NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[walkingdeadgirl]

One of my biggest regrets about this case is the fact that he deleted that voicemail. I understand why he did it and I sympathize completely with his pain, but I would love to hear for myself if that was really Maura crying on the other end or not. I would think that it would be weird if Red Cross left a voicemail with young female crying on it (and a HUGE coincidence) but I guess we just don't know and if the sound was muddled maybe it wasn't a human sound at all. Confirming that was Maura or not would really change how I feel about what happened in the hours after the accident. But, I guess there is no way anyone will ever know.

Right. We will never know for sure. Other people who heard it said it sounded like a person breathing while walking or cold, and his cell phone was notorious (per his mother) for picking up in a way where the caller didn't know the phone had been answered. I guess it goes straight to recording without a message or something. I tend to lean towards the belief that it wasn't Maura, and just an unfortunate coincidence. I think they just desperately want it to have been her, and so they are convinced it is.

As far as deleting the message, I can't understand it in any way. If you think something happened to your girlfriend, even if the evidence has been released back to you, how could you get rid of anything that may help to find her later? Just as DNA is saved for years in case of scientific advances, maybe a way would come to light to trace that call. JMO, but I would keep everything until my missing person was found. I will confess when I first read about this case, before I researched it at all, the deletion of the message coupled with a few other things made me suspicious indeed. I suppose that shows you can make a story out of anything.

 

[Laughing]

Right. We will never know for sure.

As far as deleting the message, I can't understand it in any way. If you think something happened to your girlfriend, even if the evidence has been released back to you, how could you get rid of anything that may help to find her later?

JMO, but I would keep everything until my missing person was found.

I agree completely.

I have answering machine tapes from the 1980's (whoops no way to play them) and saved voice mails from my Dad.

I can see carefully removing the battery & wrapping that phone up & charger up & keeping it.

I cannot see deleting the message.

 

[Jane Birch]

Yes, I was even agreeing out loud, to a passing cat.

Haha! Nice.

 

[scoops]

Right. We will never know for sure. Other people who heard it said it sounded like a person breathing while walking or cold, and his cell phone was notorious (per his mother) for picking up in a way where the caller didn't know the phone had been answered. I guess it goes straight to recording without a message or something. I tend to lean towards the belief that it wasn't Maura, and just an unfortunate coincidence. I think they just desperately want it to have been her, and so they are convinced it is.

As far as deleting the message, I can't understand it in any way. If you think something happened to your girlfriend, even if the evidence has been released back to you, how could you get rid of anything that may help to find her later? Just as DNA is saved for years in case of scientific advances, maybe a way would come to light to trace that call. JMO, but I would keep everything until my missing person was found. I will confess when I first read about this case, before I researched it at all, the deletion of the message coupled with a few other things made me suspicious indeed. I suppose that shows you can make a story out of anything.

The phone message was turned over to police right away and they analyzed it and came back and said it was simple PHONE STATIC, no person, no voice, no wimpering, no message.

Sharon Rausch failed to mention (maybe convienently enough) that part of the story concerning the phone message on the ID Disappeared show.

 

[Fireweed]

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-one/24475018

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-two/24486306

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-three/24474932

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-four/24474990

 

[Lolacat]

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-one/24475018

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-two/24486306

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-three/24474932

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-four/24474990

Interesting! This is probably the most balanced/honest telling of the story Ive seen so far. I liked the fact that they explored all of the possibilities and focused more on the facts of the case rather than spending the entire program in some misty-eyed homage to Maura's *perfect life*.

 

[Fireweed]

I thought it was slightly hilarious how the two private investigators working on the case had absolutely no more insight into the case than the people here have. I was relieved when it was said that they work pro bono. When they first came on, I was like, hey maybe these guys know something. Nope. They know nothing. We here sitting at home thinking about this in our free time actually know more than those guys. They said they prowl these boards looking for a killer, but really I am betting it is to get some help. How can a professional working this case not have any new information or theories? Also do two middle aged men really have all that much insight into the mind of a 21-year-old girl? This is my issue with private detectives. They are mostly retired police detectives. They have lived a completely different life than someone like Maura.

