 
There was an autopsy performed on Caylee even if it was just bones. Cause of death was undetermined because of the amount of time she was exposed to environmental conditions and all that was left were her tiny bones :(. MOD was homicide per Medical Examiner (Dr. G).

My understanding (could well be incorrect) was that a traditional autopsy was impossible (as only bones remained) and the examination of the skeleton was largely completed by the Anthropologist Dr. John Shultz-- with the entire operation supervised by the medical examiner.

An autopsy report was released of course, and a cause of death given (Homocide by indeterminate means) given.

In Celina's case, unfortunately cause of death was undetermined as well and her death is ruled as suspicious which like you said could mean anything from murder, accident or suicide. Wish we had more answers.

Yes, from my reading it means "We don't know."

However, and this will be heartening for those hoping for justice in this case, undertermined can easily change. The ruling is a conclusion reached not just from an examination of the physical clues the body reveals, but also from the evidence surrounding the victim. To elaborate, based upon my reading:

In this case we have (based upon what we know) a dead girl discovered underwater. It is not always possible to determine if she was or was not dead when she entered the water, nor is it a simple matter in cases like this to determine if injuries to the body occured before or after death. Nor, apparently, does the manner in which the body was discovered lead to a "beyond a reasonable doubt" conclusion about the cause of death on the part of the medical examiner. Lacking a mechanism of death and a reasonable conclusion as to cause, a ruling of undetermined is appropriate.

For example, in the case of Caylee Anthony, the girl was reported missing 30 days after she apparently went missing. Her skeleton was found in a swamp months later, with evidence of duct tape covering her face. The Doctor's involved in examining her were unable to determine the exact mechanism of death with absolute certainty; but the duct tape, failure to report, and disposal of the body led them to rule that the cause of death was a homocide based upon this reasonable doubt standard.

In other cases (see the links I posted above) it is apparently all too common in cases of suicide for the medical examiner to issue a finding of undertermined, based on nothing more than uncertainty about the situation surounding the death and sensitivity to the family. If the question is "Why is this person dead" then, in cases of apparent suicide, the answer they seem to arrive at a disproportionate amount of the time, is "Welll... we are not really sure."

Which is NOT to say that I believe Celina's death was a suicide. In Celina's case it is important to keep in mind that they may have a very good idea as to the mechanism of death but lack only some additional information, as additional evidence becomes available it is possible that this ruling could change. After reading up on this further I believe I now understand why the Medical Examiners office felt a toxicology report was so important.

NOTE: I AM NOT AN EXPERT OR EVEN KNOWLEGABLE IN THIS FIELD!!!!
 
As far as I can remember, Celina's death, so far was never ruled undetermined nor inconclusive, it was said pending tox reports and other investigating.
It was also stated that the condition of the body both in the water and out of the water made it suspicious.
It was said the were trying to determine where the body was put in the water, IMO either where it was found or another location and traveled to the location it was found, no mention of where she might have fell or jumped in the water. I don't think they were trying to say, Celina put herself in the water.
I will be totally shocked if the manner of death comes back anything other than homicide. Cause of death might be tricky, because of the length of time she was in the water.
IMO things found with the body, will determine it being ruled homicide.
It has been reported that KM's truck has been released back to him, I don't believe it has been reported that WN's truck has been released.
 
I just read that one of the Noyes relatives watched the 23 yr. old live in being taken from the new Colebrook Apt by two men in white shirts and ties, large guns in shoulder holsters, in an unmarked vehicle and drove to the Colebrook PD. Hope this is maybe an indication something is happening.
 
I just read that one of the Noyes relatives watched the 23 yr. old live in being taken from the new Colebrook Apt by two men in white shirts and ties, large guns in shoulder holsters, in an unmarked vehicle and drove to the Colebrook PD. Hope this is maybe an indication something is happening.

If true, very interesting.
Where did you see this?
Thanks.
(don't post link if it is someone's FB though.)
 
It is a FB page. She lives in Colebrook and has family next door to the new apt. I believe it is true. This lady seems on the up and up and is just sick about the case. I hope this is something to do with the case and not for some unrelated violation. She says the car they rode in is still at the Colebrook PD. She also said that she could not tell if the 23 yr old was cuffed because he was on the other side of the car and she could not see and say for sure.
 
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/na...__celina_cass_death/srvc=home&position=recent


Tips, money continue to flow in Celina Cass’ death

Tips to investigators and donations to a reward fund continue to flow as New Hampshire officials try to unravel how an 11-year-old Stewartstown girl died.

Lead prosecutor Jane Young says investigators in recent days received a dozen new tips and an additional $2,300 in reward money in the case of Celina Cass of Stewartstown.