I understand why both the PIs and LE are saying it is more likely than not that Maura is dead (given passage of time, etc), but they can give no explanation as to how and when that happened. I am not entirely sold on Renner's tandem theory, but at least he has a good explanation for it that fits in with the facts of the case.

Finally, I do not want to be sexist, but I really wish more women were actually working on this case in a professional way. Men and women think differently (nothing wrong with that),and I think it is a hindrance to this case to not have any women going over the events. Take the Jaycee Lee Duggard case: for some reason, none of Garridos male probation officers thought there was anything wrong, but two female cops immediately sniffed him out as a sketchy dude and absolutely knew there was something strange about the girls he had with him. It has been my experience over the years that men do not have a much of a "sketchy dude" alarm as women do.

I am just gonna bet that those two PIs, who are the same age and generation and Fred Murray, totally took everything that Fred had to say as truth. Why? Because men of that generation who used to be cops are guys who like being in control (just like Fred), and so they think they know anything and everything about their children, and that there is just no way a person they have control over is being subversive. Basically you have two PIs who identify with Fred, when what you need is a PI who identifies with Maura.

So in conclusion, based upon the interviews with the professionals working the case that we saw, I can very clearly see now why this will never get solved. It is all men who have no idea what Maura was going through who refuse to think outside the box. Fred wants to know why nothing was done in the first 36 hours? This is why, Fred. This is why...

 

[Lolacat]

Well said, Fireweed!

 

[Nordicpete]

Well said, Fireweed!

I absolutely concur. Fireweed really hits it on the nail here IMHO.

 

[scoops]

I thought it was slightly hilarious how the two private investigators working on the case had absolutely no more insight into the case than the people here have. I was relieved when it was said that they work pro bono. When they first came on, I was like, hey maybe these guys know something. Nope. They know nothing. We here sitting at home thinking about this in our free time actually know more than those guys. They said they prowl these boards looking for a killer, but really I am betting it is to get some help. How can a professional working this case not have any new information or theories? Also do two middle aged men really have all that much insight into the mind of a 21-year-old girl? This is my issue with private detectives. They are mostly retired police detectives. They have lived a completely different life than someone like Maura.

I understand why both the PIs and LE are saying it is more likely than not that Maura is dead (given passage of time, etc), but they can give no explanation as to how and when that happened. I am not entirely sold on Renner's tandem theory, but at least he has a good explanation for it that fits in with the facts of the case.
Finally, I do not want to be sexist, but I really wish more women were actually working on this case in a professional way. Men and women think differently (nothing wrong with that),and I think it is a hindrance to this case to not have any women going over the events. Take the Jaycee Lee Duggard case: for some reason, none of Garridos male probation officers thought there was anything wrong, but two female cops immediately sniffed him out as a sketchy dude and absolutely knew there was something strange about the girls he had with him. It has been my experience over the years that men do not have a much of a "sketchy dude" alarm as women do.

I am just gonna bet that those two PIs, who are the same age and generation and Fred Murray, totally took everything that Fred had to say as truth. Why? Because men of that generation who used to be cops are guys who like being in control (just like Fred), and so they think they know anything and everything about their children, and that there is just no way a person they have control over is being subversive. Basically you have two PIs who identify with Fred, when what you need is a PI who identifies with Maura.

So in conclusion, based upon the interviews with the professionals working the case that we saw, I can very clearly see now why this will never get solved. It is all men who have no idea what Maura was going through who refuse to think outside the box. Fred wants to know why nothing was done in the first 36 hours? This is why, Fred. This is why...

Fred is so caught up (even to this day) in what police did in the first 36 hours (IMO) because he knows that was the window in which police could've still had a shot at finding his daughter alive.

I repeat, Fred's actions that some have dubbed mysterious and elusive over the years (IMO) are of someone who has known from very early on that his daughter was no longer alive.

 

[scoops]

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-one/24475018

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-two/24486306

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-three/24474932

http://www.wcvb.com/chronicle/missing-segment-four/24474990

I wasn't impressed at all with this Chronicle piece.

The basic theme I got from it at the end was that no one wants to believe something bad happened to Maura because they just can't fathom that, so therefore Maura must still be alive somewhere.

Hope and wishful thinking are great ... but then there is that thing called reality.

Also on a potential suicide theory, they spent about three seconds entertaining it.

(I'm mocking and paraphrasing here)

"Some people even believe Maura may have come to New Hampshire to take her own life."

Fred Murray --- "No, Maura didn't commit suicide."


"Well that solves that .... Now onto the next theory."


In reality:


Lt. Scarinza in a interview done a few years ago by James Renner:

"What I was told was that the first thing out of Fred's mouth was, 'She's gone to the North Country to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old squaw."

And

" I take into consideration the family's thought that she was coming up to kill herself. But what was the initial catalyst to make her want to do that? And what happened when she got here? My sense is that she is not still alive."

 

[Tssiemer]

I wasn't impressed at all with this Chronicle piece.

The basic theme I got from it at the end was that no one wants to believe something bad happened to Maura because they just can't fathom that, so therefore Maura must still be alive somewhere.

Hope and wishful thinking are great ... but then there is that thing called reality.

<snip>

I agree. It's a lot "nicer" to think this beautiful girl who
still had a bright future ahead of her is still alive. But then again... is she considered "alive" until a body is found? :fence:

 

[scoops]

I agree. It's a lot "nicer" to think this beautiful girl who
still had a bright future ahead of her is still alive. But then again... is she considered "alive" until a body is found? :fence:

Technically, she is still considered missing and not dead.

I believe her father sincerely believes his daughter is no longer with us.

 

[dogperson]

Fireweed, I agree that often we women pick up on the creepy dudes quicker than men do, and I think maybe it's because we have a built-in instinct for that kind of thing for our self-protection. I've been around a few male customers at work that kind of made my skin crawl but my male boss thought there was nothing wrong with them. Later I found out things about them that proved I was right to be wary of them.
My personal feelings are 80% at least that Maura is no longer with us. I had always believed more in the "death by misadventure" scenario than anything else, although a random killer or even someone who followed her from her last stop isn't out of the question. I'm still puzzling over whether she put the rag in the tailpipe or if someone else did, and whether it was an attempt at suicide. I remember when I was about her age there was a young teen couple who had gone parking and they had backed up against a snow bank and the snow covered their tailpipe, causing them both to die of carbon monoxide poisoning. If Maura's intent was to block the tailpipe then I would think she would have maybe tried to pack more stuff in there, or maybe even used some of the snow, but then again she may not have been thinking straight. She strikes me as a young woman on the verge of a sort of meltdown/anxiety collapse due to the bad luck with accidents, maybe being unhappy with school, etc. So I am still mostly going with the accidental death theory, but am not ruling out suicide, abduction, or starting a new life.

 

[Lolacat]

I wasn't impressed at all with this Chronicle piece.

The basic theme I got from it at the end was that no one wants to believe something bad happened to Maura because they just can't fathom that, so therefore Maura must still be alive somewhere.

Hope and wishful thinking are great ... but then there is that thing called reality.

Also on a potential suicide theory, they spent about three seconds entertaining it.

(I'm mocking and paraphrasing here)

"Some people even believe Maura may have come to New Hampshire to take her own life."

Fred Murray --- "No, Maura didn't commit suicide."


"Well that solves that .... Now onto the next theory."


In reality:


Lt. Scarinza in a interview done a few years ago by James Renner:

"What I was told was that the first thing out of Fred's mouth was, 'She's gone to the North Country to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old squaw."

And

" I take into consideration the family's thought that she was coming up to kill herself. But what was the initial catalyst to make her want to do that? And what happened when she got here? My sense is that she is not still alive."