(Snipped)

An autopsy failed to pinpoint the cause and manner of her death and investigators hope to have the results of toxicology tests sometime this week.
 
It is a FB page. She lives in Colebrook and has family next door to the new apt. I believe it is true. This lady seems on the up and up and is just sick about the case. I hope this is something to do with the case and not for some unrelated violation. She says the car they rode in is still at the Colebrook PD. She also said that she could not tell if the 23 yr old was cuffed because he was on the other side of the car and she could not see and say for sure.

You can add a link to the FB page if you want. Linking to FB is allowed, just not quoting word for word. You can however paraphrase FB posts.
 
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/na...__celina_cass_death/srvc=home&position=recent


Tips, money continue to flow in Celina Cass’ death

Tips to investigators and donations to a reward fund continue to flow as New Hampshire officials try to unravel how an 11-year-old Stewartstown girl died.

Lead prosecutor Jane Young says investigators in recent days received a dozen new tips and an additional $2,300 in reward money in the case of Celina Cass of Stewartstown.

(Snipped)

An autopsy failed to pinpoint the cause and manner of her death and investigators hope to have the results of toxicology tests sometime this week.


I wish we knew if this was true-that cause and manner of death have NOT been determined, rather than just not announced...this sounds pretty definite though.
 
Thank you Joe Friday, not sure what I can and can't do on here and have tried to be very careful.
 
Thank you Joe Friday, not sure what I can and can't do on here and have tried to be very careful.

If you don't know how to add the link to WS let me know and I will try and help.

Heck I will just tell you now in case you don't know and since I'm dying to see that information.

  1. Highlight the web address of the of the FB page your looking at. Do this by left clicking on the web address on your browser making it turn blue.
  2. Then right click on the highlighted address and left click on "copy"
  3. Left click your mouse into the WS editor where you normally write a post
  4. Then right click on your mouse
  5. Left click on "paste"
  6. Then submit your post with anything else you would like to say. The link should appear for everyone else to see.
 
BBM


I wouldn't say that "unfortunately cause of death was undetermined" I would say that "unfortunately cause of death has yet to be determined"


I don't think anyone has come forward and said "there is NO way we can determine how Celina died". The last I heard was the ME is waiting on tox reports to make the determination. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You can interpret it the way you want. IMO, the autopsy results did not determine cause of death and therefore it is undetermined.

==========

An autopsy failed to pinpoint the cause and manner of her death and investigators hope to have the results of toxicology tests sometime this week

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/na...__celina_cass_death/srvc=home&position=recent

Authorities are waiting for toxicology results in the death of Celina Cass before issuing their findings. The initial autopsy came back inconclusive.

http://lezgetreal.com/2011/08/cause-of-celina-cass-death-still-unknown/
 
You can interpret it the way you want. IMO, the autopsy results did not determine cause of death and therefore it is undetermined.

==========

An autopsy failed to pinpoint the cause and manner of her death and investigators hope to have the results of toxicology tests sometime this week

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/na...__celina_cass_death/srvc=home&position=recent

Authorities are waiting for toxicology results in the death of Celina Cass before issuing their findings. The initial autopsy came back inconclusive.

http://lezgetreal.com/2011/08/cause-of-celina-cass-death-still-unknown/

I have only heard JY say that the results of the autopsy are "PENDING". You can interpret that as you may, but she never said the autopsy came back inconclusive and she never said the autopsy failed to pinpoint the cause and manner of her death. Those words seemed to arise in the press and forums based on her statement that the results are pending.
 
I just read that one of the Noyes relatives watched the 23 yr. old live in being taken from the new Colebrook Apt by two men in white shirts and ties, large guns in shoulder holsters, in an unmarked vehicle and drove to the Colebrook PD. Hope this is maybe an indication something is happening.


That would fit with what I've been thinking all along.
 
You can interpret it the way you want. IMO, the autopsy results did not determine cause of death and therefore it is undetermined.

==========

An autopsy failed to pinpoint the cause and manner of her death and investigators hope to have the results of toxicology tests sometime this week

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/na...__celina_cass_death/srvc=home&position=recent

Authorities are waiting for toxicology results in the death of Celina Cass before issuing their findings. The initial autopsy came back inconclusive.

http://lezgetreal.com/2011/08/cause-of-celina-cass-death-still-unknown/

Yes you can interpret it the way you want. Hopefully after the tox results are returned the COD can be determined and will be announced. Like the MSM report say "Authorities are waiting for toxicology results in the death of Celina Cass before issuing their findings"

For all we know Celina might of died of a drug overdose. The person with her at the time could have freaked out and placed her dead body in the river. Maybe this won't turn out to be a violent or sexually motivated crime most are thinking about after all.

JMO
 
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