I agree, it wasnt perfect. But I still reckon that "so far", its been more balanced than any other documentary we've seen yet. Firstly, they mentioned the credit card fraud which hasn't been mentioned by any other tv documentaries. Secondly, they sought opinions from people other than LE and maura's family- e.g. James. Thirdly, there were no prolonged or overly sentimental montages of Fred wringing his hands up and down route 112 which we've seen a million times before. No matter who interviews them, LE are going to say the same thing they've always said in the past so there wont be any surprises there. That will never change. So yeah, it wasnt perfect but I feel like at least it was moving in the right direction and starting to tentatively explore other possibilities than just wheeling out the same old tired formula that we've come to expect about Maura having the perfect life and then vanishing without a trace etc.

 

[Fireweed]

I really wish Fred Murray would be a little more sincere and say something like this: "At first I thought Maura had gone up there to commit suicide, but as time went by and we never found a body or any other clues that Maura had committed suicide, I changed my line of thought and decided that Maura was likely murdered."

Why lie? Why not say something like that? I mean, it is not at all unreasonable to have a different theory now than in the first few days she went missing.

And I am sure that the police now really wish they had spent the first 36 hours looking for Maura, but hindsight is 20/20. All they knew at the time was that a drunk driver was laying low to avoid a DUI, which I am sure happens all the time. They were thinking like men and did not really think through the danger she was in. The cops did not know if Maura knew someone up the road and went up there. They did not know if she made her way back to Haverhill and got a hotel, or, since it was 7:30 went to restaurant and called someone to pick her up. They probably thought that is what happened, and that she would come back the next day to get her car and get a lesser charge than a DUI.

BTW, I still do not understand why Fred is so obsessed with finding out why the cops did not search in the first 36 hours. First of all, I think I laid out a pretty good reason as to why they did not, but mainly I do not see how it will bring his daughter back. It just seems like a very strange obsession to me. I understand being angry about it, but how on earth will knowing why they did not do a thorough search the first 36 hours make a damn bit of difference is totally beyond me. Look, the cops fudged up. They missed the only opportunity to (maybe) save Maura. But knowing why they screwed up has absolutely nothing to do with finding Maura.

 

[dogperson]

I really wish Fred Murray would be a little more sincere and say something like this: "At first I thought Maura had gone up there to commit suicide, but as time went by and we never found a body or any other clues that Maura had committed suicide, I changed my line of thought and decided that Maura was likely murdered."

Why lie? Why not say something like that? I mean, it is not at all unreasonable to have a different theory now than in the first few days she went missing.

And I am sure that the police now really wish they had spent the first 36 hours looking for Maura, but hindsight is 20/20. All they knew at the time was that a drunk driver was laying low to avoid a DUI, which I am sure happens all the time. They were thinking like men and did not really think through the danger she was in. The cops did not know if Maura knew someone up the road and went up there. They did not know if she made her way back to Haverhill and got a hotel, or, since it was 7:30 went to restaurant and called someone to pick her up. They probably thought that is what happened, and that she would come back the next day to get her car and get a lesser charge than a DUI.

BTW, I still do not understand why Fred is so obsessed with finding out why the cops did not search in the first 36 hours. First of all, I think I laid out a pretty good reason as to why they did not, but mainly I do not see how it will bring his daughter back. It just seems like a very strange obsession to me. I understand being angry about it, but how on earth will knowing why they did not do a thorough search the first 36 hours make a damn bit of difference is totally beyond me. Look, the cops fudged up. They missed the only opportunity to (maybe) save Maura. But knowing why they screwed up has absolutely nothing to do with finding Maura.

If I were LE I would have thought the same thing. Somebody had an accident because they were drinking and they did not want to be charged with DUI.

 

[scoops]

I really wish Fred Murray would be a little more sincere and say something like this: "At first I thought Maura had gone up there to commit suicide, but as time went by and we never found a body or any other clues that Maura had committed suicide, I changed my line of thought and decided that Maura was likely murdered."

Why lie? Why not say something like that? I mean, it is not at all unreasonable to have a different theory now than in the first few days she went missing.

And I am sure that the police now really wish they had spent the first 36 hours looking for Maura, but hindsight is 20/20. All they knew at the time was that a drunk driver was laying low to avoid a DUI, which I am sure happens all the time. They were thinking like men and did not really think through the danger she was in. The cops did not know if Maura knew someone up the road and went up there. They did not know if she made her way back to Haverhill and got a hotel, or, since it was 7:30 went to restaurant and called someone to pick her up. They probably thought that is what happened, and that she would come back the next day to get her car and get a lesser charge than a DUI.

BTW, I still do not understand why Fred is so obsessed with finding out why the cops did not search in the first 36 hours. First of all, I think I laid out a pretty good reason as to why they did not, but mainly I do not see how it will bring his daughter back. It just seems like a very strange obsession to me. I understand being angry about it, but how on earth will knowing why they did not do a thorough search the first 36 hours make a damn bit of difference is totally beyond me. Look, the cops fudged up. They missed the only opportunity to (maybe) save Maura. But knowing why they screwed up has absolutely nothing to do with finding Maura.

I agree with much of what you say.


I do think the obsession with the first 36 hours is very telling (If I have a daughter missing and it is still possible she could be alive, my attention would be mostly on that and not anything else IMO).

The only thing I think I might differ from you on this post (on thinking) is that I don't believe fred really believes a "local dirt bag" grabbed up his daughter. I think he still believes what he believed when he first heard his daughter went missing.

The searches (publically) with cameras on and rolling by Fred (IMO) weren't about finding his daughter alive right there (IMO). They were about showing the public that he is left alone to search for his daughter's remains while the police sit on their thumbs.

 

[walkingdeadgirl]

The phone message was turned over to police right away and they analyzed it and came back and said it was simple PHONE STATIC, no person, no voice, no wimpering, no message.

Sharon Rausch failed to mention (maybe convienently enough) that part of the story concerning the phone message on the ID Disappeared show.

I find Disappeared can be very interesting in how it chooses to present facts.

I found posts where she addresses the phone message on different boards; portions were copied here as well...I would have to check my notes to see which thread...I am a scatterbrain. She basically dismisses LE's findings as flat out wrong on both the sounds and the trace and insists they KNOW it was Maura. That makes it even stranger that it was deleted, if they thought LE was wrong, IMHO.

 

[walkingdeadgirl]

I really wish Fred Murray would be a little more sincere and say something like this: "At first I thought Maura had gone up there to commit suicide, but as time went by and we never found a body or any other clues that Maura had committed suicide, I changed my line of thought and decided that Maura was likely murdered."

Why lie? Why not say something like that? I mean, it is not at all unreasonable to have a different theory now than in the first few days she went missing.

And I am sure that the police now really wish they had spent the first 36 hours looking for Maura, but hindsight is 20/20. All they knew at the time was that a drunk driver was laying low to avoid a DUI, which I am sure happens all the time. They were thinking like men and did not really think through the danger she was in. The cops did not know if Maura knew someone up the road and went up there. They did not know if she made her way back to Haverhill and got a hotel, or, since it was 7:30 went to restaurant and called someone to pick her up. They probably thought that is what happened, and that she would come back the next day to get her car and get a lesser charge than a DUI.

BTW, I still do not understand why Fred is so obsessed with finding out why the cops did not search in the first 36 hours. First of all, I think I laid out a pretty good reason as to why they did not, but mainly I do not see how it will bring his daughter back. It just seems like a very strange obsession to me. I understand being angry about it, but how on earth will knowing why they did not do a thorough search the first 36 hours make a damn bit of difference is totally beyond me. Look, the cops fudged up. They missed the only opportunity to (maybe) save Maura. But knowing why they screwed up has absolutely nothing to do with finding Maura.

Part of it could be due to his need to control everything, and without them admitting to any wrongdoing, he still doesn't have control of that time period. Part of it may also be about money. If LE admitted they should have looked for her right away, could Fred have Maura declared legally dead and file a wrongful death lawsuit? Putting forth the idea that she was disoriented from the accident and walked perhaps miles into the wilderness before succumbing to the elements.